How much for a range gun/addition to the collection?

[lsudave]

I'm looking at something. Not a much-desired make, in fact it's pretty obscure, and ugly tends to be the most common description.

The premise- I have always liked a certain style of pistol: 90's era, metal frame, fullsize duty gun, DA/SA. I have a number of various makes of these, some are very desirable (Sig P226, Beretta 92FS, CZ 75). Some aren't as known, a lot never made it through the decade before the company closed or discontinued the model.

I'm looking at a model that meets these specs exactly. They currently are pretty cheap and parts are scarce, but it's going to be an addition if I get it, not a primary weapon. I am looking mostly because it's a unique model, unlike other guns I have. I won't shoot it a bunch.

Guy on gunbroker has several going, most look like they are in pretty good shape. How much more to go for the one that has a box and spare mag?

Edited to clarify original post: I was looking at a Croatian PHP MV 9. I didn't have a burning desire to get one at any cost, but for the right price I wanted one.

This is an inexpensively priced gun, I was debating how much higher I should go for one with 2 mags, a case, a manual, and cleaning rd, vs just a pistol with one mag.

 

[wally]

I don't really understand what you are asking, but the Astra A-100 series of pistols would seem to meet your criteria. Google has photos:
https://www.google.com/search?q=ast...X&ved=0ahUKEwjPy627uffUAhXp5oMKHVBqDk4QsAQIOw

I've one in .45ACP, CDNN has had spare magazines at various times.

There was also a double stack steel framed Star pistol from the same era, although I can't recall its model. Also maybe the RAP 400 series from South Africa, uncommon and not highly desirable.

 

[Telekinesis]

What do you want us to say? You wrote a lot but didn't actually give us any information other than you want something and want us to value a mag and box. But you didn't tell us what it is. It's kinda like you asking "I'm holding something (gun related) in my hand - how much is it worth?"

Are you talking something like a Glock mag that's worth $25 and available everywhere? Or a HK P7 M13 mag that's $120+ and you can only find them occasionally when someone sells their gun?

Knowing what gun you're talking about would help us a lot...

In general, find out what the mag usually sells for by itself (and take into account availability) and then compare that number to what the gun+mag package is selling for. If it's a difficult to find mag, it may be worth a slight premium to not have to deal with searching for a spare. If you're looking at a surplus gun, buy spare parts/mags early because they will be hard to find once the source dries up.

Even for range guns an extra mag or two are nice so that you don't have to load them as often. I wouldn't put much value on the box unless that is important to you as a collector.

I'm looking at a model that meets these specs exactly. They currently are pretty cheap and parts are scarce, but it's going to be an addition if I get it, not a primary weapon. I am looking mostly because it's a unique model, unlike other guns I have. I won't shoot it a bunch.

Guy on gunbroker has several going, most look like they are in pretty good shape. How much more to go for the one that has a box and spare mag?

 

[lsudave]

I'm looking at a batch of Croatian PHP MV's that are running on auction. Right now, the price is pretty low, in line for what SOG had them. The guns in question have good grips, the ones on SOG and J&G have bad or no grips.

I really don't NEED this gun, and I agree with the general impressions online of "boy, that's an ugly gun", but it meets every box in the checklist:

• metal frame
• DA/SA
• fullsize
• intended for duty (in fact, it did serve, for the Croatians)
• designed in early 90's

here was also a double stack steel framed Star pistol from the same era, although I can't recall its model.

It's the Star 30M, I have one

Re the Croatian ugly duckling, the guns are going a little under to a little over $200 (the list is lower, but the shipping is steep, so I figured that in). One has a case, spare mag, rod, and manual. The rest are gun w 1 mag. I hestitated in naming the model because the auctions are ending soon, and suddenly there's movement on the bids.

 

[lsudave]

What do you want us to say? You wrote a lot but didn't actually give us any information other than you want something and want us to value a mag and box. But you didn't tell us what it is.

Yeah, that was pretty vague-
Croatian PHP MV 9. I don't want to spend a lot on one of these, but if I can get one cheap enough, it complements the rest of the collection. Someone listed a batch, I bid on the one that had extras, the others don't.

Auction ending soon, and somebody pushed up my bid. I guess I'm trying to decide how much more I would like to have one with a spare mag and case, as compared to just having the gun with a single mag.

FWIW, I have a CZ 99 also, I figured these two guns complement each other. I think they faced off in Bosnia, the Serbs kept the CZ 99, and the Croats no longer had access to the Zastava products and had to come up with their own.

