How many guns can a private citizen sell in a given period...

[Sniper X]

Before said private citizen has to by law, become a FFL licensed dealer?

Here's why I ask. A buddy finds himself in a position to buy used glocks in his area pretty cheap can fix them up a bit, fix them as needed and clean them up and resell them for a profit. Furthermore, when one buys a new or used gun, how long does that person have to wait before they can legally sell it? reason I ask this is right after (the next day) I got my 340PD I got a killer offer for it but didn't sell because I only had it a day!

thanks all!

 

[ArmedBear]

Technically, a private seller can "occasionally sell guns from his personal collection."

These guns are being acquired with the intent to refurbish them and re-sell them at a profit. They are not, nor were they ever, part of his personal collection. He has a business that earns a profit from buying and selling firearms.

So, he's a dealer by legal definition, and according to the common sense definition. He needs to get his FFL to do this.

How many could he sell without attracting the attention of BATFE? That, I really don't know. People ("collectors") do buy and sell small numbers of guns without FFLs, without getting into any legal trouble. But he would technically be breaking the law with the first one he sold, if he bought it with the plan to resell it at a profit within a short time period (buying a gun because you figure it might be worth more in 20 years is "personal collection").

 

[natman]

Before said private citizen has to by law, become a FFL licensed dealer?

Here's why I ask. A buddy finds himself in a position to buy used glocks in his area pretty cheap can fix them up a bit, fix them as needed and clean them up and resell them for a profit. Furthermore, when one buys a new or used gun, how long does that person have to wait before they can legally sell it? reason I ask this is right after (the next day) I got my 340PD I got a killer offer for it but didn't sell because I only had it a day!

thanks all!

Because he's buying for the purpose of reselling, he's going to need an FFL.

 

[Phatty]

I agree with ArmedBear. There aren't any specific rules governing how many guns qualify as "doing business." It all has to do with the intent of the buyer/seller. If you are buying a gun with the intent to resell it and make a profit, that would qualify as doing business. If you buy a gun with the intent to add it to your personal collection, and at some point after you buy the gun you decide to sell it, that's ok.

As you described it, your buying of the 340PD and selling it the next day would have been legal. However, it would definitely look suspicious and maybe it was wise to hold off on selling it that quickly.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Buying for the purpose of reselling, for the purpose of livelihood and profit, is the definition of a dealer. Needs an FFL.

It's actually all pretty well defined:

The term “dealer” means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,

The term “engaged in the business” means—as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection:

 

[Sniper X]

Which is what I told him was the case. I know buying with the intent is technically being a dealer which is also why I asked. I NEVER asked how many guns he could buy and sell before attracting attention....where did you get that idea?

BTW, I just LOVE when the all knowing all seeing government passes a law stating something as totally vauge as "occasionally" selling from a collection.....how often is occasionally anyway!?:banghead:

 

[TexasRifleman]

government passes a law stating something as totally vauge as "occasionally" selling from a collection.....how often is occasionally anyway!?

The law doesn't hinge on the word "occasional" really, it hinges more on the livelihood and profit angle or it seems to me from reading it.

 

[ArmedBear]

I NEVER asked how many guns he could buy and sell before attracting attention....where did you get that idea?

The way the law is written, that is what your question meant, whether or not that was your intention.

How many guns can you legally purchase with the express purpose of reselling them, then resell them, without an FFL? Zero. The law tells you the exact number. Zero.

However, we all see people at gun shows who sell small numbers of guns without FFLs. The buy, they sell, they buy, they sell. Are they "collecting"? "Investing?" Maybe they just want to horse-trade their way to a bunch of particular rare guns in the end. Obviously, there's a bit of a "gray area." That's what some people ask about: how many before BATFE says, "No, buddy, you're a dealer"?

Buying, refurbing Glocks for resale isn't in that "gray area", though.

 

[Phatty]

How many guns can you legally purchase with the express purpose of reselling them, then resell them, without an FFL? Zero. The law tells you the exact number. Zero.

I would argue that it takes at least two purchases and resales.

The term “engaged in the business” means—as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

 

[Sniper X]

Well that isn't what I meant at all. I didn't really phrase my question well I must admit!

 

[CoRoMo]

...right after (the next day) I got my 340PD I got a killer offer for it...

You could have legally sold your revolver that day.

 

[Jim Watson]

The feds like it vague. That way they can prosecute or ignore you as suits them.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Bingo Jim Watson!

