How much pistol do you really need?

[Az-quailhunter]

I would opt for the .44 Special for EDC IF they manufactured MORE DA revolvers in said caliber. I have the S&W M24, but it has a
6.5 inch barrel, and I don't really like to carry it. And 4 inch barrel models are REALLY hard to find.

 

[BSA1]

FYI, I made absolutely no claims. Please refrain from firing at the messenger who merely delivers statistical data which largely contradicts the notion that elderly people or women would be targeted more than other demographic groups. Thank you.

I am not attacker the messenger just asking for documentation that supports your claims about the elderly are less likely to be targeted than other groups.

I am a retired Governmint Bureaucrat so I know a lot about statistics and the importance of carefully reading the data was collected. For example gang on gang violence gives more weight to the argument of certain age group, sex and race are victims of violent crime. However gang on gang violence is largely limited to members and family of that group and not to the public at large. This does not mean I am discounting innocent victims of drive-by shooting attacks. Only that the attack was intended on a rival gang member.

Then factor domestic violence attacks and abuse. 1 in 3 women have been victims of [some form of] physical violence and 1 in 4 women have been victims of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

The facts are the stakes are much higher for women and the elderly.

You have to read statistical reports carefully to get to the meat.

http://ncadv.org/learn-more/statistics

 

[Warp]

If males are more frequently victims of violent attack, and more frequently victims of homicide, how are the stakes much higher for women? That just doesn't make sense

 

[Hokkmike]

Which is all a fallacy basically since we are talking about actual effectiveness if and when that comes to pass.

Unless you are considering carrying an unloaded or blank-firing-only or airsoft gun because you'll never need to actually use it




Please share the stats/facts/figures that you are referring to

I was going off ATL Dave's figures....

 

[Shed]

One way to look at this stuff (not saying it's the best) is to see what has been used in assassinations , as there is usually more public information about the firearm and caliber used:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_by_assassination

Not a ton of big bore in there

 

[Hookeye]

My ol lady was a college athlete (whatever the heck that means- I've heard it over and over and..............)

Browning Hi-Power.............hot 115 jhp loads..............the most she will tolerate recoil wise.
Can't rack the slide on my Combat Commander.
She's a wimp.

Our oldest daughter.................when she.was maybe 15 and weighed 85#.....................rocked that 1911 like a champ.
Shoots it VERY well and recoil doesn't phase her.

Go figure.

LOL, she can't rack the slide on it even today, yet she does Yoga and is an exercise/foody type.

 

[Sistema1927]

I am not sure that the assassination weapon analogy works in the arena of self-defense. This is due to the fact that the person being assassinated is not performing a violent assault against the assassin. In many cases the target doesn't die for hours or days, if at all. Teddy Roosevelt caught an assassin's bullet in the chest and continued his speech. McKinley took 8 days to die, and then from gangrene.

In a self-defense situation you want to stop your attacker from continuing his attack. A bullet that allows him to continue his speech may not stop his attack. A bullet that kills him 8 days later from infection may not keep him from killing you first.

 

[Shed]

I am not sure that the assassination weapon analogy works in the arena of self-defense. This is due to the fact that the person being assassinated is not performing a violent assault against the assassin. In many cases the target doesn't die for hours or days, if at all. Teddy Roosevelt caught an assassin's bullet in the chest and continued his speech. McKinley took 8 days to die, and then from gangrene.

In a self-defense situation you want to stop your attacker from continuing his attack. A bullet that allows him to continue his speech may not stop his attack. A bullet that kills him 8 days later from infection may not keep him from killing you first.

I hear you; like I said, not necessarily the best. I do find it to be an interesting illustration of the lethality of smaller calibers. In general though I just look @ ft/lbs of energy and leave it at that.

 

[Warp]

One way to look at this stuff (not saying it's the best) is to see what has been used in assassinations , as there is usually more public information about the firearm and caliber used:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_by_assassination

Not a ton of big bore in there

That is a poor way to look at this stuff. Very poor. For one, in a defensive gun use we don't give a flying poop about whether or not our firearm choice is capable of causing our attacker to die eventually. It does you no good whatsoever if they die a day later, an hour later, or a minute later. We need them to STOP their actions RIGHT NOW.

