WhitePony
Member
The state of North Carolina won't issue me a CCW Permit, because the law says I'm 10 months too young. Thanks to everyone at The High Road, however, I found another way to legally carry concealed here in NC, and I wanted to share my story.
BACKGROUND
I'm 20 years old--on my own since I age 16--I've been in college four years, and I've been shooting handguns since I was 8 years old. My father bought me my first pistol (Davis .380 ACP) when I was 12, and soon returned it for a better gun (Smith & Wesson 6904 9mm) when I was 13.
I've been in college since age 16, working two jobs and going to school full time since age 17--the same year I joined the NRA--and I registered to vote and joined the Libertarian Party when I tuned 18. I'm a journalism major with dreams of law school, a lifelong gun enthusiast and a political junky. Vote for Ron Paul.
Needles to say, I'm pro-gun to the core, and I love to shoot.
The idea of a CCW Permit first occurred to me when my Dad was robbed at gunpoint outside a Wal-Mart by three convicted felons in 2002.
Three years later, I took a job as a cashier in a one-cop town, a mile from the highway, in a restaurant that bankrolled $3000 cash per shift. As I counted the bills into neat stacks around 11pm each night, it sickened me to think that the back door was open, the silent alarm was broken, and I'd be the one getting shot if we were robbed.
That summer I finished my term at community college and transferred to a four year school in a different town. I took a job waiting tables nearby, and would have been robbed in the parking lot the same week, if I hadn't locked my car doors just seconds earlier.
I lived on campus, so I didn't have my gun, but I got it back when I moved off campus a year later. I joined a local range and started shooting again after what felt like years. I couldn't stop thinking how nice it'd be to have a CCW. I'd studied the law enough to develop tricks like removing the slide and putting the lower receiver in the trunk when traveling (NC has no specific laws about regarding transporting vs. carrying, but they do have laws about what actually constitutes a firearm), but I thought it was ridiculous that I had to, when I knew I was better trained than even some law enforcement (for one thing, my gun is CLEAN).
THE BEGINNING
I got so pissed one night, that just for the hell of it I started researching other states laws on sites like handgunlaws.us and usaconcealedcarry.com. The doctor says I'm Adult ADD, but I can research the hell of anything that interests me.
I discovered that most states have reciprocity (NC's permit is one of the best for that), and that some states only require you to be 18+ to get a CCW permit (Indiana, Texas, etc). I found that since reciprocity is so random and confusing, some states just issue Non-Resident permits, and some states even honor such permits under reciprocity agreements.
I went through the entire Non-Res .pdf document from handgunlaws.us, and found that of all the states that would issue me a Non-Res CCW at 18+, they all required that you own property in the state (SC, TX), live in a bordering state (OR), or have a previously existing permit (NH), except one: Maine. Maine will issue a "Non-Resident Permit to Carry Concealed Firearms" to anyone 18+ with a clean record, no mental health issues and "proof of handgun safety training and knowledge."
I almost gave up when I found that Maine permits are not honored in NC.
Then I remembered New Hampshire. I downloaded their application for a "Non-Resident Pistol/Revolver License." The application stated that unless I was a Vermont resident with a letter from my Sheriff (VT doesn't issue permits, since it has no laws against concealed carry), I needed to provide a copy of a valid CCW permit issued by my home state, or "...any other state."
"...any other state"
That phrase was my last hope.
A guy on northeastshooters.com posted a link from Pro-Gun NH's website which said that as of 2004, the state dept. ruled that a non-res CCW permit from another state qualified an applicant to receive a NH non-res CCW permit. Ironically, this is thanks gun-hating states like NJ and NY where it's difficult if not impossible to get a CCW, and residents instead get permits from places like Utah or Florida.
Personal accounts from THR affirmed that a non-res permit from somewhere else satisfied New Hampshire's requirement.
I finally had a plan.
THE PROCESS
I printed off the Maine non-resident application, filled it out, and copied all the documents I needed to submit (birth certificate, passport photos, etc).
I was only missing one: "Proof of Handgun Safety Training and Knowledge."
Nothing specified what exactly they wanted, so I searched until I found a guy on SigForums.com who had a ME Non-Res CCW Permit that said an NRA Basic Pistol Course certificate should work fine.