 

[bannockburn]

I'm thinking maybe a Star Model 28, Model 30, or Model 30K. Built like the proverbial tank and well suited for the job as a service pistol. While they probably wouldn't win any beauty contests I certainly wouldn't consider them unattractive or hard to look at.

 

[BSA1]

Re the Croatian ugly duckling, the guns are going a little under to a little over $200 (the list is lower, but the shipping is steep, so I figured that in). One has a case, spare mag, rod, and manual. The rest are gun w 1 mag. I hestitated in naming the model because the auctions are ending soon, and suddenly there's movement on the bids.

I am not a true collector. I do have some guns that are desirable and will bring a slight premium but that is not why I own them.

When it comes to semi-autos availability and price of extra magazines are of big importance. Without good magazines a semi-auto is simply a wall hanger. Ideally I like to have at least 4 magazines for my guns that I seldom shoot. ( I say ideally because I have a couple of pistols I need to get some more magazines for). I am constantly looking for good deals for magazines for my pistols.

So $200.00 with only one magazine is not a good deal if additional magazines are not available or too high priced.

SOG has new Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm for $319.99 with an additional $10.00 off and free shipping. With the shipping on the Croatian PHP you are within $100.00 of each other with extra magazines available at $19.95.

 

[lsudave]

I am not a true collector. I do have some guns that are desirable and will bring a slight premium but that is not why I own them.

yeah, I'm not into buying to sell, I collect things that interest me. I only sold one gun, that I had a duplicate in better shape, and it made me sad...

When it comes to semi-autos availability and price of extra magazines are of big importance. Without good magazines a semi-auto is simply a wall hanger. Ideally I like to have at least 4 magazines for my guns that I seldom shoot. ( I say ideally because I have a couple of pistols I need to get some more magazines for). I am constantly looking for good deals for magazines for my pistols.

It's an iffy thing with magazines. I currently only have 1 "true" magazine for the CZ 99, but it takes Beretta 92 mags if you cut a notch in the right place. Also Taurus mags, as I discovered after getting a couple for cheap, and cutting the mags.

 

[PabloJ]

I'm looking at something. Not a much-desired make, in fact it's pretty obscure, and ugly tends to be the most common description.

The premise- I have always liked a certain style of pistol: 90's era, metal frame, fullsize duty gun, DA/SA. I have a number of various makes of these, some are very desirable (Sig P226, Beretta 92FS, CZ 75). Some aren't as known, a lot never made it through the decade before the company closed or discontinued the model.

I'm looking at a model that meets these specs exactly. They currently are pretty cheap and parts are scarce, but it's going to be an addition if I get it, not a primary weapon. I am looking mostly because it's a unique model, unlike other guns I have. I won't shoot it a bunch.

Guy on gunbroker has several going, most look like they are in pretty good shape. How much more to go for the one that has a box and spare mag?

New S&W 5943 would be perfect choice. They are on sale at Cabela's for $599. You will not find better made new gun with night sights for less. Hecho en Estados Unidos man!

 

[Pelo801]

I'd go for the one with the extra mag. The availability of mags for those guns is about non-existent.

 

[Danoobie]

I buy guns for shootability. if somebody's throwing in mags
or a box at a reasonable additional cost, OK. So if you can '
buy extra mags cheaper, later, just do it.

Usually once you get to the point where you're asking
"Is it worth it?" it isn't. The gun with the original box may
cost a lot more, because it's in a condition you wouldn't
want to degrade by shooting it a lot, anyway.

 

[lsudave]

Ok, I won my auction , and by the exact top amount I decided I would go.

Good suggestions all, regarding the various other guns. A NIB 3rd Gen S&W is a steal at $599, I don't think people today realize just how nice these guns were. They were legit competitors with Sig.
Somebody mentioned a Star Model 28, 30 or 31, I agree- I have a 30MI, and I love it. I definitely think those were well-made, and I won't be selling mine. Another mentioned the Astra- I've been curious about those, haven't seen them a lot. I have it on the list, at the right price. Preemptively I will also say that I have the Daewoo DP 51 on the list, too.

