How many guns can you sell privately before the BATFE comes looking for you?

[Airman193SOS]

Someone on another board that I frequent is looking to liquidate his collection in anticipation of moving to New York City. He has between 10-15 firearms that he needs to sell. If he does them via private sale how many does he need to sell before the BATFE classifies him as a dealer without a FFL and puts the hit on him?

 

[JohnKSa]

That shouldn't be a problem.

Where you get into trouble is if you buy a lot of guns and then turn around and sell them almost immediately.

OR, if you are buying and selling enough that it looks like a business.

Selling off a personal collection (especially if you have a good reason like he does) is not going to raise any eyebrows.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

9-14.

Ok, not really. There is no magic number. If he is legitimately selling things out of his private collection and not doing so as a business, he should be fine.

That said, I am not a lawyer and you shouldn't take advice over the internet regarding legal matters.

 

[bobelk99]

If one is liquidating a collection, then one is not a dealer. Should be no issue.

Buying and reselling with intent to make a profit is acting as a dealer.

 

[benminer]

If they are being sold privately, how would the BATFE find out?

 

[natman]

I don't recall if this is Federal or California law, but I seem to remember a definite limit on handguns (the figure 6 per year springs to mind) but only "regular sales" for long guns.

A one time sale of 10-15 guns with no restocking shouldn't be considered conducting a business.



Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I am especially not your lawyer, take all legal advice on the internet with a grain of salt, including mine. Contact the ATF / your state DOJ directly and get their advice in writing. Then follow it.

 

[GRIZ22]

A one time sale of 10-15 guns with no restocking shouldn't be considered conducting a business.


I agree. Business denotes you are buying and selling on a regular basis to make money.


BATFE, says it's AGENT DECRESSION?

I have never seen or heard anything that claims ATFE agents have discretion in what they consider a business. The ones who have discretion are the US Attorney's Office as they establish the guidelines for prosecution. An AUSA who accepted a case like that for prosecution would most certainly be told to drop it. I spent almost 30 years as a federal LEO and an ATFE agent who started a case on a guy who sold 15 guns because he was clearing a collection would be told not to waste his or the agency's time.

 

[Bubbles]

A one-time event like this isn't a problem, it's the constant buying and reselling over time that's a problem.

If the OP's friend is truly worried about it he can consign the guns with a local FFL, but IMO that's not really necessary.

IANA lawyer and this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Art Eatman]

Were I to liquidate my gunstash, I'd get a table at a gunshow and be happy for any ATF guy to sit with me and have a beer or three. As long as the buyers are in-state and Texas legal, the deal is legal.

 

[redneck2]

A one-time event like this isn't a problem, it's the constant buying and reselling over time that's a problem

This may well very from state to state. I know several guys that bought and sold on a regular basis that were pinched by the ATF. Local dealers that had to jump thru all the hoops turned them in.

Other case would be if one of the firearms were used in the commission of a felony. Things that might normally slide would be looked at real closely in that case.

In Indiana at least, it's legal to do private transactions. I run mine thru a dealer and pay the transfer fee anyway. Not worth the downside for me.

YMMV

 

[JohnKSa]

This may well very from state to state.

I can promise you it doesn't.

The BATF doesn't enforce state laws.

 

[Art Eatman]

The OP didn't say diddly-boo about buying and selling! It's all about disposing of a collection, so stay with the subject or go somewhere else!

 

[Airman193SOS]

The person in question has no intention of flipping the proceeds into purchasing more guns, it's a sell-off only.

It seems that this person is in the clear. Still, wouldn't it be an easy thing for the ambiguity of the situation to be cleared up rather than perhaps rolling the dice and getting caught out on a judgment based on semantics?

 

[TexasRifleman]

How about just reading the actual Federal law. It's not very complicated.

Liquidating a personal collection, even if it were 1000 guns, is legal and SPECIFICALLY mentioned as NOT being a problem. Here are all the appropriate definitions from Federal Law:

The term "dealer" means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,

(21) The term "engaged in the busi- ness" means—as applied to a dealer in fire- arms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the en- hancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who en- gages in the regular and repetitive pur- chase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.

 

[murdoc rose]

you can sell as many guns as you want, you can even buy as many guns you want and then sell them, catch is based on if your making money. IF you are making a substantial profit someones going to come talk to you. Generally they will give you a warning.

 

[UpTheIrons]

Just for fun, have him call Dury's Gun Shop in San Antonio, TX. They specifically buy collections of guns, so he may want to call them and get it all done in one shot, rather than deal with up to 15 different people. They'll even come to him, if the situation warrants it.

http://www.durysguns.com/

I am in no way affiliated with Dury's, but they have a great reputation here in Texas and elsewhere.

 

[Airman193SOS]

Thanks for citing the actual law, TexasRifleman. I was hoping somebody would do that.

You know, you'd think that I would know exactly where to look by now, but I had a brain fart and forgot where to look.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You know, you'd think that I would know exactly where to look by now, but I had a brain fart and forgot where to look.

It seems to come up so often on THR I keep a PDF of it on my PC's desktop for cutting and pasting LOL.


18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 is the whole thing. Section 921 specifically lists definitions. Very handy to have the definitions of things.

 

[Old Shooter]

Selling off the collection may be legal as all get out and if so, no problems UNLESS one of them shows up in a crime at a later date and is traced back to you. Do you have the name of Joe Blow whom you sold it to? Mayby a copy of a receipt?

When I have wanted to thin my collection down by more than one or two that I sold to people I knew, I took them to a local, well-respected gunshop and sold them on consignment. They take care of the paperwork and I get a check. Yeah, there is a commision involved but I figure it is probably cheaper than a Lawer a year or three later.

Others may have had other opinions, this is the way I do it.

 

[wilkersk]

If they are being sold privately, how would the BATFE find out?

That's the first thing I thougt of.

I suppose that if you sold enough to get a reputation, someone will eventually take an official interest.

Or, ....if you start declaring the proceeds as income.

 

[natman]

Selling off the collection may be legal as all get out and if so, no problems UNLESS one of them shows up in a crime at a later date and is traced back to you. Do you have the name of Joe Blow whom you sold it to? Mayby a copy of a receipt?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. It's written on the back of a copy of the FFL I shipped to, along with the UPS sticker from when I shipped. The whole thing is filed away for just such a contingency.

 

[deadin]

The only guy I personally knew that was busted was years ago.
He advertised in the local "Little Nickel" paper as "Guns for Sale and Guns Wanted". He kept perfect records of what he bought and sold and how much each transaction was worth. The BATF finally busted him with a straw purchase. The agent made it very clear that he was buying for a friend and if the friend didn't like the gun, "could he bring it back?" When old George took it back in trade for another a few days later, that was all she wrote. He was acting like a dealer, was supplementing his income with the proceeds, etc, etc. He didn't serve any time that I know of, but he sure gave up a lucrative business. I never understood why he didn't just get a FFL as they were easy to get in those days.

 

[Art Eatman]

And with that last off-topic post, this thread is done.