After looking at a recent shooters supply catalog recently I started to wonder. I'm talking about traditional positions, prone, sitting, kneeling, standing? No Lead Sled, bi-pods, tri-pods, bench or bags. I know our summer sillouete league has both a traditional and bench division and the bench has twice the shooters. I just shake my head at good groups people shoot off a sled but can barely hit paper in a traditional position.
How many people REALLY shoot anymore
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Not enough, IMO. Based on my observations I think that many of the bench rest, bipod, etc, shooters do not have the knowledge, experience, or ability to make accurate hits from unsupported field positions, which is the issue. Again just my opinion. People are obviously free to choose to shoot (or not) how they want, with the realm of safety, but I really would like to see a lot more people take the time to learn how to shoot from the basic field positions with no support other than a sling, at most.
As long as people are shooting, or hunting, or taking part in a competition I don't care how they choose to do it as long as they are safe. As someone who shoots in all sorts of positions from the bench to roll over prone I don't care how someone chooses to do it as long as we keep adding safe shooters to our ranks.
i practice field positions as much as possible. sitting/kneeling, standing and prone. i run drills etc. at shorter ranges. i shoot out to distance when possible. i do load work-ups from prone with a bipod, as that seems to be the most consistent for me.
i see two main types of shooters at the range i frequent. recently it was the hunters that only come out once a year to sight in their rifles from the bench. many aren't even sure which way to dial their scope to get themselves on paper.
by far the most prevalent type are the younger guys with ars. shooting mostly at 50 yds, mostly from the bench, sometimes standing. the last trip to the range there was a fella shooting an ar15 at 100 from the bench, with a low powered acog knockoff. he actually shot my target by accident which was easily 3-4 feet away.
it seems many guys are more interested in blasting away, than actually learning to become riflemen.
to each their own i suppose.
i see two main types of shooters at the range i frequent. recently it was the hunters that only come out once a year to sight in their rifles from the bench. many aren't even sure which way to dial their scope to get themselves on paper.
by far the most prevalent type are the younger guys with ars. shooting mostly at 50 yds, mostly from the bench, sometimes standing. the last trip to the range there was a fella shooting an ar15 at 100 from the bench, with a low powered acog knockoff. he actually shot my target by accident which was easily 3-4 feet away.
it seems many guys are more interested in blasting away, than actually learning to become riflemen.
to each their own i suppose.
Gun Master
Member
How Many Really Shoot ?
Not as much as I'd like ! Too old, too much cost/unavailability of ammo, too few choices of where & what you can shoot(types of ammo, no shotguns, no center fire rifles), too many rules, etc. ! Why can't I shoot somewhere in the woods, at the sandpits, at a good inexpensive gun club ? I don't want someone looking over my shoulder, telling me what and when I can do something. I know good gun safety, and would like freedom to have fun shooting again. I would like to meander down an old river bed/bank, and not worry about all the afore mentioned fecal matter. But, alas, 'twas not meant to be !
Not as much as I'd like ! Too old, too much cost/unavailability of ammo, too few choices of where & what you can shoot(types of ammo, no shotguns, no center fire rifles), too many rules, etc. ! Why can't I shoot somewhere in the woods, at the sandpits, at a good inexpensive gun club ? I don't want someone looking over my shoulder, telling me what and when I can do something. I know good gun safety, and would like freedom to have fun shooting again. I would like to meander down an old river bed/bank, and not worry about all the afore mentioned fecal matter. But, alas, 'twas not meant to be !
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Hokkmike
Member
I do prone and standing. The rest is on a chair with sandbags or hunting from behind a tree etc.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I used to have lots of places close by to go shooting. Sadly it's all been developed or posted. I really don't like a public range as I'm tired or having a loaded gun pointed at my person by some moron who hasn't a clue.
theotherwaldo
Member
I haven't been shooting since I list my job. I just can't justify the expenditure.
waffentomas
Member
I always enjoy shooting off a bench at my local range, trying to work out hand loads and seeing what any particular rifle will give me in terms of accuracy. But after that, I shoot a lot from off-hand. It's a terribly important skill to have. I hunt public land elk, un-guided, and the buggers just don't cooperate. They really like to make you work for your meat. Yet, I've harvested the last 8 years straight.
Bragging a bit now, but in 2011 I killed an elk with my little .308 from 325 yards off-hand... he was also facing me...heart shot, DRT. I thanked my USMC PMI, SSGT McFarland.
