How much does caliber really matter?

[LawofThirds]

Does anyone make a frangible for the .50 BMG? I can imagine that the wound would look roughly like the trail left by a pack of rabid hedgehogs

 

[MCgunner]

High power rifles were particularly deadly. He made a comment about internal organs pouring out like jelly from body cavities of people shot by a high power rifle.

Anyone who hunts can relate to this. I've seen it shooting deer with a 150 grain 7mm Sierra Game King at 3300 fps muzzle velocity. Not a lung to be found, vaporized, amazing. You push a small bullet fast enough, you don't need no stinkin' bowlin' ball. Dr. Michael Courtney, who has posted links to his published research on the affects of pressure waves on neural systems and tissue, has stated that 1000 ft lbs is about the breaking point for tissue damage, but that some affects occur from over 500 ft lbs in, say, .357 magnum. My hunting experiences jive with that, but he did the actual research. I think I'm quoting him right. Was a low number compared to the Fackler gurus, anyway, and I know some HUNTERS who shoot RIFLES that think bigger bore is better and hunt deer with 35 remingtons figurin' it'll kill game faster than a 7mm STW. Whatever works for you, I guess. But, I can tell ya, my 7 mag will take 'em from 20 yards to 350 bang flop. Been there, done that. Still takes decent bullet placement, but the 7 is more forgiving of that.

Bottom line, with handguns, even magnum handguns, tissue damage is more important than pressure wave affects in the neural system, but I've seen more tissue damage and bigger exit holes on game from a .357 magnum than from a standard pressure .45ACP. That's a fact. I've shot hogs in the trap with .357 140 grain speer JHPs at 600 ft lbs and had MASSIVE exit wounds. I have confidence in magnum revolvers to do the job. Frankly, I have confidence in a well placed 9mm and it's a lot easier to conceal. I've shot pigs with the .38 special shooting the same speer bullet and while the exit wound and wound channel wasn't nearly as impressive as the .357 (probably more due to less bullet expansion than pressure wave affects), it sure got full penetration! If a bullet like that expands and fully penetrates, that's about all you can hope for. I start getting concerned about .380ACP for penetration, but I know .38, 9mm, and up will do the job. That's why they have normally chosen as service calibers, I reckon. Only in Europe is there a military history from mouse gun calibers and that's pretty well history now days even there.

Here's a link I searched. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292871&highlight=Michael+Courtney

 

[leathermanwave]

357 mm























I know it's .357 mag but if I only get one shot I want a cannon.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

I've actually contemplated this similar scenario. But first, my cousin once killed a robber who had one of his employees at gun point leading her to the back. Now my cousin normally keeps a few guns on him at almost any given time, his carry that day was a .38spl in an ankle holster, a .38pl in his left pocket and 629 4" 44 magnum(I've shot it and it's why I have fallen in love with magnums). Now he could of gone dirty harry and plugged the guy in the shoulder and probably seen an exit wound come out the other shoulder while the spine was likely damaged in the process but...He went with .38spl he tells me because it's his 'precision' caliber, he says it's like a "a paintbrush to a savant artist"(yes his words) and is more or less an extension of his hand, and from that I coined for myself the phrase "point-and-click". At around fifteen feet away and little time to react, he went with his 'precision' caliber and dropped the guy with a blue-tip glaser safety round, he told me the guy literally slumped over the instant my cousin saw the hole appear near his ear, there was a little exit wounding as some bits (a total of seven) escaped and after the report and take away that he wiped away with some cloth and windex.

So I borrow a note from the that book, have a 'precision' or "point-and-click" caliber. For the purposes of this scenario I'm going with my Arcus 94-C 9mm loaded with it's usual haul of simple Blazer 124 gr JHP (it's what I shoot out of it the most often and the gun is meant to be BUG to my .357 snubby which I pocket carry as a 'throw up a wall of lead'). Grab the gun and put the round between the eyes. I can hit near center on playing cards at 20 yards with my Arcus and load of Blazers and I can double tap out a magazine of 12+1 at fifteen feet inside a playing card and snap draw the gun and point shoot near center of the playing card at 15 feet.

Admittedly I do nearly all my shooting at playing cards or outlines of them depending on the range I go to. My great grandpa's dad taught him and it served him in WWI and the Boxer rebellion and he taught his son and it served him well in WWII and Korea, and he taught his son and it served him well in 'Nam.

 

[freakshow10mm]

You've got to be kidding me!!!! I'm guessing the best part of shooting a hand gun like that is it blows you down the street to a safe distance with the recoil.

Recoil isn't that bad. I'm 150# and handle it fine. Just lean into it.

This load is a starting charge of 62gr Varget and a 250gr Sierra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdIY6BgXfXA

 

[Wolfeye]

I think caliber boils down to a big gray area mixed with personal preference, even despite all that we're told and all the methods used to quantify their effectiveness. I like mulitiple-use calibers like .357 mag and .44 mag. This preference is arbitrary, but it's what I've settled on. I think people pick their calibers based on what seems to have been proven anecdotally or through experience.

I know in the back of my mind that caliber must matter, but so do things like... whether or not the butterfly flutters its wings in Japan might determine if my bullet turns into a kill shot or a gut shot when I try to shoot a deer at 100 yards. Hypothetically.

Outdoorsmen who take bears seriously also take gun caliber seriously. Where I grew up in Southeast AK, there was a story of a man who'd been mauled to death by a blackbear. The bear carcass was only a short distance from the man's body, and it had been shot 6 times with .32 magnum bullets. If he'd stepped up to .357 he might have still been alive today, who knows...

