How long does it take for lubricants to kill a primer

[Hummer70]

I conducted a test for the government back in 1990 to determine such. Took about 7000 rounds and laid out rounds with primers exposed removed from the cartons. Bullet down similar as to how they are carried in a weapon. I sprayed each lubrican sample's round's primers once with the variations identified on the picture below. (top row). I took what we had in the bunker as it was a pretty good selection and shot them from weapons with a known acceptable striker energy. 50 rounds of each ammo was fired each test day so the same sample size was utilized every time. You will note once the misfires started they were continuous. The test was stopped early as we were getting so many misfires and several thousand rounds were sent to burning ground.
I had a test matrix designed where I would test to initially determine how long it would be in days before the lubricant would penetrate the primer waterproofing and kill the primer so look at the left hand column to determine the X number of days between tests.

I had not seen this data since 1991 time frame and have told a number of folks about it and I just happened to run across it the other day looking for data for something else, photographed it this morning and posting it here. The ammo with the water on it I sprayed daily as it dried up daily. Of course the lubricants did not dry up.

Think of it this way, you rarely get to see what your tax money pays for which is why I kept the data all these years never dreaming we would have computer technology like we do now. Hope you guys enjoy it.

 

[hdwhit]

Unfortunately, I can't read the photograph. It is too small and too dark.

 

[cfullgraf]

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

I think I figured out most of the failure abbreviations but you might want to make a list so folks can understand the chart easier.

 

[hdwhit]

Hummer70 wrote:
Think of it this way, you rarely get to see what your tax money pays for which is why I kept the data all these years never dreaming we would have computer technology like we do now.

By the 1990's, everyone in the Federal Government who needed one had access to a computer and stand-alone database and spreadsheet applications. I was a Federal LEO in the early 1990's and so knew first-hand what my tax money was paying for in the way of computer technology by the 1990's and it was better than what appears to be on the photograph presented.

 

[hdwhit]

Hummer70 wrote:
I sprayed each 500 round's primers once with the variations identified on the picture below. (top row). I took what we had in the bunker as it was a pretty good selection and shot them from weapons with a known acceptable striker energy. 50 rounds of each ammo was fired each test day so the same sample size was utilized every time. You will note once the misfires started they were continuous.

So, without a standardized spray protocol, you immersed 500 rounds in a particular contaminant and then test-fired only 10% of them - and without apparent regard to where the rounds were positioned within the spray - and you reached the conclusions shown in the barely visible chart?

Where is the standardization to ensure each primer received a equal amount of the potential contaminant? Where was the statistically valid sampling to ensure the validity (and projectability back onto the population) of the sample?

The test was stopped early as we were getting so many misfires and several thousand rounds were sent to burning ground.

So, the test was not run to its conclusion so that valid statistical inferences could be drawn?

I'm sorry, but the methodology as described is sufficient for me to conclude that whatever the unreadable photograph might show, the experimental methodology presented is 1) statistically valid and 2) is sufficient to support any conclusion as to primer malfunction.

 

[Hummer70]

We fired 50 rounds of five lube samples and one water per day (total 6) times five different ammo types and the blocks indicate how many misfires were obtained each day for that lubricant. so it appears we fired 1500 rounds per day on 12 different days thus we had a 18,000 round sample size and sustained:

69 Misfires The industry standard of ignition reliability is 1 misfire per million rounds.
5 Hangfires
23 Bullets stuck in bore
44 Squib Fires
6 Misfires fired on second strike.
Total of 147 undesirable events

Management made the decision to stop testing after the twelfth firing day as we were getting bullets stopping in bore (23) which stopped the parade and someone would have to take the weapon to gunsmiths to remove the stuck bullets which was about seven miles away and very time consuming. Basically the data we desired had been confirmed which was that when lubricants are improperly applied it was detrimental to ignition reliability regardless of the round from 9MM to 38 Spec to 357 Mag to 5.56 to 12 ga. and even though ammo had "waterproofed" primers, they still had a unacceptable performance when water was applied. As well weapons in holsters exposed to rain get soaked fairly often in certain parts of the country.

Revolvers/pistols are not noted for reliability in extreme conditions and known early on thus the flap holsters issued to cavalry and infantry to protect them from the elements from 1800s to date. For instance the Air Force issued 38 revolvers to ground controllers that were holstered in plastic (revolver shaped) bag with string closure. If I remember correctly the Air Force personnel conducted test and a revolver in blowing sand was good for about 60 seconds in blowing sand once removed from the bag.

Computers were just coming in and a typist did most of what we did. I never had a computer before I got a better offer and left. It was typed up and if I find a copy of the final report giving all the details I will post it but this is only the rough data taken in the field and from memory which by no means is perfect especially since I sustained a Grade 3 Concussion four years ago (wreck and knocked cold). I have had three moves since test and a lot of my stuff has not been opened as yet and may never be.

The ammo was not immersed and the case heads were visually examined to insure test materials filled the crevices around the primers as weapons examinations reports from the field showed some weapons had been lubed so heavily that when the bolt/cylinders were opened the bolt face was soaking wet from spray lubricant applications applied weeks/months prior.

In looking at the number of firings we obviously laid out much more ammo as 12 days at 50 rds per day per ammo type

MIS = Failure to fire
HF = Hangfire
SQB= Squib load meaning it barely made it out the barrel
BIB= Bullet stopped in bore which stopped everything. Had 23 of them.
SHT= Fired when round struck second time or SHOT (when) HIT TWICE

Sorry the photo quality is not better but sheet is yellowed from 17 years of storage.

