How many times have you heard a "gun jock" tell someone looking for a new gun...
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bobinoregon
Member
One of my ex's dad was killed back in the 1970's with one shot to the chest from a Raven .22 . He made it to the hospital about 1/2 hour away before he died.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
I've heard a lot of ridiculousness come from the guy working behind the sales counter. I've also heard just as much come from the customers.
I also figured out long ago that if I act like I have no clue what they're talking about, they'll stop trying to impress me and go find someone else to chat up.
I also figured out long ago that if I act like I have no clue what they're talking about, they'll stop trying to impress me and go find someone else to chat up.
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22-rimfire
Member
A gunshop employee does not need to put down a particular caliber, especially 22 rimfires to make the point that there are better self defense calibers around. I would be willing to guess that there are a lot of 22LR's being carried everyday for self defense. It is a matter of choice. There are reasons to carry a gun chambered in this calbier. I'd get pissed off too if I got shot by anything. I might be dead.
gonoles_1980
Member
My wife had clip's that hold 10 22lr's each. I'm sure the first one wouldn't stop anyone, but she can fire off all 10 in a few seconds. I'm not sure how well someone would do with 10 22lr's embedded in them.
Aileen Carol Wuornos was a serial killer who killed seven men in Florida in 1989 and 1990. She used a .22 handgun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileen_Wuornos
fallout mike
Member
And she shot them all many times in head and chest at point blank range after they were naked and "engaged" in other activities. She shot one 9 times in the head.
This really isn't about how good the 22 is for SD as there is very little reason to debate the effectiveness of the 22 when compared to many other calibers. Anyone that has shot a lot of guns knows there are better choices for SD and HD. The point is that a "salesman (and I use the word lightly) at a major retailer should not be making such a ridiculous comment to a potential customer, or any customer. It is a blatant lie and any gunshop employee that actually uses it as a sales pitch has no business working with guns. Of course we know that many of them have no business trying to sell anything much less firearms but that's beside the point.
Anyone that believes this type of sales pitch is a good idea needs to understand that they are in many cases trying to sell a firearm to an uneducated person. I absolutely think that they should try to steer people away from a 22 as a primary defensive weapon unless there are extenuating circumstances and I have no issue with them pointing out that the 22 is under powered for the job. Just don't do it in such a way that it might make a novice think that the 22 LR is a Daisy Red Rider BB Gun.
Anyone that believes this type of sales pitch is a good idea needs to understand that they are in many cases trying to sell a firearm to an uneducated person. I absolutely think that they should try to steer people away from a 22 as a primary defensive weapon unless there are extenuating circumstances and I have no issue with them pointing out that the 22 is under powered for the job. Just don't do it in such a way that it might make a novice think that the 22 LR is a Daisy Red Rider BB Gun.
MedWheeler
Member
Not gonna make it through all the replies. Bet there's a few in there that border on derailment or caliber warring.
But, I also heard that (and in a Bass Pro Shops!) recently as well. It wasn't a store employee, though; it was a father to his 21-ish year-old daughter.
But, I also heard that (and in a Bass Pro Shops!) recently as well. It wasn't a store employee, though; it was a father to his 21-ish year-old daughter.
Ignition Override
Member
Even though the modern .32 acp round has about twice the energy of a .22LR., a middle-aged friend (very seasoned gun owner) told me that it might be better to throw the Sauer 38H handgun at a person, because being hit by a .32acp bullet "would only piss them off".
USAF_Vet
Member
The gun store is just another place where dudes can tough talk, show off their bravado, and prove just how cool and manly they are.
Is the .22lr a DRT man stopper? No. No handgun caliber really is. Even Treyvon Martin wasn't DRT after getting shot at contact with a 9mm.
Education goes a lot further than insults. Its easy to recommend a service caliber for SD over the .22 without reducing the .22 to tinker toy status. But I guess some dudes just can't keep their mouth shut when they don't have the knowledge to educate someone else.
It does suck when the tough talking macho man is the one on the other side of the counter though. I've found plenty on the customer side of the counter, but thankfully the employees who act thi way don't last long.
Is the .22lr a DRT man stopper? No. No handgun caliber really is. Even Treyvon Martin wasn't DRT after getting shot at contact with a 9mm.
Education goes a lot further than insults. Its easy to recommend a service caliber for SD over the .22 without reducing the .22 to tinker toy status. But I guess some dudes just can't keep their mouth shut when they don't have the knowledge to educate someone else.
It does suck when the tough talking macho man is the one on the other side of the counter though. I've found plenty on the customer side of the counter, but thankfully the employees who act thi way don't last long.
I have seen first hand the after effects of a kid (19 yo) who tried to kill himself with a .22 pistol put right between his eyes. It was a "perfect" shot. The bullet just splattered where his unibrow would be. Looked like he went a full round with the young George Forman with no gloves on. Bullet never penetrated his skull. Wish I had pictures of his face but HIPPA laws won't allow us that luxury. But the fact it didn't kill him doesn't mean I EVER want to be shot with one at any distance.
And the other side of the coin is there as well.....well if you want a CCW gun you need a 45.....if you shoot someone in the little finger with a 45 you will knock him off his feet and kill him dead.
This pure stupid goes both directions. Simple truth is that if Mr or Mrs John Q. Public has to shoot someone there are good chances that they will pull the trigger more then just one time. I think I read a study that out of every 3 bullets 1 will hit its target in a SD type setting....lets look at that for a sec....you are IN FEAR FOR LIFE....I doubt you will have correct form and line up your sites just right....sure practice will help but lets face facts here most CCW holders don't shoot....and don't get any more training after that farce of a class.