It's a shame. The crap that I see at the range... 'I just bought a .338 WIN super duper magnum elk slayer - oh that hurts when I shoot it, rifle.'
Still, there are some very dedicated marksmen out there who work the craft and shoot well. I would not disparage bench rest shooters, as they are scary good.
Nevertheless, hunters, in particular, must practice from 'strange' positions. I do, and it's paid off.
Bragging a bit now, but in 2011 I killed an elk with my little .308 from 325 yards off-hand... he was also facing me...heart shot, DRT. I thanked my USMC PMI, SSGT McFarland.
It's a shame. The crap that I see at the range... 'I just bought a .338 WIN super duper magnum elk slayer - oh that hurts when I shoot it, rifle.'
Still, there are some very dedicated marksmen out there who work the craft and shoot well. I would not disparage bench rest shooters, as they are scary good.
Nevertheless, hunters, in particular, must practice from 'strange' positions. I do, and it's paid off.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I have five rifle ranges within a 40 mile radius of my house. Only one allows offhand shooting; the others only allow shooting from a bench. None allow prone or field expedient positions.
Panzerschwein
member
I shoot offhand nearly exclusively. The only time I use bags is when sighting in a handgun or rifle. I don't shoot for super tiny groups. I prefer targets like #10 cans or swinging metal plates over paper targets, and when I use paper it is usually a silhouette. When I shoot my revolver I use speedloaders, and practice getting them from pouches on my belt and loading quickly. In other words, when i visit the range or visit the backyard creek back home, I try and focus on shooting how I would in a defensive scenario. Not only is this more productive and beneficial IMHO, but I also enjoy it much more than sitting down on a chair at a padded table with my piece in a sled trying to make a cloverleaf.
This also isn't to say I only shoot for defensive training purposes. Nope, I do plenty of purely recreational plinking but again this is usually offhand shooting, preferably outdoors where I can move around and feel free. YMMV.
This also isn't to say I only shoot for defensive training purposes. Nope, I do plenty of purely recreational plinking but again this is usually offhand shooting, preferably outdoors where I can move around and feel free. YMMV.
Well said Robert and rbernie.
Targets or 'tactical' sometimes you are hamstrung by your range options.
Glad I have places I can do more than shoot off a bench, not everyone does.
Get out there shoot and be safe.
Targets or 'tactical' sometimes you are hamstrung by your range options.
Glad I have places I can do more than shoot off a bench, not everyone does.
Get out there shoot and be safe.
In total agreement with Robert on this one.
The more folks that are into safe shooting the better IMO.
I would do anything possible to promote new shooters, regardless of shooting style, type of firearm, and preference when it comes to shooting positions.......provided that they use safe firearm handling practices.
I'm not a collector by any means, and only have one rifle that nobody but me will ever touch.
The rest I have used for folks to try on for size that have limited experience with firearms.
I also see more and more folks utilizing various offhand positions more than before however, because more seem interested in what they really want to achieve with their chosen firearms....too include rifles.
The more folks that are into safe shooting the better IMO.
I would do anything possible to promote new shooters, regardless of shooting style, type of firearm, and preference when it comes to shooting positions.......provided that they use safe firearm handling practices.
I'm not a collector by any means, and only have one rifle that nobody but me will ever touch.
The rest I have used for folks to try on for size that have limited experience with firearms.
I also see more and more folks utilizing various offhand positions more than before however, because more seem interested in what they really want to achieve with their chosen firearms....too include rifles.
Corn-Picker
Member
As rbernie mentioned, not a lot of ranges allow shooting from field positions.
Additionally, firing from field positions is humbling, and the younger generation thinks they're doing something wrong when they can't match the BS feats of extreme skill that people post about online.
Fact is, the best you can do consistently from field positions isn't anywhere near what you can do from a bench. The best you can consistently get from the standing position is 8-9 MOA (4-5 MOA if you have a shooting jacket and slings that allow you to turn your body into a bench). From the prone position (unsupported) the best you can hope for is 2-3 MOA. That's assuming you have time to pick your shot, your results will be much worse if you're in a hurry
If someone tells me they can do better than that, I tell them to work on their cardio and join the Olympic biathlon team, because that's better than they can do. Look at the biathlon results from the last Olympics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biathlon_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_–_Men's_individual
They are shooting at a 9 MOA target from the offhand position and a 3.6 MOA target from the prone position. The average Olympian missed 15-20% of their shots under those conditions, and those guys are pretty good. I admire anyone who can consistently put nine out of ten in a pie plate at 100 yards, they're a heck of a rifleman.