The gun ranges here only offer that course to those 21+, but since that's a business policy and not a law, I found an certified instructor on craigslist, explained my situation, and he agreed to give me the course.
After I passed the course, I copied the certificate, along with my annual safety cards from both ranges I frequent, one of which actually says "Annual Safety Certificate."
I sent my application packing to the Maine State Police: Gaming and Weapons Unit in Augusta, ME on 11/28/07.
I received my permit 84 days later.
I had already written the check for New Hampshire by the time I got the Maine permit. I made a copy of it and sent in my application the next day.
I received my permit 47 days later (thanks again to everyone here who kept me updated on the delay).
AFTERMATH
I have the utmost respect for the men and women in law enforcement, and I think 98% of them are fine, upstanding people whom I thank for their service. I think cops are stereotyped unfairly 99% of the time, because only the overzealous ones harass you for no reason, while the rest are out there keeping you safe and minding their own business.
With that said, I've had more than my share of experiences with the overzealous type. I've been pulled over eight times in two years and never ticketed, illegally searched once, had my unloaded guns confiscated from the trunk of my car, and then returned, because the police officer "made a mistake."
I'm terrified of getting pulled over. It scares the !#@$ out of me, and I know that some officers don't know the law. That's why I carry the same law book that they do in my car.
Unlike Colorado, Michigan, Florida and other states that specifically state that non-resident permits are NOT covered under reciprocity, North Carolina's law simply states:
§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.
(a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state.
The state of Georgia, which honors non-res permits under reciprocity, specifically states in their laws that while non-resident permits are fine or non-residents, a resident of Georgia must have a Georgia permit.
North Carolina's law says no such thing.
I printed off a copy of this law with a highlighted section, along with the official list reciprocity states from the NC Dept. of Justice website and put them in my car. Since under NC Law, I can legally possess a handgun at age 18, but not buy one until I'm 21, I returned my Smith & Wesson to my Dad, and had my mom buy another gun for me, a Glock 23.
I then had a legal document drawn up and signed, authorizing me to me in possession of her property, since I knew someone might challenge whether or not I legally acquired the gun, even though I was old enough to possess it. A copy of this also went into my car.
The day I got the NH permit, I took to the sheriff's office and asked if they recognized it. After a lot of confusion, a detective told me that since I was an NC resident, my NH permit was NOT honored, and I needed to obtain an NC permit. I asked him to produce an official document stating as much...and after thirty minutes, he was still unable to, but said that's what he'd been told, what his sergeant had been told, and to call the NC Attorney General's Office.
On the first call, I spoke with an Assistant Attorney General, who said the matter depended on whether or not New Hampshire intended for non-resident permits to be included in the agreement, and to call them and find out.
I called and spoke with a Detective in the New Hampshire AG's office, who was extremely confused how I'd obtained a NH permit, and called me back to say that he didn't know and to check with the North Carolina authorities.
Frustrated, I called the State Director of the NRA for advice, and he laughed hysterically, thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard, and gave me the number for the firearms specialist in the AG's Office.
I called, and he was very short, questioned why I had a New Hampshire permit and not a North Carolina one, and I told him that if the state would issue me one, I'd take it, but they won't.
He confirmed twice that regardless, my NH non-resident permit is 100% honored under NC law, and that any sheriff that told me otherwise was wrong, and to have them give him a call.
I called the Sheriff's Dept., and this time spoke with the Deputy who assists the sheriff in issuing NC permits. Her response was,
"I wish you remembered who told you that your permit isn't honored, because honestly, I don't see the problem with it. Remember, we're street cops. We don't really know the law about this kind of thing, but as long as someone produces a permit that's not expired, I usually don't even check the list. I think you chances of actually being cited for this, when you have TWO permits, are slim to none, but you're welcome to come in and get a letter from the sheriff explaining it if you'd like."
I then called an attorney, to ask if I could have this thrown out, if I were actually cited. His response was,
"This would almost certainly be thrown out before it ever went to trial. Only a really overzealous DA would ever try to prosecute you on a charge like that, and even if they did, you can beat it in court. So don't worry about it."
I'm making an appointment to see the sheriff next week.
THOUGHTS
This saga all started by researching laws, and reading personal accounts here on THR. Thanks everyone, for your insights, advice and opinions. I didn't even register on this forum until today, but the information I got from it was invaluable, and I certainly put it to good use. Thanks again.
