How I Carry Concealed LEGALLY at Age 20 in a 21+ State

[yinyangdc]

Heck, I wish I was that clever now.

 

[Talonap]

Laws exist to govern those too irresponsible to govern themselves, and I'm not. The law is not supreme. My rights are.

Wonderful attitude. If this dosn't sound like someone who thinks they are "special" and "above the law", I don't know what does.

If there's anything truly wrong with what I'm doing, then it's the law that's wrong, and not me, because I'm operating within it.

I never said the law was, "right", or "supreme". Just that looking for ways to get around them because you think they should not apply to you, is not the way to go.

Well it's like my Dad says: "Gun laws usually make sense to anyone who's never been a victim of violent crime."

He was robbed at gunpoint five years ago, by three convicted felons.

Have you ever been robbed at gunpoint?

Yes, I have - by someone who thought the laws should not apply to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
So let's all ignore ALL the laws in our states, look for every loophole, and give ccw to 10 year olds because they want to "defend 'their' own life".

The difference between me and a 10-year-old is that I've been on my own and supported myself for the past four years.

It's amazing how people can twist other's words to try to defend their own position.This was to demonstrate more of a, "Where do you draw the line" thing. Sorry you didn't get it.

I've demonstrated responsibility to carry a gun in defense of myself, the same way an 18-year-old in the military has demonstrated his or her competency to carry a gun in defense of YOUR FREEDOM.

How have you done this? By taking the CCW course? Have you been in the military? Don't dare start telling me you are anything NEAR the same if you have not. I was in the Navy for 14 years defending YOUR FREEDOM to be able to argue and, yes, to be able to sneak around the law.

If you really think the law is always right, then you're saying that I'm old enough to defend your right to criticize me, with an assault rifle, but not old enough to defend MYSELF, with a handgun.

Again, I never said the law is always right. I've found age has little to do with, "Defending", anything. I've known 30 year olds who I wouldn't trust with a butter knife. And again, where do you draw the line? My wife and I think EVERYTHING should be 18 – CCW, drinking, etc. The point is, it isn’t.

Are you offended that I'm taking responsibility for my own safety instead of depending on the police for it? If that's the case, then become a cop and volunteer to be my bodyguard 24/7 and I'll consider not carrying anymore.

No, I'm offended that you keep talking about how the law is so bad that you need to find ways around it, and then compare yourself to people in the military who defend the way of life you are working against. Again LAWS ARE NOT PEFRFECT! The SYSTEM is far from perfect. I live in Illinois and hope to be leaving soon because of the lack of CC. In this state, I have been trying to get the law changed as many others have. I feel it is not working because of the brainwashing of the people by the antis and the media, and of course the anti Cook County board and Mayor Daley. Major lack of common sense. So, I'm leaving. I don't like the laws here, so I'm going to somewhere I CAN defend myself when not in my home. It would be a sad day indeed if everyone felt certain laws were bad and had to find ways around them – legal or not.

To me you seem like a person who just can’t wait for their birthday to get their “present”. And when you find a way to do it, you have to say, “Nyah, Nyah, I got it anyway, so there!” (Stamping foot) I know I’m not going to convince you, or apparently many others here, that you were wrong, so I won’t try.

I've worked for the NC State Gov. on two separate occasions, and trust me, they don't "hurry" to do anything. Besides...it's the principle of the thing.

It's good your trying to ge things changed, but you have to realize that it takes time. Again I see a lot of impatience here.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by biggiesmalls
the citizens of the states that issued you a permit should be very offended because you used their laws to bypass a law in your own state. "

Bullsh*t.

I paid both states good money to process those applications, and have made it a goal to visit them before my permits expire. They broke even on their processing fees, and gained tourism they wouldn't have otherwise had. What on earth do they have to be offended about?

What happened to, "It's the principle of the thing?" You can say it's ok because you gave them money? Perhaps the suggestion that other people may value their "principles" also is alien to you.

You are absolutely right, the LAW WORSHIP here is the real problem.

No, the real problem here is lack of respect for the law, not, "Law Worship". You keep twisting things around in your mind. No one said anything about worshiping the law. No one said the law is perfect. It seems you have a need to twit people's words to justify yourself. Keep up the good part of what you are doing to change the law, but stop boasting that you are such a good person for finding a way around it. The applause you found on this board seems like a knee-jerk reaction to someone, "Beating the system". Of course each has a right to their opinion, but my opinion is that this could encourage someone to look for ways to get around other, "Unjust", laws also. Until it lands them in prison.