 

[Rule3]

resized and rotated. Copy to your computer and you can enlarge it.

 

[Hummer70]

Rule 3, thank you so much for that. I just put the copy I have up against the screen and yours is 1/3rd wider than original document ! ! !! Thanks again.

 

[Captcurt]

All I know is when I started loading 38 spl and used standard dies I had several misfires that I contributed to lube. After I started using carbide dies the misfires ceased. Was it the lube? Think maybe so.

 

[Hummer70]

Quite possibly so. I know one lot of LC Match ammo that was destroyed for excessive misfires as it was found there was oil in the primer mix. I guess I shot up several thousand rounds of that lot and I think I had two. Now to a reloader destroying that much ammo was an atrocity with so few misfires. I would have taken it all and gone to pick it up! ! !! !

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Confirmation that Hoppes #9 cleaner (nitro powder solvent) does what I want it to do: it penetrates.

Also warns me that I had better wipe my chambers and breechface dry after cleaning with #9.

 

[Rule3]

Hoppes #9 is not the same now as it was back then,

 

[Sunray]

There's absolutely no guarantee any lube will kill a primer. Your data proves it.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Sunray is right, no guarantee. But if I'm reading that chart right, we should forget about lubricants and just immerse the darned things in water. Correct Hummer70?

 

[Hummer70]

Looks like Super Lube is good, did not kill the first primer. I think it is still made. Might just pick up a can to have around.

The lubes I use are Ed's Red (homebrew) and Mobil 1 0W20 synthetic motor oil and synthetic grease for cocking cams on striker and back of bolt lungs on bolt guns.

I wish I could remember more about this testing but part of a Grade 3 concussion is memory issues. I put all these type of things in 0ne Medical Catagory that covers everything. I have HMS.

 

[Ru4real]

Looking at the data, I draw this conclusion:

Primer sealants are not all equal. You get what you pay for. After a month, ALL primer sealants are susceptible to misfires due to oils.

Examples: Only the Remington 38 special cases were affected by water. So the sealant used by Remington was junk for that lot of ammo, for water. Similar conclusion can be drawn for Hoppes 9 and Federal 357.

Thank you Hummer70 for supplying the data.

 

[higgite]

Have primer compounds and sealants improved in the last 27 years?

 

[Walkalong]

If you're not soaking your rounds in oil, or submersing them in water, it's a non issue.

Ammo loaded for serious use that may be transported all over the world, stored in all kinds of conditions, can benefit from being sealed, as military ammo is.

 

[reddog81]

Looks like Super Lube is good

It looks like Super Lube is good at not killing primers... Not really an attribute I consider when choosing lubricants. An interesting study, but I would be inclined to view the substances that killed the primers as a better penetrates and lubricants.

 

[boom boom]

Looks like Super Lube is good, did not kill the first primer. I think it is still made. Might just pick up a can to have around.

The lubes I use are Ed's Red (homebrew) and Mobil 1 0W20 synthetic motor oil and synthetic grease for cocking cams on striker and back of bolt lungs on bolt guns.

I wish I could remember more about this testing but part of a Grade 3 concussion is memory issues. I put all these type of things in 0ne Medical Catagory that covers everything. I have HMS.

Thanks a lot for posting this material and on your other threads. I have learned quite a lot and I am sure others have too.

 

[boom boom]

Looks like Super Lube is good, did not kill the first primer. I think it is still made. Might just pick up a can to have around.

The lubes I use are Ed's Red (homebrew) and Mobil 1 0W20 synthetic motor oil and synthetic grease for cocking cams on striker and back of bolt lungs on bolt guns.

I wish I could remember more about this testing but part of a Grade 3 concussion is memory issues. I put all these type of things in 0ne Medical Catagory that covers everything. I have HMS.

On other matters, do you make and use the Ed's Red formula with lanolin or another substitute?

 

[someguy2800]

Have primer compounds and sealants improved in the last 27 years?

I'm curious about this as well. I recall reading something a few years ago where a guy dumped a bunch of live primers in jar of motor oil and left them in there for something like a month. If I recall after removing them from the oil and loading them into brass they all fired.

 

[Hummer70]

Did not see that?????

BoomBoom, I make up Ed's Red with only mercon dexron, mineral spirits, K1 Kerosene (hard to find) or off road diesel fuel.

Higgite,
Got a good friend who was head of the military match ammo facility. At the beginning of the season he called primer manufacture (won't say the name) and wanted one tray of every lot of large rifle match primers they had with over 80,000 in stock.

When he got them he went out and ran their known match loads on the FA Mount and through the crony and he said the difference in primer lots were amazing. He then ordered 80,000 of the best primers they were running that year.

Bottom line is imagine the variation you can get with marginal striker velocity/energy and couple that with so so primers and you have a formula for seeing your name way down on the score sheet ! ! ! ! ! !!

 

[higgite]

I'm curious about this as well. I recall reading something a few years ago where a guy dumped a bunch of live primers in jar of motor oil and left them in there for something like a month. If I recall after removing them from the oil and loading them into brass they all fired.

I have seen similar reports about modern primer compounds and sealants being impervious to just about everything encountered in every day life except a sharp impact with a pointy object.

 

[Hummer70]

Very interesting. I am thinking I have not bought any primers in over 5 to 8 years as I had a wreck in 2013 and haven't been shooting matches and had spinal surgery in the interim and now heading for a triple (maybe 4) bypass next month.

Wish I still had contacts in the ammo industry but all I had retired or died.