BACKGROUND
I'm 20 years old--on my own since I age 16--I've been in college four years, and I've been shooting handguns since I was 8 years old. My father bought me my first pistol (Davis .380 ACP) when I was 12, and soon returned it for a better gun (Smith & Wesson 6904 9mm) when I was 13.
I've been in college since age 16, working two jobs and going to school full time since age 17--the same year I joined the NRA--and I registered to vote and joined the Libertarian Party when I tuned 18. I'm a journalism major with dreams of law school, a lifelong gun enthusiast and a political junky. Vote for Ron Paul.
Needles to say, I'm pro-gun to the core, and I love to shoot.
The idea of a CCW Permit first occurred to me when my Dad was robbed at gunpoint outside a Wal-Mart by three convicted felons in 2002.
Three years later, I took a job as a cashier in a one-cop town, a mile from the highway, in a restaurant that bankrolled $3000 cash per shift. As I counted the bills into neat stacks around 11pm each night, it sickened me to think that the back door was open, the silent alarm was broken, and I'd be the one getting shot if we were robbed.
That summer I finished my term at community college and transferred to a four year school in a different town. I took a job waiting tables nearby, and would have been robbed in the parking lot the same week, if I hadn't locked my car doors just seconds earlier.
I lived on campus, so I didn't have my gun, but I got it back when I moved off campus a year later. I joined a local range and started shooting again after what felt like years. I couldn't stop thinking how nice it'd be to have a CCW. I'd studied the law enough to develop tricks like removing the slide and putting the lower receiver in the trunk when traveling (NC has no specific laws about regarding transporting vs. carrying, but they do have laws about what actually constitutes a firearm), but I thought it was ridiculous that I had to, when I knew I was better trained than even some law enforcement (for one thing, my gun is CLEAN).
THE BEGINNING
I got so pissed one night, that just for the hell of it I started researching other states laws on sites like handgunlaws.us and usaconcealedcarry.com. The doctor says I'm Adult ADD, but I can research the hell of anything that interests me.
I discovered that most states have reciprocity (NC's permit is one of the best for that), and that some states only require you to be 18+ to get a CCW permit (Indiana, Texas, etc). I found that since reciprocity is so random and confusing, some states just issue Non-Resident permits, and some states even honor such permits under reciprocity agreements.
I went through the entire Non-Res .pdf document from handgunlaws.us, and found that of all the states that would issue me a Non-Res CCW at 18+, they all required that you own property in the state (SC, TX), live in a bordering state (OR), or have a previously existing permit (NH), except one: Maine. Maine will issue a "Non-Resident Permit to Carry Concealed Firearms" to anyone 18+ with a clean record, no mental health issues and "proof of handgun safety training and knowledge."
I almost gave up when I found that Maine permits are not honored in NC.
Then I remembered New Hampshire. I downloaded their application for a "Non-Resident Pistol/Revolver License." The application stated that unless I was a Vermont resident with a letter from my Sheriff (VT doesn't issue permits, since it has no laws against concealed carry), I needed to provide a copy of a valid CCW permit issued by my home state, or "...any other state."
"...any other state"
That phrase was my last hope.
A guy on northeastshooters.com posted a link from Pro-Gun NH's website which said that as of 2004, the state dept. ruled that a non-res CCW permit from another state qualified an applicant to receive a NH non-res CCW permit. Ironically, this is thanks gun-hating states like NJ and NY where it's difficult if not impossible to get a CCW, and residents instead get permits from places like Utah or Florida.
Personal accounts from THR affirmed that a non-res permit from somewhere else satisfied New Hampshire's requirement.
I finally had a plan.
THE PROCESS
I printed off the Maine non-resident application, filled it out, and copied all the documents I needed to submit (birth certificate, passport photos, etc).
I was only missing one: "Proof of Handgun Safety Training and Knowledge."
Nothing specified what exactly they wanted, so I searched until I found a guy on SigForums.com who had a ME Non-Res CCW Permit that said an NRA Basic Pistol Course certificate should work fine.
The gun ranges here only offer that course to those 21+, but since that's a business policy and not a law, I found an certified instructor on craigslist, explained my situation, and he agreed to give me the course.
