how is this not a SBR?

[-Jake-]

If you shoot it from your shoulder then you are using the brace for a use it was NOT approved for. The brace was not approved as a stock, it was approved as a brace, when you use it as a stock you are using it in an illegal manner on an AR pistol. End of story.

 

[Trueno]

If you shoot it from your shoulder then you are using the brace for a use it was NOT approved for. The brace was not approved as a stock, it was approved as a brace, when you use it as a stock you are using it in an illegal manner on an AR pistol. End of story.

phhhhht!


So, if I shoot an AR pistol with the buffer tube propped up against my shoulder that means I'm using the buffer tube in an illegal manner?

t

 

[-Jake-]

phhhhht!


So, if I shoot an AR pistol with the buffer tube propped up against my shoulder that means I'm using the buffer tube in an illegal manner?

t

We are not talking about the buffer tube.

We are talking about an additional ADD ON product, not what is on the weapon, required for operation or any mechanical parts. The buffer tube is the buffer tube, end of story. an AR pistol is an AR pistol, buffer tube or not. Its like saying that using the mag well for your weak hand is like using a vertical fore grip, but its not, its the magwell.

The ATF paperwork says it was approved as a stabilizing brace, end of story.

I'm sure you think those "solvent traps" are a good idea too

 

[fireside44]

I think fireside is concerned about the "beat the rap, but not the ride" aspect.

Exactly what I am concerned about.

As for the DA not being "on your side?" I don't buy that. You aren't going to be prosecuted for this. You won't even be held any longer than it takes for them to verify the authenticity of the ATF opinion. A state DA isn't going to try you for a violation of federal law that ISN'T a violation of federal law.

There are no test cases so I don't see how you can say that with surety. As Jake said, it is designed as a brace, so what happens if you are stopped by a LEO while using it as a buttstock? Must the owner of such a device use it as it is designed, or does using it outside the design parameters render the letter useless in court? This is also my concern.

 

[Trueno]

We are not talking about the buffer tube.

We are talking about an additional ADD ON product, not what is on the weapon, required for operation or any mechanical parts. The buffer tube is the buffer tube, end of story. an AR pistol is an AR pistol, buffer tube or not. Its like saying that using the mag well for your weak hand is like using a vertical fore grip, but its not, its the magwell.

Maybe you should contact the ATF and have them check into that?

The ATF paperwork says it was approved as a stabilizing brace, end of story.

Apparently not, as even though the ATF approved and Sig is in full production, people still wanna beat that horse under the guise of "but but what if...".



This all reminds me of the whining 24/7 for days on end about SlideFire stocks.

t

 

[Trueno]

If you shoot it from your shoulder then you are using the brace for a use it was NOT approved for. The brace was not approved as a stock, it was approved as a brace, when you use it as a stock you are using it in an illegal manner on an AR pistol. End of story.

Okay, let's try it this way: Prove your claim.

Cite ATF regs or even some ordinance on the books in some podunk hamlet in the middle of the desert.

t

 

[Trueno]

I think fireside is concerned about the "beat the rap, but not the ride" aspect. I.E.: you'll be detained and maybe even arrested while the cops sort it out. That's always possible. Having a copy of the ATF opinion letter on hand is not a bad idea. Not exactly a "walk free" card, but certainly could put a stop to some silliness.

Anything is a "possibilty".

t

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A state DA isn't going to try you for a violation of federal law that ISN'T a violation of federal law.

We had a big dust up a legislative session or so back, that it is already against the law in Tennessee for a state agent or agency to enforce a federal law or regulation unconstitutional under the state or federal constitution (the feds would have to come in and enforce it without state assistence). I seriously doubt a state prosecutor would try someone for a non-crime especially with a ATF FTB letter saying the brace is legal.

That brace is about the size of the remaining butt on a "Mare's Leg" pistol, made and sold as a pistol with federal ATF approval. And the vestigal butt on the mare's leg is more for one handed balance in my view (same purpose as the round arc of butt on the the sawed-off shotgun used by James Caan in "El Dorado").