So the gun in question: IMP PHP MV9.
I've seen these awhile, Southern Ohio guns had them for $215 or so, and I was actually interested at that price, but didn't know how to order (they want your FFL to order it for you, instead of you buying it and having it shipped to an FFL). At that price you're buying a random gun, blind, with 1 mag I believe. They're now running low, they post a disclaimer about broken or no grips. J&G now has these for $199, they list NO grips, 1 mag. (gotta figure shipping for both, too).
The gun in question, that I bid on and won, was one of a batch of maybe 7 listed by someone on Gunbroker. All his showed guns in clean, good to very good condition, one was missing the front sight, the rest intact. No reserve price, started out with a weird pricing setup (he listed a price, but his shipping was WAY high, actually over $60). Ok, fine- you factor in the shipping so you add that higher amount... his listed guns were still starting below the stores.

I ended up going to my max amount that I'd have considered, all expenses added up. Meaning, my bid plus the shipping. For that, I went a little over Southern Ohio Gun price (or possibly equal, with their shipping), and for that price I got: gun, 2 mags, case, cleaning rod, manual. Grips are good and intact, gun as pictured looks like Good to VG (actual, not your typical seller uprating), maybe better. Don't know if I got snookered on the case or not, as they don't show the outside, but I have seen photos of the MV case online before. In any event, it's a case to take to the range, regardless, so it isn't a waste. The additional magazine I see, that might definitely be worth the couple bucks. I've read some comments online that the gun takes XD mags; but some also comment that those need to be cut on too.
If you didn't know, same manufacturer, this was their first pistol, they eventually progressed to the HS2000 (the XD), but that was after the conflict ended.

All in all, I'm still looking at under $250, after FFL and out the door. It isn't a beautiful old 1911, it isn't the newest CCW, but it is an all-steel pistol that, despite the oddball appearances, fits into my preferred design features, and serves as a nice counter to the CZ 99 I also own. I doubt I'll shoot it much, and won't carry it, but for a "just because", I guess I didn't do too badly.

 

[lsudave]

I buy guns for shootability. if somebody's throwing in mags
or a box at a reasonable additional cost, OK. So if you can '
buy extra mags cheaper, later, just do it.

yep, my thoughts too

Usually once you get to the point where you're asking
"Is it worth it?" it isn't. The gun with the original box may
cost a lot more, because it's in a condition you wouldn't
want to degrade by shooting it a lot, anyway.

Yeah, I entered into this with an "ok, this is a reasonable price" when I found the listings- they all started out $100 + 65 shipping, so you're looking $165. It was low enough to pique my interest, and I figured that most people would see the high shipping and immediately go elsewhere, although the total price was still low enough.

I looked at the various guns listed, and when I saw one with extras, I tabbed that one as my preferred. The rest were about equal; the one missing the front sight I ruled out (after looking online to make sure there weren't any sights available). One place used to have the sight for $15, but they're sold out.

Usually once you get to the point where you're asking
"Is it worth it?" it isn't.

As the auction was nearing the end, somebody bid me up, and I was definitely wavering... I was watching the others, and trying to decide if I should just switch to another.

It turns out, I made the right call... one ended before mine, that one went for a good bit less (was one mag, nothing else). That's the one that made me wonder, should I just go for a cheaper option?
Then I won mine, at what appears to be the highest.
The next 2 just ended, one was $5 less, the other was $10 less than I paid. Again, just 1 mag.

The last one has climbed to $30 over my price, and again, 1 mag.

So apparently, there were a few people who are thinking like me, want one "just because", and now that the pickings are thinned out, a couple guys are pushing for that last one. It's still just within the price I'd go, and I'd gladly pay 5-10 bucks for case+spare mag.

 

[Danoobie]

A NIB 3rd Gen S&W is a steal at $599, I don't think people today realize just how nice these guns were. They were legit competitors with Sig.

Yeah, well, either you know, or you don't. I look at a lot of new stuff, with the S&W GEN3s as a benchmark, and walk away SMH.

 

[armoredman]

So when do we see a photo of your Croatian Ugly Duckling?

 

[lsudave]

Yeah, well, either you know, or you don't. I look at a lot of new stuff, with the S&W GEN3s as a benchmark, and walk away SMH.

I feel ya there. I think the current generation is used to everything being disposable, or at least replaceable within a couple of years. This runs from cars to cellphones, and all sorts of things in between. It rolls over to guns too, get a cheap polymer gun, and a couple years later get another one. It should run for a couple thousand rds at the range.

That's why I look for the duty guns from the 90's, I think they are the pinnacle of the industry. Solid designs that worked, things had been standardized for the most part by then, and metallurgy was advanced enough that most reputable makers had good steel etc. All the 'advances' since then have been cheaper/lighter (polymer), with less care taken in manufacture and assembly, and less skilled workmanship.