 

[WhitePony]

I never said the law was, "right", or "supreme". Just that looking for ways to get around them because you think they should not apply to you, is not the way to go.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing by moving out of Illinois?

Apparently you don't want their laws should apply to you, so you're moving somewhere that they don't anymore.

It's amazing how people can twist other's words to try to defend their own position.

Then you should write your words in a way that can't be twisted, the same way Georgia and Arizona wrote their CCW laws in ways that couldn't be twisted by 18-20 year olds using non-resident permits to legally carry concealed.

If NC really had the intention of preventing people from carrying under the system I'm using, they would have written their laws that way the same way other states did.

The Deputy Attorney General who signed the reciprocity agreement with New Hampshire doesn't think I'm doing anything wrong, and neither does the Sheriff's Deputy in my county who issues NC permits.

How have you done this? By taking the CCW course? Have you been in the military? Don't dare start telling me you are anything NEAR the same if you have not. I was in the Navy for 14 years defending YOUR FREEDOM to be able to argue and, yes, to be able to sneak around the law.

Yes, I have taken a CCW course and qualified on a firing line.

No, I haven't been in the military, but I file my taxes every year to help pay the salaries of the men and women in the Navy that defend your right to sneak out of a state because you don't like the laws--while arguing to me that I should be patient and wait for the laws in my own state to change.

If you really believe I should do that, then why don't you stick around in Illinois and wait for them to pass CCW laws?

To me you seem like a person who just can’t wait for their birthday to get their “present”. And when you find a way to do it, you have to say, “Nyah, Nyah, I got it anyway, so there!” (Stamping foot) I know I’m not going to convince you, or apparently many others here, that you were wrong, so I won’t try.

And to me, you sound like someone living in a state that doesn't have birthday parties that's jealous of someone living in a state does, because I got my present early and you don't get presents at all...

...and then when I do, you have to stamp YOUR foot and say "Wahhhh, that's not fair!"

I know I'm not going to convince someone who doesn't get birthday presents AT ALL that I was justified in getting mine early, so I won't try

What happened to, "It's the principle of the thing?"

The "principle" of the law is that you should prove that you've been checked, cleared and trained by getting a permit before you carry a gun.

I have two of them.

If anything, I've upheld the principle twice as well as I would have just getting one NC permit.

Keep up the good part of what you are doing to change the law, but stop boasting that you are such a good person for finding a way around it.

I never said I was a good person for doing this, so please don't invent claims that were never made to justify your position.

Look, I'm not trying to brag about anything. The only reason I posted this thread was to help others who are treated unfairly by the system to FOLLOW THE LAW and still exercise their rights.



I apologize if I sound like an egotistical little b**ch. I really don't mean to. You raise some valid points, and I appreciate your criticism and concern, honest. I truly sympathize that you live in gun-hating Illinois, and would love to see you move somewhere like NC. We need people like you here!

All bickering aside, we're on the same team, and I respect what you have to say.

Also, thank you for your military service...sincerely. I wouldn't be able to exercise my first or second amendment rights if it weren't for the men like you who have served to defend freedom.

 

[Wes Janson]

Wonderful attitude. If this dosn't sound like someone who thinks they are "special" and "above the law", I don't know what does.

There's a nice quote here for that.

One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law. - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

In my view, any law that seeks to unjustifiably restrict one's constitutional rights is an inherently unjust law, and is itself a disgrace to the very concept of law and order. I would hope that all of us would consider ourselves above an immoral and unjust piece of legislation.

No, the real problem here is lack of respect for the law, not, "Law Worship". You keep twisting things around in your mind. No one said anything about worshiping the law. No one said the law is perfect. It seems you have a need to twit people's words to justify yourself. Keep up the good part of what you are doing to change the law, but stop boasting that you are such a good person for finding a way around it. The applause you found on this board seems like a knee-jerk reaction to someone, "Beating the system". Of course each has a right to their opinion, but my opinion is that this could encourage someone to look for ways to get around other, "Unjust", laws also. Until it lands them in prison.

Would you tell the same thing to a political dissident in another country, attempting to use the internet to get around a ban on communication? Or if a black man in the pre-1965 South "cheated" his way around a literacy test at the polls?