Having a copy of the ATF opinion letter on hand is not a bad idea. Not exactly a "walk free" card,....

People have been detained until the cops determined a odd gun was legal. Never happened to me but I still keep copies of the ATF FTB letter I got on my original pre-WWI C96 with detachable shoulder stock (accurate replica of original stock) in my range case and bag. having an ATF letter would avoid having to twiddle thumbs while a determination was made.

 

[Sam1911]

Must the owner of such a device use it as it is designed, or does using it outside the design parameters render the letter useless in court? This is also my concern.

Nope. The law covers possession and/or registration of a particular item. NOT how you then USE that item.

Therefore, there is no crime here -- AT ALL.

Perhaps if you go back to the actual law that applies to Title II firearms (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/subtitle-E/chapter-53) you'll see how it is worded. Nothing about USE. All about POSSESSION.

There are no test cases so I don't see how you can say that with surety. As Jake said, it is designed as a brace, so what happens if you are stopped by a LEO while using it as a buttstock?

If he even knows that there are special laws for short rifles, which many don't, and he notices your gun and wants to make an investigation, he will instigate a process to find out if you're in lawful POSSESSION of that weapon. That's what the law covers. If you can possess it, you can use it for any purpose you want.
...


Uh...is this where I'm supposed to write "End of Story" to illustrate that I've proved my point?

 

[fireside44]

Perhaps if you go back to the actual law that applies to Title II firearms (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...e-E/chapter-53) you'll see how it is worded. Nothing about USE. All about POSSESSION.

Fair enough Sam, thanks for the info.

I will say it was interesting to see guys commenting on another forum, the membership thereof generally more brash and "ballsy" if you will when it comes to opinions and ownership of weapons, say they think that stock is a legal nightmare waiting to happen.

If he even knows that there are special laws for short rifles, which many don't, and he notices your gun and wants to make an investigation, he will instigate a process to find out if you're in lawful POSSESSION of that weapon. That's what the law covers. If you can possess it, you can use it for any purpose you want.

Therein lies the problem. "IF HE EVEN KNOWS". It's like a completely legit kit built sporting rifle that still has a safety lever that can move to the third position. I am aware some have endured some unsettling encounters due to not blocking the movement to that FA position, even though the rifle is completely legal. You aren't dealing with experts on firearms, generally speaking, when you are dealing with law enforcement. My argument is that I'm unwilling to risk a SERIOUS hassle (at best) because some law dog thinks my RIFLE (his point of view) barrel looks too short when it is in fact a pistol. I would rather not count on the unknowing law enforcement official keeping my freedoms intact when I can avoid any problems simply by not using the device to being with. Try arguing with a cop on the scene, best of luck. He calls his superior, also uneducated about these things and I'm supposed to trust a letter of a alphabet agency who have a rather negative rep for giving gun owners a hard time. You're probably taking a ride in the back seat and spending a few hours in the greybar motel until things get cleared up by the experts at the ATF, HOPEFULLY.

Uh...is this where I'm supposed to write "End of Story" to illustrate that I've proved my point?

I don't see why not.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

There is a problem when one grows up only reading very short stories.

Mike

 

[Sam1911]

Sure, there are some ways to mitigate risks of hassle from uninformed or overly opinionated law enforcement officers. Don't use this stock/brace thingy. Don't buy a "slidefire" kit or anything like it. Don't bump-fire any guns. Don't own a rifle that has a safety that can move to the "happy" position, even if that doesn't do anything. Don't buy those fake suppressor cans. Don't buy or create a legal PGO shotgun with barrels under 18", but with the overall length over 26", which aren't NFA items but look like they "should" be. While we're at it, don't open carry and don't carry concealed in any way that might be seen. Or in any location that is lawful but frowned upon. Don't carry a gun in a bar, even if it's legal in your state. Don't buy a firearm as a gift for someone else. Don't give handgun ammunition to a minor. Don't ship a firearm to another resident of your state. Don't sell a firearm without checking the buyer's ID. Don't ... don't ... don't...