After I passed the course, I copied the certificate, along with my annual safety cards from both ranges I frequent, one of which actually says "Annual Safety Certificate."
I sent my application packing to the Maine State Police: Gaming and Weapons Unit in Augusta, ME on 11/28/07.
I received my permit 84 days later.
I had already written the check for New Hampshire by the time I got the Maine permit. I made a copy of it and sent in my application the next day.
I received my permit 47 days later (thanks again to everyone here who kept me updated on the delay).
AFTERMATH
I have the utmost respect for the men and women in law enforcement, and I think 98% of them are fine, upstanding people whom I thank for their service. I think cops are stereotyped unfairly 99% of the time, because only the overzealous ones harass you for no reason, while the rest are out there keeping you safe and minding their own business.
With that said, I've had more than my share of experiences with the overzealous type. I've been pulled over eight times in two years and never ticketed, illegally searched once, had my unloaded guns confiscated from the trunk of my car, and then returned, because the police officer "made a mistake."
I'm terrified of getting pulled over. It scares the !#@$ out of me, and I know that some officers don't know the law. That's why I carry the same law book that they do in my car.
Unlike Colorado, Michigan, Florida and other states that specifically state that non-resident permits are NOT covered under reciprocity, North Carolina's law simply states:
§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.
(a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state.
The state of Georgia, which honors non-res permits under reciprocity, specifically states in their laws that while non-resident permits are fine or non-residents, a resident of Georgia must have a Georgia permit.
North Carolina's law says no such thing.
I printed off a copy of this law with a highlighted section, along with the official list reciprocity states from the NC Dept. of Justice website and put them in my car. Since under NC Law, I can legally possess a handgun at age 18, but not buy one until I'm 21, I returned my Smith & Wesson to my Dad, and had my mom buy another gun for me, a Glock 23.
I then had a legal document drawn up and signed, authorizing me to me in possession of her property, since I knew someone might challenge whether or not I legally acquired the gun, even though I was old enough to possess it. A copy of this also went into my car.
The day I got the NH permit, I took to the sheriff's office and asked if they recognized it. After a lot of confusion, a detective told me that since I was an NC resident, my NH permit was NOT honored, and I needed to obtain an NC permit. I asked him to produce an official document stating as much...and after thirty minutes, he was still unable to, but said that's what he'd been told, what his sergeant had been told, and to call the NC Attorney General's Office.
On the first call, I spoke with an Assistant Attorney General, who said the matter depended on whether or not New Hampshire intended for non-resident permits to be included in the agreement, and to call them and find out.
I called and spoke with a Detective in the New Hampshire AG's office, who was extremely confused how I'd obtained a NH permit, and called me back to say that he didn't know and to check with the North Carolina authorities.
Frustrated, I called the State Director of the NRA for advice, and he laughed hysterically, thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard, and gave me the number for the firearms specialist in the AG's Office.
I called, and he was very short, questioned why I had a New Hampshire permit and not a North Carolina one, and I told him that if the state would issue me one, I'd take it, but they won't.
He confirmed twice that regardless, my NH non-resident permit is 100% honored under NC law, and that any sheriff that told me otherwise was wrong, and to have them give him a call.
I called the Sheriff's Dept., and this time spoke with the Deputy who assists the sheriff in issuing NC permits. Her response was,
"I wish you remembered who told you that your permit isn't honored, because honestly, I don't see the problem with it. Remember, we're street cops. We don't really know the law about this kind of thing, but as long as someone produces a permit that's not expired, I usually don't even check the list. I think you chances of actually being cited for this, when you have TWO permits, are slim to none, but you're welcome to come in and get a letter from the sheriff explaining it if you'd like."
I then called an attorney, to ask if I could have this thrown out, if I were actually cited. His response was,
"This would almost certainly be thrown out before it ever went to trial. Only a really overzealous DA would ever try to prosecute you on a charge like that, and even if they did, you can beat it in court. So don't worry about it."
I'm making an appointment to see the sheriff next week.
THOUGHTS
This saga all started by researching laws, and reading personal accounts here on THR. Thanks everyone, for your insights, advice and opinions. I didn't even register on this forum until today, but the information I got from it was invaluable, and I certainly put it to good use. Thanks again.
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