 

[Talonap]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
I never said the law was, "right", or "supreme". Just that looking for ways to get around them because you think they should not apply to you, is not the way to go.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing by moving out of Illinois?

Apparently you don't want their laws should apply to you, so you're moving somewhere that they don't anymore.

Half right. I don't want the laws to apply to me or anyone else in the state. But while I'm here, I'm not trying to get around them either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
It's amazing how people can twist other's words to try to defend their own position.

Then you should write your words in a way that can't be twisted, the same way Georgia and Arizona wrote their CCW laws in ways that couldn't be twisted by 18-20 year olds using non-resident permits to legally carry concealed.

If NC really had the intention of preventing people from carrying under the system I'm using, they would have written their laws that way the same way other states did.

The Deputy Attorney General who signed the reciprocity agreement with New Hampshire doesn't think I'm doing anything wrong, and neither does the Sheriff's Deputy in my county who issues NC permits.

Like I said, using loopholes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
How have you done this? By taking the CCW course? Have you been in the military? Don't dare start telling me you are anything NEAR the same if you have not. I was in the Navy for 14 years defending YOUR FREEDOM to be able to argue and, yes, to be able to sneak around the law.

Yes, I have taken a CCW course and qualified on a firing line.

No, I haven't been in the military, but I file my taxes every year to help pay the salaries of the men and women in the Navy that defend your right to sneak out of a state because you don't like the laws--while arguing to me that I should be patient and wait for the laws in my own state to change.

If you really believe I should do that, then why don't you stick around in Illinois and wait for them to pass CCW laws?

Paying taxes has nothing to do with actually being in the military. Leaving the State is not, “sneaking”. I never said you should wait for laws to change in your state, just not try and get around the ones already there. You already have CCW laws, you’re just not willing to wait for them to apply to you. You can feel free to move to another state also. I would not then say you were, “sneaking out”, just going to a place which more filled your needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
To me you seem like a person who just can’t wait for their birthday to get their “present”. And when you find a way to do it, you have to say, “Nyah, Nyah, I got it anyway, so there!” (Stamping foot) I know I’m not going to convince you, or apparently many others here, that you were wrong, so I won’t try.

And to me, you sound like someone living in a state that doesn't have birthday parties that's jealous of someone living in a state does, because I got my present early and you don't get presents at all...

...and then when I do, you have to stamp YOUR foot and say "Wahhhh, that's not fair!"

I know I'm not going to convince someone who doesn't get birthday presents AT ALL that I was justified in getting mine early, so I won't try

No, not jealous. Of course if would be good to have them here. I'm just amazed that someone can be encouraged to find ways around the law because of their impatience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
What happened to, "It's the principle of the thing?"

The "principle" of the law is that you should prove that you've been checked, cleared and trained by getting a permit before you carry a gun.

I have two of them.

If anything, I've upheld the principle twice as well as I would have just getting one NC permit.

If you would read my entire response, you would see I’m not referring to that.

Quote:
"Quote:Originally Posted by biggiesmalls the citizens of the states that issued you a permit should be very offended because you used their laws to bypass a law in your own state.

"Bullsh*t. I paid both states good money to process those applications, and have made it a goal to visit them before my permits expire. They broke even on their processing fees, and gained tourism they wouldn't have otherwise had. What on earth do they have to be offended about?

What happened to, "It's the principle of the thing?" You can say it's ok because you gave them money? Perhaps the suggestion that other people may value their "principles" also is alien to you.

I’m talking about the principles of the people whose laws you used to get around your own. People who, as biggiesmalls suggested, might and should be offended. Especially after you said it should be ok because you paid them for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonap
Keep up the good part of what you are doing to change the law, but stop boasting that you are such a good person for finding a way around it.

I never said I was a good person for doing this, so please don't invent claims that were never made to justify your position.

Look, I'm not trying to brag about anything. The only reason I posted this thread was to help others who are treated unfairly by the system to FOLLOW THE LAW and still exercise their rights.

Oops. Should have said something like, “Stop making yourself sound like you are such a good person…” Sorry

I apologize if I sound like an egotistical little b**ch. I really don't mean to. You raise some valid points, and I appreciate your criticism and concern, honest. I truly sympathize that you live in gun-hating Illinois, and would love to see you move somewhere like NC. We need people like you here!

No thanks. Trying for AZ – a lot less humidity, (except in monsoon season), is an added bonus. Old injuries play havoc in later years – dry air is good!