Edit: I didn't mean for that post to be combative as it sounds -- I just want to let anyone who is getting into the sport know that your results from field positions won't be anywhere as good as what you read about online.
Additionally, firing from field positions is humbling, and the younger generation thinks they're doing something wrong when they can't match the BS feats of extreme skill that people post about online.
Fact is, the best you can do consistently from field positions isn't anywhere near what you can do from a bench. The best you can consistently get from the standing position is 8-9 MOA (4-5 MOA if you have a shooting jacket and slings that allow you to turn your body into a bench). From the prone position (unsupported) the best you can hope for is 2-3 MOA. That's assuming you have time to pick your shot, your results will be much worse if you're in a hurry
If someone tells me they can do better than that, I tell them to work on their cardio and join the Olympic biathlon team, because that's better than they can do. Look at the biathlon results from the last Olympics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biathlon_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_–_Men's_individual
They are shooting at a 9 MOA target from the offhand position and a 3.6 MOA target from the prone position. The average Olympian missed 15-20% of their shots under those conditions, and those guys are pretty good. I admire anyone who can consistently put nine out of ten in a pie plate at 100 yards, they're a heck of a rifleman.
Edit: I didn't mean for that post to be combative as it sounds -- I just want to let anyone who is getting into the sport know that your results from field positions won't be anywhere as good as what you read about online.
briansmithwins
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If someone watched most the shooting I do they'd come to the conclusion that I'm a total bencher.
What I'm doing on the bench is checking zero. My club has a small range where I can do shoot and move, standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, or rollover prone, which I practice there.
But almost nobody ever goes to that shooting area.
BSW
What I'm doing on the bench is checking zero. My club has a small range where I can do shoot and move, standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, or rollover prone, which I practice there.
But almost nobody ever goes to that shooting area.
BSW
Many of the ranges I have been to shooting benches take up the real estate. In some, there is no place to lay a mat and shoot prone with a sling.
The number of people shooting XTC or with a sling has dropped significantly over the years. I attend midrange and long range matches and out of 20-30 shooters, maybe four will be shooting prone with a sling. The rest are shooting with a bipod.
Now the best F Class shooters I know are also outstanding sling shooters, but when I have brought up the topic of why F class has been growing, they agree that one reason is that it is a lot easier to shoot a small group using a bipod, or sandbags.
People are just not shooting standing, sitting, or prone, like they used to. You see this in hunting equipment. There are these bipods that are the length of camera tripods that people are now using hunting because they cannot hold well enough without artificial support.
Now I am proud of my shooting skills shooting standing, sitting, prone, so perhaps I am unfair when I think that sand bag and bench shooters are not real marksman. They are taking the human factor away from shooting and I think that is a very important element in accurate shooting.
But everything changes and perhaps I am only lamenting the change.
At the National Matches, the standing target has a seven inch ten ring. Many High Master shooters put 20 shots, with a high X count, into the ten ring at 200 yards.
Now when the wind picks up, I have been there on one nasty gusty day, and the winning score was only in the 180's. I shot a 168 and felt good.
Scores would be much lower if everyone had to ski a couple of miles and was not allowed to get their heart down before shooting standing. Shooting well under physical stress is very difficult. Scores go down both in cold weather and in above 90's weather. Biathlon shooters are probably excellent shooters, the target they shoot at 50 meters is 1.8 inches in diameter, but they are also under physical stresses that are not conducive to accuracy shooting, I would be pleased to shoot 9 MOA after sprinting for 6.2 miles. I think I would be dead after sprinting 6.2 miles.
The number of people shooting XTC or with a sling has dropped significantly over the years. I attend midrange and long range matches and out of 20-30 shooters, maybe four will be shooting prone with a sling. The rest are shooting with a bipod.
Now the best F Class shooters I know are also outstanding sling shooters, but when I have brought up the topic of why F class has been growing, they agree that one reason is that it is a lot easier to shoot a small group using a bipod, or sandbags.
People are just not shooting standing, sitting, or prone, like they used to. You see this in hunting equipment. There are these bipods that are the length of camera tripods that people are now using hunting because they cannot hold well enough without artificial support.