So ask yourself one question...(I sound like Clint Eastwood)....where are those other 2 rounds going....and just what do you want them to hit....You are responsible for them.
SC Shooter
Member
The issue is not whether the .22 is a proper defensive caliber but with the "know it all" approach your gun jock had. Sadly, for many, gun ownership and being pro 2nd ammendment seems to bring out the macho in them. It is not thoughtful, and it is certainly not wise. These people do damage to the pro gun cause rather than help.
By the way, if you are killed as a result of being shot with a .22, you are just as dead as if you'd been shot with a .45
By the way, if you are killed as a result of being shot with a .22, you are just as dead as if you'd been shot with a .45
What I was trying to say is that the know-it-all goes both ways....well to really take that deer you need 375H&H....and other flat stupit things I have over heard.
The large caliber thing is a real biggie....and going to women is an even bigger....as most women are new to this area.
I tried to give women what they need, not what they want or what their idiot boy friends said they need. Half of these women can't work the slides on the 40's and 45's they bought. Get confused on the safety systems....
no mam what I think you need is this LCR....but my boyfriend says I should get a glock. Ok....here you go, be careful....Oh I will be I have classes here tomorrow it will be my first time ever shooting a gun.....god help you mam....enjoy that new 10mm...and you will find out just how "hard it hits"...and why even the FBI said to he!! with this.
Then if I did work a Saturday......they would come up from a break....my gosh this hurts my hand....yes mam I tried to tell you it would....is there anyway you can make it not kick so hard...no mam....my gosh I don't know if I can do this....well you only have to shoot 100 rounds to qualify for your CCW, plus the class practice, so really about 150......150!!!!....there is no way I can do that.....is there anything else we can do....well like I said yesterday I do have rental guns available but they are all out now due to the ccw class....you could have reserved one yesterday, but your boyfriend talked you in to buying that yesterday......oh....well can I trade this one in....yea but now it is used....I can't give you anything near what you paid for it....I will have to resell it for a profit....I understand....you could try to sell it yourself but there are some risks there.....
on and on.....sorry I babbled.
But bottom line the stores actually pushed selling the larger guns....more money in them....more profit for the store.....This woman finally got herself a little Bersa 380 with a CT grip set on it....she likes it fine.
These people...meaning new gun people, and some old....really have NO IDEA what these bullets can do....they only poke holes in paper....go shoot a watermelon....an apple...orange. See just what that does....it really puts the power into the guns vs a hole in paper that looks like it was made by an hole punch.
So many really have no idea on the power they have at the end of their fingers, and clerks for the most part don't help them.
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Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
That's a very, very good point. If you don't mind, I'm going to add that one to my stash.
Locally, we have a big box gunstore that seems to go out of their way to hire really ignorant counter critters. Buddy of mine works there and refuses to work in the gun section, despite his excellent knowledge.
I tend not to chat with patrons or random gun counter clerks. The amount of disinformation spewed just angers me. While everyone has their own opinions, most of my firearms talk is with a friend and customer who is an NRA handgun instructor, a police officer friend who actually enjoys shooting for sport and not just qualifying, and a customer and friend who owns a gun store and has always been straight up with me.
When it comes to firearms, i find that friendly conversation quickly turns into heated debate. Guns are a fun passtime for me. I don't need the stress of argument.
When it comes to firearms, i find that friendly conversation quickly turns into heated debate. Guns are a fun passtime for me. I don't need the stress of argument.
The 22LR is not an adequate anti-personal defense round. It may take a long time to explain why, or a shorter explanation may do just as well. I don't have any problem with the "jock" mentioned in OP saying this.
Shooting someone with a 22 might kill them, but it's likely to take several seconds, minutes, or hours, during which time they'll have plenty of opportunity to return fire. I'd say that counts as "making them mad".
When talking to a new gun buyer you may not have time for the full explanation. Steer them toward a cartridge that is proven to stop a threat and save lives when it counts, and don't give them false expectations of what their defensive tool is capable of.
Shooting someone with a 22 might kill them, but it's likely to take several seconds, minutes, or hours, during which time they'll have plenty of opportunity to return fire. I'd say that counts as "making them mad".
When talking to a new gun buyer you may not have time for the full explanation. Steer them toward a cartridge that is proven to stop a threat and save lives when it counts, and don't give them false expectations of what their defensive tool is capable of.
If you are a good shot a 22 can be used as a defensive round, although not recommended, they make up for lack of power with accuracy and the ability to stay on target and put 4 or 5 rounds into what you are aiming at, very fast. If you had nothing else it would do as a last resort. I wouldn't recommend it as a carry gun, but many detectives and off duty cops, carried a 25 back in the 50's and 60's, "there weren't many choices", but a 22 is as good or better than a 25. Especially like a 10 shot Beretta at close range.
9mm is no better I always read of guys getting shot many times and living. One of the many dogs cop shoot was shot 3 times and lived
JustinJ
Member
The phrase, "a 22 shot will just make 'em mad" is not meant to be taken literally. It is simply meant to illustrate that the .22 rim fire is not a terribly effective round to neutralize a threat. Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. In fact, in the vast majority of self defense scenarios the bad guys high tail it out of there at the first sight or sound of a gun. However, if one is to be armed it makes far more sense to have a weapon that will also provide adequate protection from the threats that are not so easily deterred. Lethality is far less important than the potential to neutralize a threat. Shooting a bad guy with a .22 is pointless if he is able to effectively continue his attack after.
Please don't used this term. It is deragatory and, at it's roots, is a racial slur
Thanks
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True....but you know....many new people to firearms in general do not. These are the people that do not know the BS when they hear it and after all they work at a gun store they should know.
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