 

[jonboynumba1]

It has to do with intent...and it's not really vague...proving intent is really their problem/dissadvantage in fact. If you buy them to resell at profit without a FFL you are acting as a dealer without a license...this is called trafficking...and it is a felony...tell him to bite the bullet and get a license or stay out of the gun business past his private collection. Also there is an issue of sales tax...if you are a non-licensed illegal dealer the state will also want their cut when you get prosecuted. Being a "gun trader" and buying from "gun traders" and not licensed dealers or buds you know is how you end up with stolen property. Keep it legal and do it right or keep it a hobby...best advice he'll get

 

[Zoogster]

...right after (the next day) I got my 340PD I got a killer offer for it...

You could have legally sold your revolver that day.

Technically yes, in reality no.

While it would technically have been legal, if prosecuted prosecutors would allege it was a straw purchase.
Someone purchasing a gun and selling it the same day would probably lose in court if accused of making a straw purchase for someone else.
Even if true I doubt a jury would buy it, and so it would be a felony offense and conviction, even if everything was actually legal.

The feds like it vague. That way they can prosecute or ignore you as suits them.

Exactly. Vague allows them to do whatever they wish at their discretion.
A specific number would mean they had to prove in court that the number was exceeded.
It would also limit some good people with large pocketbooks, who may complain with lawsuits and legislation, resulting in a change and less all powerful discretion.
But if it does not interfere with the majority of those people, then the minority who are prosecuted at their discretion are alone, and just the tiny voice of a single felon.

 

[ArmedBear]

Another alternative: he could work a deal with a local FFL to do the transfers. The FFL will get a cut that way, but there wouldn't be much of a barrier to entry. Assuming there's enough of a profit margin, he could start today, and work on getting the FFL if the business works out well.

Up-front investment in unproven business bad. Immediate profit good.

 

[Zoogster]

If you buy them to resell at profit without a FFL you are acting as a dealer without a license...this is called trafficking...and it is a felony...tell him to bite the bullet and get a license or stay out of the gun business past his private collection.

That has been the line I see when it comes to ATF interpretation, but it is not official.
You will see threads titled things like "guns for investment" on occasion with various people purchasing some guns they expect to gun up in value which can be sold later.
I guess those are just felons, who have the intent of purchasing a gun today which they will sell some years later and expect to make a profit when they do.


No, it is in fact very discretionary, but they will convince the jury it is not when they choose to prosecute someone from one angle or another.



It is primarily people who either buy and sell a significant number who are prosecuted, OR especially those who have more than one of the guns they sold end up in a crime.
Say you sold 5 guns over several years but 2-3 end up traced in a serious crime and come back to you as the official purchaser, then you may be charged even though you sold less than many people who would never have been charged
Since you cannot control where the gun ends up, and who it gets transferred to in a sale from the person you sold it to down the line, the more you trade the more likely you will end up on the radar of people during investigations.
And the more likely they will see you as a loose end that needs to be eliminated with a felony conviction.

But if you upset the wrong people or come onto their radar for other reasons their reason could be much smaller that they choose to punish you with discretionary prosecution. But that would not be mentioned.

 

[ArmedBear]

Zoogster, I have to disagree.

The law says: "such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms; "

Collectors often have an eye on long-term appreciation. Stamp collectors, coin collectors, car collectors, bottle collectors, all of them have an eye on what things are worth today, and what they might be worth tomorrow. So long-term appreciation is part of the definition, and specifically allowed by law.

If you buy a rifle for $500 today, and sell it for $2500 in a few years, you've made a couple grand, but this is not your "livelihood". And you haven't bought the gun intending to turn it over next week, after you refurbish it, either.

Sure, there's a "gray area" in the law as written, but it's not nearly as "gray" as people want to make it.

 

[CoRoMo]

Technically yes, in reality no.

I like that line!

But, a straw purchase ONLY happens when the buyer lies on 4473 question #9a (used to be #12a I think). There's no way it could be proven that he lied on that purchase. In fact, the testimony from both parties of that 2nd transaction couldn't be refuted either. The prosecution could allege whatever they want, but they'd have no evidence of a straw purchase whatsoever.

 

[ArmedBear]

Right. Someone couldn't be convicted of a straw purchase, assuming he kept his head about him.

However, the direct and indirect costs of the case would probably far exceed the few bucks he could have made by re-selling the revolver. There would be enough evidence to charge him, just not to convict him, after the testimony.

So, it was a rational decision to forgo the possible profit and avoid any possibility of being charged with a crime.

 

[Sniper X]

I'm actually glad I kept it. I do love it now that I have shot it a few times since then. the 340PD turned out to be a great back up to the Ultra CDPII. Cute pair that.