Now I am proud of my shooting skills shooting standing, sitting, prone, so perhaps I am unfair when I think that sand bag and bench shooters are not real marksman. They are taking the human factor away from shooting and I think that is a very important element in accurate shooting.
But everything changes and perhaps I am only lamenting the change.
At the National Matches, the standing target has a seven inch ten ring. Many High Master shooters put 20 shots, with a high X count, into the ten ring at 200 yards.
Now when the wind picks up, I have been there on one nasty gusty day, and the winning score was only in the 180's. I shot a 168 and felt good.
Scores would be much lower if everyone had to ski a couple of miles and was not allowed to get their heart down before shooting standing. Shooting well under physical stress is very difficult. Scores go down both in cold weather and in above 90's weather. Biathlon shooters are probably excellent shooters, the target they shoot at 50 meters is 1.8 inches in diameter, but they are also under physical stresses that are not conducive to accuracy shooting, I would be pleased to shoot 9 MOA after sprinting for 6.2 miles. I think I would be dead after sprinting 6.2 miles.
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I'm so glad I started shooting NRA highpower and CMP GSM. Position shooting with many different rifles and calibers, sometimes at long distance. Good stuff, very challenging, and addictive. And its generally practiced by the best group of people you'd ever want to meet.
Laphroaig
Laphroaig
Corn-Picker
Member
At a range close enough that wind and gravity don't have too much time to act on your bullet. The Biathlon for instance is at 50 meters, and those are a 4.5 inch target (offhand) and a 1.8 inch target (unsupported prone) with open sights.
Hangingrock
Member
I've never understood the preoccupation with shooting of the bench once the rifle is sighted in. That said there are those that derive what appears to be great pleasure from that endeavor.
sage5907
Member
I belong to a shooting club and every rifle shooter I see shoots from the bench. Even before deer season they keep shooting from the bench. I personally haven't fired a shot from the bench in several years because I am a hunter. Even when I change a scope or buy a new rifle I do all my sight in work without using the bench. People on this forum continually brag about how small the groups are that they shoot but these comments have little value if they aren't proficient with the rifle in the field. I think this mentality is brought on by programs on the outhouse channel and by the use of box blinds for deer hunting.
I'll shoot standing or kneeling, but I'm much better when shooting on bags. Nothing wrong with shooting from bags, it's the same as using any other improvised rest. Now using a leadsled or such, that just seems like cheating, as if anyone would drag and setup a leadsled when out in the field.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I figure it this way. I began shooting at age 8 in 1958. I began shooting more at about age 13 when I could shoot alone. I just developed a love affair with the gun and everything about the gun. By age 19 in 69 I was in the Marine Corps and my love affair with the gun continued. While many feared annual qualifications I thrived on them and when stateside was always off shooting off the base. I had my work but always found time for my love of the shooting sports. Well when I could anyway.
My career took me many places with 10 years USMC followed by 10 years DoD. Couldn't always have my guns and thank God for my parents home where they stayed warm and safe, waiting for me. Long before the popularity of CCW and Tacticool I simply loved the gun. I shot many DCM matches and any match I could find, I just loved the gun. I started hand loading in 1972 when I returned from Vietnam because of a fascination with accuracy and watching snipers.
Standing, sitting, kneeling and prone? Been there and done that as well as enjoyed it tremendously. However, I don't do it as well as I once did. My visual acuity isn't what it once was and go figure I don't bend as well as I once did. My M1A and M1 Garands don't heft as well in the shoulder and I swear those damn rifles gained weight.
Today I am quite content on the range shooting off the bench and enjoying the leisure of the guns I have loved all my life. Every now and then I still run the gamut of the positions of shooting but the bench isn't that bad. Running new loads over the chronograph and working on my loads is very enjoyable. I don't have anything to prove to anyone but myself.
To those who would say:
I can still hit the paper in any traditional position and you have a hell of a lot to learn about a love of the shooting sports and the gun in general.
Ron
I mostly shoot by myself on private land. I shoot off offhand, off of logs and trees and mounds of dirt, with bipods and without, prone and kneeling, while moving, and just basically any way I feel like at that time. I don't have a good solid bench at this place yet but I plan to build one. A bench is nice for some things and other things not so much. I don't hold it against anyone if they want to shoot 100% benchrest. It's just another variant of the sport. I like that too. As long as people are shooting I don't care which way they do it.
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