That might sound funny, since I just bought a PHP , but when you consider the circumstances of it, that gun's a pretty amazing accomplishment. This was not a pistol made by an established manufacturer, this was basically a first prototype that was pressed into service immediately.

 

[lsudave]

So when do we see a photo of your Croatian Ugly Duckling?

It should ship soon, tomorrow I hope, and arrive next week. I guess I can post a photo from the listing, as the gun is now mine...



One thing is immediately noticeable, a lot of the stock photos don't do this gun justice. It's definitely not sleek, and has a lot of weird and hard edges, but the pictures google spits at you are distorted, and looks like the barrel is drooping.
On this, it pretty much looks like a Daewoo DP-51, with half the slide cut off, and a lot stuff going on on the outside of the frame.

 

[lsudave]

So when do we see a photo of your Croatian Ugly Duckling?

Finally arrived, and I'd say it's worth the wait...



It's a different one than the seller photo... I called him and talked to him awhile on the phone after the purchase, and he was kind enough to say he'd look through his stock and pick out one of the better ones (he said he had a few).

Came with the case, manual, cleaning rod, extra magazine and little plastic oil bottle.

 

[Danoobie]

That looks pretty nice. Sometimes it's hard to find ones with the grips and slide in
good shape. Seems like you've fared well. How does it shoot?

 

[lsudave]

That looks pretty nice. Sometimes it's hard to find ones with the grips and slide in
good shape. Seems like you've fared well. How does it shoot?

Thanks, I'm really pleased with it!

Shoots great, I took it to the range and ran about 70 rds of 115 gr S&B through it; I did a full mag with each mag, and the rest were series of 5. About 10 yds. Sights are dead on, recoil was very pleasant and minimal. Accurate and consistent- I'm no super marksman, I'm a lefty and do tend to push things down and to the left just a bit (I guess I have some recoil flinch), and my eyes are beginning to get fuzzy right at the distance where the front sight is (I'm nearsighted and have always worn contacts or glasses, but as I approach 50 it seems my reading vision is finally changing).
All that said, I put 3 of the first 5 into a jagged hole, standing and shooting offhand, with 1 true flyer (on me), and my very first shot being dead-on. I'd say it shoots to point of aim or JUST below... the one in the red is about exactly where I was trying to hold.

This is the first 5 shots.


Recoil and shooting characteristics- this is an extremely pleasant pistol to shoot, all appearances aside. The grip is okay, about as nice as a Sig or Beretta ergonomically. The weight and mass absolutely negates most recoil, as it has a steel, not aluminum, frame. That, and the bulk of the slide is rearwards, so the gun stays very much in place. Combined with the barrel action- it slides back like a Beretta or, I guess, a P 38, instead of tilting like Browning-derived guns, so there's less muzzle flip than comparably sized pistols, even those of similar weight. My best description would be- felt like a Beretta 92, if the frame was steel and the slide had mass at the rear.

I mentioned my eyesight- with this pistol it isn't an issue. The front sight is a big blade ala Buck Rogers, very easy to pick up.

I'd say that if you wanted to make a target gun, this would be an ideal design to start from. Everything about it is conducive to 'easy' shooting. The slide stop and takedown lever are not of the quality I would want in such a gun (by that I mean the steel itself)), so if I were so inclined to use the gun that way, I might have someone machine copies out of some quality tool steel. But the slide seems milled out of solid steel billet. Don't know how they produced the frame, but there is a lot of milling and machining marks on it too. Those, at least, appear extremely robust and not-cheap. They look hand-made, by a good machinist, as compared to something churned out in a mass production process.

The controls, as I said, appear otherwise, and feel a bit brittle and porous.

If you look again at the photos, those lighter areas that appear to be rust (around the barrel etc), aren't. The steel has been blued or browned, and it's somewhat transparent and weak in the color. At some areas it doesn't look like the color took heavily, and that's the brown you see. However they did it, I'd say the vat was used extensively and the chemicals were losing effectiveness, and they probably didn't do more than a single dip. The entire gun has a brownish tint in sunlight. It is not paint or any type of coating.

 

[bgw45]

I'm glad you are enjoying your new pistol. That is, after all, the point. For my $250 I went for a SAR B6P. Not near as interesting as your choice but never the less a really fun shooter. Tell us about your next adventure.