There are a lot of things which are perfectly legal (in many/most states anyway) which some cops have a hard time accepting. If you really want to beat the "ride" as well as the "rap" you have to play very far inside the lines. Some may ask then what good is having rights you're afraid to use, but not everyone feels that way.

 

[fireside44]

I went back over and had a gander at the "brace" again today. Made sure to have a tape measure handy. Minimum length of pull is 7.5" from where the sling bracket is placed behind the receiver to the back of the buttstock. Here's what I didn't realize; The stock, er, brace, is adjustable. You can twist it back on the buffer tube as far as you like, though it takes a little doing. I didn't realize that was possible until my buddy demonstrated. I thought it was hard mounted.

You can adjust length of pull, or rather how far the brace will go back on your forearm, to the point where it can suit any user as a full functional buttstock. If you usually run on the third notch back on your six position adjustable you can also set this to give you the same length of pull.

As far as buttstock function, it is as good as a six position. Only drawback is the comb near the receiver side of the brace is flattened to allow for the charging handle to pull back with the stock all the way forward so it leaves a slight corner that goes into your cheek. Considering the minimal recoil from an 5.56 weapon it's no big deal just not quite as comfy as your standard six position fully shouldered. But hey, at least it don't go rattle rattle. Outside of that small caveat it works as good as your standard buttstock.

If Sam is right about not having to worry about the legal status then this item is a game changer because it allows anyone to have an SBR without the hassle and wait of NFA paperwork because it works as well as any basic six position stock I've tried.

 

[Trueno]

I went back over and had a gander at the "brace" again today. Made sure to have a tape measure handy. Minimum length of pull is 7.5" from where the sling bracket is placed behind the receiver to the back of the buttstock. Here's what I didn't realize; The stock, er, brace, is adjustable. You can twist it back on the buffer tube as far as you like, though it takes a little doing. I didn't realize that was possible until my buddy demonstrated. I thought it was hard mounted.

You can adjust length of pull, or rather how far the brace will go back on your forearm, to the point where it can suit any user as a full functional buttstock. If you usually run on the third notch back on your six position adjustable you can also set this to give you the same length of pull.

As far as buttstock function, it is as good as a six position. Only drawback is the comb near the receiver side of the brace is flattened to allow for the charging handle to pull back with the stock all the way forward so it leaves a slight corner that goes into your cheek. Considering the minimal recoil from an 5.56 weapon it's no big deal just not quite as comfy as your standard six position fully shouldered. But hey, at least it don't go rattle rattle. Outside of that small caveat it works as good as your standard buttstock.

If Sam is right about not having to worry about the legal status then this item is a game changer because it allows anyone to have an SBR without the hassle and wait of NFA paperwork because it works as well as any basic six position stock I've tried.

You should contact the ATF with your findings.

t

 

[chicharrones]

Have y'all seen this review of that pistol brace here with photos?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/08/18/sig-sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace-review/

 

[ny32182]

I wonder where you guys live that you see local cops worried about NFA items. They are federal laws only in most of the country. I have not once, ever, been asked by a police officer on duty whether any item I had was registered. Other non-cop shooters, very occasionally. Cops... never. Ever.

In the end I think this will go the way of the Atkins Accellerator deal, and what happened there... ATF tracked down as many owners as possible to let them know it was no longer legal, right? They did not send swat teams in to whisk everyone away to secret re-education camps and prosecute for 10 years in the pen. They just ruled them illegal and the owners lost some property value.

That would be my primary concern. If (when) it is ruled to be an SBR, can the stock be taken off easily while the registration paperwork goes through? Or can the stock just be discarded and the pistol function like an AK pistol after that? I wouldn't want to be in postion to lose ~$1k in property value at the whim of an opinion change at the ATF.

Just get a registered SBR. It isn't that hard. All the stuff designed to skirt NFA laws, like the slidefire, this; it is all suboptimal junk for lack of a better word; with better options available to so whatever it is that you want to do with it.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

@SAM1911: Hear! Hear!

Mike

PS. My SB-15 is on order. A2 receiver extension arrived over weekend