 

[CoRoMo]

Yeah, there's really little reason to sell a gun that you just purchased. Either you decide the gun wasn't for you, or you need the money back. Selling a good gun, just to turn a buck on a hot offer, and then go back and buy the same model, will at the very least get your name sent in on a multiple purchase form. Then the straw purchase accusations could really begin to materialize.

 

[Zoogster]

If you buy a rifle for $500 today, and sell it for $2500 in a few years, you've made a couple grand, but this is not your "livelihood". And you haven't bought the gun intending to turn it over next week, after you refurbish it, either.

Sure, there's a "gray area" in the law as written, but it's not nearly as "gray" as people want to make it.

That is what I was getting at.
It is ultimately discretionary, but certain elements provided for a greater defense, or an easier prosecution.

It is officially "occasional", but "occasional" is whatever the prosecution can convince the members of a jury is reasonably "occasional".

To some it may be once a month, to others once a year, and to some more than a few sales in a lifetime may be unreasonable.
So it comes down to jury selection and what the prosecutor can convince the jury has exceeded "occasional".
A prosecutor could also argue that "livlihood" means different things. A second job would contibute to a person's "livlihood".
Like a second job at minimum wage for a few months. Wouldn't need to be a huge amount of profit to qualify under that argument.
Of course if the person makes a middle or upper middle class salary it would be easier for the defense to argue against that. The profit did not significantly impact the quality of life of the individual.
If however they are a working class individual in a low paying job, and they made enough profit on a couple sales to equate to months of minimum wage employment... The argument that it is a second job greatly contributing to their quality of life and "livlihood" could be much stronger.

For example someone making a low salary who just sold a few "scary looking" type rifles during the Obama scare and made half a years salary would be much easier to prosecute because it represents a significant portion of their "livlihood". Even if they bought them years ago and just felt it was the time to sell.

So it really is discretionary.

 

[StarDust1]

The feds like it vague. That way they can prosecute or ignore you as suits them.

Hard to argue with the above logic, rule of thumb is if it's from your personal collection, and being sold to an eligible(according to the violation(s)of the 2nd by both the fed & state that are called gun control laws)party it's just fine, fine that is until they finally ram the so-called gun show loophole down our throats.
If you're in any doubt, don't do it, consult a firearms savy bloodsucker first!

 

[jonboynumba1]

Look nobody is going to be a stronger advocate for personal freedom and liberty than I am...I wish our government was less than half it's current size and had it's finger in a LOT fewer pies. But the reallity is while there is plenty of room for abuse...and no doubt it happens and must be guarded against. The ATF agents I have worked with and spoken to and been inspected by have all been good guys and not out to get your guns. They are out to stop the folks giving the anti-gunners ammo....namesly the straw-buyers and illegal dealers and traffickers that ARE the ones putting guns in the hands of people that can not legally have them...they are also the people the most often buy and resell stollen guns....which could be YOUR guns next week...or mine (knock on multi-layered hardened steel that it's not!)

If you ask them about gun guess what....some of them are actually BIG gun nuts just like us! (Our local guy is) in fact in talking politics a bit he said "I hope they don't try to ban guns and take them away...because I'll have to quit the next day and be out a job...that's not what I signed up for" They are not sitting around hatching evil plans on how to get your AR15 away from you...they just don't want you buying a box of hipoints and taking them to downtown Birmingham and selling them at $250 a pop to the gangbangers...and guess what...people DO THAT!

So yeah...the president may be after your guns....congress may be after your guns....and some day the poor guys that are dumb enough to still show up for work there may be sent to come get your guns....but in reality right now they are not worried about you and me...they are worried about the "gun traders" that work all the rural areas....the traffickers that supply the gangs in the cities...and the dealers that don't need to be in business because they are too stupid and lazy or crooked to maintain their records so they can track stolen and recovered guns and prosecute the bad guys properly. They are not the "boogie-man incarnate" that it's so easy to paint them as...sometimes they are actually on YOUR side...because we are NOT the bad guys...but there are badguys out there....and they'd LOVE to buy your Colt and my AK off the guy that is about to steal it from your car or my truck next week. And most often they know the difference between the above would-be revolver sale...and wouldn't really care...they might at most warn you it could technically be construed as this or that and warn you not to make a habbit of it...but they aren't after you...they are after the guy buying and reselling HG's to people that shouldn't have them...the kinda people that are why WE carry HG's and have overpriced PITA to move and install gunsafes! Somebody has to do it afterall.

All I'm sayin