 

[hinton03]

The FBI will tell you that the answer is a 357 magnum 125 grain Federal Hydra-Shok. They keep records on one shot stops and this round is king. Having said that I believe that most of the rounds that are considered adequate defense rounds (38 special and up) will be within a few percentage points of the 357 given your COM and bullet design criteria.

A lot of times I think we do not consider the psychological affect of being shot. We pretend that a human is ballistic gelatin or even an animal. Animals and gelatin do not know they have been shot and do not know that they will likely die. Other than in extreme circumstances a human shot anywhere will likely stop what they are doing.

I carry a 9mm with 124 grain gold dots, or a 38 special with 135 grain gold dots, not because I believe that they are the number one choice, but because they are perfectly adequate given my lifestyle and needs.

 

[freakshow10mm]

I have serious doubts to whether the "one shot stop" BS is something to rely upon for caliber and load selection for self defense. There are a lot of other factors to be taken into consideration for the purpose of this selection and the last place I'd look for real answers is any form of LE.

The civilian population kills more criminals in justifiable homicides than the LE population. LE gun and ammo selection is rarely based upon raw performance at any cost, but rather acceptable performance that fits in the budget. They worry about the money rather than officer's lives. That is plain wrong IMO.

 

[orionengnr]

At what point dose a bullet become bigger and faster enough to make a difference?

If there were a definitive answer to that question, there would sudenly be a lot fewer calibers for sale. And then we could all quit screwing around on the internet on Company time, and get this Country back on it's feet by doing some good, old-fashioned productive work!

(BTW, it's does, not dose...)

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The answer is, not a whole lot. Just a little bit is all. Look at penetration & expansion tests - the differences between 9mm and .45 and .40 are miniscule to say the least, with modern HP bullets.

 

[DougDubya]

To freakshow10mm - you are insane.

And I LOVE that about you.

.375 H&H Contender.

Yup... got the .45-90 beat to snap.

 

[freakshow10mm]

I built it as a cheap entry to the .375 Holland; cost me less than a rifle, started out with a die set I bought for $7.50. Got addicted. My next .375 project is a short rifle with a 20" barrel. I have barrels in .358 STA (8mm Mag necked up) and .416 Rem Mag on the way in a few weeks for the Encore pistol.

I use this gun (with a few marked dummy rounds next to it) as an attention-getter piece at gun shows. Does the job alright.

 

[Ltlabner]

Oh look...another thread about caliber.

As long as you are at .380 or higher IMO caliber isn't nearly as important as mindset, training and skill in employing your weapon. Some ninjas worry about caliber and forget to actually, you know, figure out how to use their weapons.

On the top end, anything over .45ACP or 10mm is likely overkill and could start to have serrious drawbacks (harderfollow up shots, less likely to practice regularly with weapon, blinding flash at night, over-penetration, etc.).

Get a weapon you can be comfortable with, in a caliber you can reliably & consistantly hit the target with. Then spend as much time as possible training with it. Sit back and let the ninjas worry about the other junk.

 

[McCall911]

Okay, then. Size does matter:

I can't decide if it's the greatest revolver in the world, or the stupidest idea in the world!

 

[Tom Fury]

RPG...
7 feet away demands a head shot...assuming I'm shooting because he has a weapon and I must shoot to live, COM is not the answer...
Cheers:
TF, who couldn't sleep...

 

[mavracer]

nope caliber don't matter just give me a 7 1/2" SAA that way if I miss I can put a pop knot on their nugget big enough to drill holes in and bowl with.

 

[Markbo]

freakshow - do you have another video of that. I have looked and looked at that video and I swear that does not look like a T/C.... maybe the angle, the lighting, I don't know... but it looks like something else.

 

[equitytrader]

Anything smaller than .729" is for . . . what are the names all the 1911 guys use to call everybody else?

 

[gallo]

If a com at 7 feet does not deter the BG, you're in heap of trouble. A good pair of sneakers may come handy in lieu of a follow-up shot.

 

[wcb]

If a com at 7 feet does not deter the BG, you're in heap of trouble. A good pair of sneakers may come handy in lieu of a follow-up shot.

I have to agree and say I consider myself a pretty good shot but if someone threatens me with deadly force, even at 7 feet, I'm firing at COM with a double tap; then after that having a little more time, if needed, a head shot. At 7 feet it takes too long to get to a head shot; when my life depends on milliseconds, I ain't wastin any time.

I dont mean to sound like a Ninja here.

 

[brigadier]

If you are talking about getting the same velocities out of equal weight bullets of different calibers, the larger the caliber, the better, up to a certain point in which you end up with too much width and not enough torso.
The whole idea of winning the fight you described is getting the bullet to stop in the target and deliver a ton of energy. For this, it is best described in these words: "oboola lo goola" (wider is better), and the hole is going to be larger as well.

 

[freakshow10mm]

freakshow - do you have another video of that. I have looked and looked at that video and I swear that does not look like a T/C.... maybe the angle, the lighting, I don't know... but it looks like something else.

It's a TC Encore pistol. The only one I have.

The barrel is a rifle barrel cut down to 15.5 inches. The rifle forearm will crack under heavy recoil in pistols, so the pistol forearm is used. The holes don't line up, as the rifle forearm is longer than the pistol. I need to D&T the barrel for the pistol forearm.

In the video, there is no forearm or scope on it. In the the pic I posted, the forearm is just sitting on the barrel. I am using a borrowed scope from a guy on another forum. I haven't had time to test for accuracy yet.

 

[Markbo]

I'll watch again, thanks. But you are proof that recoil is manageble. A strong grip, the right stance and letting the gun move instead of fighting it goes a long way toward handling it. I find the recoil of the .375 in rifles is not nearly as fierce as most believe. Maybe I need to look for a barrel for my Encore.