All bickering aside, we're on the same team, and I respect what you have to say.

Thanks for the respect it is appreciated and somewhat reciprocated. I can respect your passion for righting what you think is an unjust part of the law, but not your response to it. And thanks, but no thanks for being on the same team. Same, "Game", yes. We just don’t play the game by the same rules.

Also, thank you for your military service...sincerely. I wouldn't be able to exercise my first or second amendment rights if it weren't for the men like you who have served to defend freedom.

You’re very welcome. And my thanks to those who have served before and after me.
__________________

 

[Talonap]

To Wes Janson

Quote:
Wonderful attitude. If this dosn't sound like someone who thinks they are "special" and "above the law", I don't know what does.

There's a nice quote here for that.

Quote:
One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law. - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

In my view, any law that seeks to unjustifiably restrict one's constitutional rights is an inherently unjust law, and is itself a disgrace to the very concept of law and order. I would hope that all of us would consider ourselves above an immoral and unjust piece of legislation.

I would think it would be better to try to get things changed while being out of prison. There are better ways than breaking an unjust law to bring attention to it. The case of Heller vs D.C. comes to mind.

Quote:
No, the real problem here is lack of respect for the law, not, "Law Worship". You keep twisting things around in your mind. No one said anything about worshiping the law. No one said the law is perfect. It seems you have a need to twit people's words to justify yourself. Keep up the good part of what you are doing to change the law, but stop boasting that you are such a good person for finding a way around it. The applause you found on this board seems like a knee-jerk reaction to someone, "Beating the system". Of course each has a right to their opinion, but my opinion is that this could encourage someone to look for ways to get around other, "Unjust", laws also. Until it lands them in prison.

Would you tell the same thing to a political dissident in another country, attempting to use the internet to get around a ban on communication?

We’re not talking about other countries. However, don’t “dissident” fanatics use the internet to plan attacks on us? Isn’t that against some law? Hmmm just thinking about that… I guess it’s ok for them to do that.

Or if a black man in the pre-1965 South "cheated" his way around a literacy test at the polls?

Don’t see how someone could “cheat” a literacy test, but that’s a good example of how unjust laws can be changed.


__________________

 

[MarkDido]

The doctor says I'm Adult ADD, but I can research the hell of anything that interests me.

[rant]Once upon a time, a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD in a kid got you someone elses money courtesy of SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance)

Needless to say, parents were all over it loke a dog on a Dreamsicle.

Then Social Security ended that program.

More and more parents today are questioning the wisdom of drugging our kids who are still "diagnosed" as having ADD.

That's why you see lots more emphasis on "Adult ADD"

That Shrink's Lexus payment has to come from somewhere. [/rant]

 

[Flyboy]

Talonap, you still haven't answered my questions. The intent of the "Assault Weapons" ban was clear; do you think that the manufacturers and purchasers were wrong to exploit the "loophole" of complying with the letter of the law, even though it circumvented the intent?

 

[Talonap]

By Flyboy:

Talonap, you still haven't answered my questions. The intent of the "Assault Weapons" ban was clear; do you think that the manufacturers and purchasers were wrong to exploit the "loophole" of complying with the letter of the law, even though it circumvented the intent?

If I'm not mistaken, the "Grandfather Clause" was incorporated into the ban. Nothing "Loopholeish" about it.
__________________

 

[Flyboy]

I'm not referring to the grandfather clause, I'm referring to the continued production of military-style semiautomatic rifles by removing flash suppressors, telescoping stocks, and the like, when the stated purpose of the legislation was to end the production of such rifles completely. How many times did we hear the antis bleating that we were "using a loophole" to manufacture them?

So, which side are you on? Is strict compliance with the letter of the law "getting around" it "using loopholes?"

 

[Talonap]

By Flyboy:

I'm not referring to the grandfather clause, I'm referring to the continued production of military-style semiautomatic rifles by removing flash suppressors, telescoping stocks, and the like, when the stated purpose of the legislation was to end the production of such rifles completely. How many times did we hear the antis bleating that we were "using a loophole" to manufacture them?

So, which side are you on? Is strict compliance with the letter of the law "getting around" it "using loopholes?"

Sorry, didn't get that. Even though the ASB was federal legislation and not a state law, (apples to oranges), I’ll try to answer anyway. (As I’ve said, the OP always had the option of moving to another state if he did not want to wait for the CCW law to apply – a federal law encompasses the entire country.) Actually, with the 1994, "Assault Weapon Ban", the stated purpose of the legislation was NOT to ban the production of the rifles completely - only 19 of them and “copies” – those that had a combination of certain features and a detachable magazine which could hold more than 10 rounds. The stated ban was on these rifles, (some pistols and shotguns also), because of the stupid belief that certain aspects made them more, “Dangerous”. I don’t think there was any use of “Loopholes” by the manufacturers. The legislation clearly states that weapons with certain features were no longer to be made. They did not make them. Everyone complied with the new law. Period.

 

[Flyboy]

I would counter, then, to say that North Carolina's law doesn't forbid carriage of arms by those under twenty-one, merely that it forbids issuance of a permit to those under twenty-one.

And you and I both know that the intent of the AWB was to get rid of the entire style, it was just clumsily written--hence the changes in the renewing legislation. The antis learned from their mistake, and set out to correct it.

At the end of the day, you're either breaking the law, or you're not. It is vital that the laws be taken as written; if we start trying to enforce laws "as intended," rather than as written, we open the door to differences of opinion on intent, and that takes objectivity out of the legal process. If a law is found to be flawed in such a way as to create a legal means of circumvention, we should work to change the law, not harangue those who comply with the law.

 

[Talonap]

I would counter, then, to say that North Carolina's law doesn't forbid carriage of arms by those under twenty-one, merely that it forbids issuance of a permit to those under twenty-one.

And you and I both know that the intent of the AWB was to get rid of the entire style, it was just clumsily written--hence the changes in the renewing legislation. The antis learned from their mistake, and set out to correct it.

At the end of the day, you're either breaking the law, or you're not. It is vital that the laws be taken as written; if we start trying to enforce laws "as intended," rather than as written, we open the door to differences of opinion on intent, and that takes objectivity out of the legal process.

You insist on comparing apples to oranges. We were talking about "loopholes", not "intent" or "as written". No loopholes were exploited on the AWB. There were no "Reciprocal AWB permits".

If a law is found to be flawed in such a way as to create a legal means of circumvention, we should work to change the law, not harangue those who comply with the law.

I agree completely that flawed laws should be changed. But until they are, people should not use the poor way it is written to blatantly get around it. I never said what the OP did was illegal. Just that I felt he had exploited the loopholes in his state's law because he felt it should not apply to him. Just as you have the right to disagree, I have the right to express my opinion about the OP and his apparent impatience.

 

[DRZinn]

Apropos of nothing in particular:

"It's the law" is a lot like "just following orders."

No, I don't mean like the Nazis, I mean that "just following orders" is allowing someone else to decide what is right and wrong, and "it's the law" is exactly the same thing.

 

[Blackbeard]

Following the law as written should never be considered cheating, or expoiting a "loophole." The government intended to require all firearm purchases to go through NICS. Private sales subvert that intent. Is a private sale exploiting a loophole, or is it following the law as written?

If North Carolina didn't want him to carry, they should have banned posession of handguns for anyone under 21, period. They didn't.

We don't make the rules, we just play by 'em.

 

[wyocarp]

A lot of good hard work. I'm pretty sure that I don't agree with the 21 age requirement.

 

[brentn]

wow, your one smart cookie! You really really did your homework and legally obtained a handgun carry permit! Honestly, I think thats the coolest thing I have ever seen someone do regarding the legal system!
I wish we had people like you up here in my area, to find a legal way around our BS carry laws. Yes there is a form that you can fill out to legally carry a handgun in canada, problem is no one ever gets approved unless they work for an armored car company, or are a professional trapper in the sticks. Proof of employment, safety program completion etc is required. All decisions are then made by the CFO (cheif firearms officer for the province you reside). People who are in fear for their lives can legally get an ATC (authorization to carry) however I have never seen or heard of a person in this situation approved by the CFO. In fact, people who have direct proof that their lives are in danger by maniacs, stalkers, etc via police reports, still are not approved. I've seen court cases in which the judge rules that the CFO had no reason not to issue an ATC but then the case gets passed on to federal court in which they wait and wait and wait...

just a little angry about the whole situation personally. Mostly because you have to be a victim already in order to be applicable, and even then you are not approved.

 

[Art Eatman]

Certainly has wandered away from the intent of theopening post...