Then there is the fact that in an assassination you hope to get a clean shot at a person that doesn't even know you are there or gunning for them, so shot placement is likely to differ. A .22lr to the back of the head is completely irrelevant to self defense.

 

[Shed]

That is a poor way to look at this stuff. Very poor. For one, in a defensive gun use we don't give a flying poop about whether or not our firearm choice is capable of causing our attacker to die eventually. It does you no good whatsoever if they die a day later, an hour later, or a minute later. We need them to STOP their actions RIGHT NOW.

Then there is the fact that in an assassination you hope to get a clean shot at a person that doesn't even know you are there or gunning for them, so shot placement is likely to differ. A .22lr to the back of the head is completely irrelevant to self defense.

Once again, I said it was not the best, just an interesting illustration. Meant it more as a learning exercise, not necessarily a point I'm defending, but I think it does have some value. I do appreciate your comment though. As I said in another post, I prefer to look at ft/lbs.

That said, another thought to consider is what people like Grant Cunningham say: it's about the number of holes you can put in someone, and caliber wars can be quite unproductive. Even if a cartridge is "underpowered", ease of handling and less recoil often allow an individual to put more shots on target than with a "high power" cartridge, possibly leading it to be more effective. Just a thought.

 

[Mickey Rat]

I'm 64, overweight, arthritic with a bad knee & back. I pulled up my pants for 25 years and carried what I wanted. Now, arthritic hands, light clothing and no butt limits what I'm willing & able to carry. A gun is a tool. A handgun is not really adequate, period. If a handgun is presented, the attacker will 1: stop or not. Nobody wants to get shot, even a little. 2: Handgun fires. Attacker stops or not. 3: Attacker hit one or more times, not in PHYSICAL or NEURAL stopping area (head, spine, hip or knee) then he will continue attack. Most GSW aren't fatal. Period. Best for me? 22 lr or 22 mag revolver (remember, bad hands) 10.5 oz S&W 317 (8×22lr) or 351PD (7×22mag). I try to avoid bad areas, maintain situational awareness and carry even in my living room. I also have a range at home & shoot weekly with 3 or 4 friends. I can still keep all rounds on a playing card DA from 10 yds. All on a USPSA target rapid fire without sights @ 7 yds. You work with the tools you have, optiomise your skills & hope for the best. If you shoot them & they don't stop, caliber won't be the problem. Carried for 40 years & almost needed it three times. A handgun can change you perception. Holding a gun in your hand in your pocket allows you to control your fear and in my case the situation enough to escape the situation. Actuality showing a gun is sometimes enough. This "enough gun" has and will continue forever. It all starts with RULE NUMBER ONE: have a gun, then work on the rest and hope you don't need it.

 

[Warp]

I'm 64, overweight, arthritic with a bad knee & back. I pulled up my pants for 25 years and carried what I wanted. Now, arthritic hands, light clothing and no butt limits what I'm willing & able to carry. A gun is a tool. A handgun is not really adequate, period. If a handgun is presented, the attacker will 1: stop or not. Nobody wants to get shot, even a little. 2: Handgun fires. Attacker stops or not. 3: Attacker hit one or more times, not in PHYSICAL or NEURAL stopping area (head, spine, hip or knee) then he will continue attack. Most GSW aren't fatal. Period. Best for me? 22 lr or 22 mag revolver (remember, bad hands) 10.5 oz S&W 317 (8×22lr) or 351PD (7×22mag). I try to avoid bad areas, maintain situational awareness and carry even in my living room. I also have a range at home & shoot weekly with 3 or 4 friends. I can still keep all rounds on a playing card DA from 10 yds. All on a USPSA target rapid fire without sights @ 7 yds. You work with the tools you have, optiomise your skills & hope for the best. If you shoot them & they don't stop, caliber won't be the problem. Carried for 40 years & almost needed it three times. A handgun can change you perception. Holding a gun in your hand in your pocket allows you to control your fear and in my case the situation enough to escape the situation. Actuality showing a gun is sometimes enough. This "enough gun" has and will continue forever. It all starts with RULE NUMBER ONE: have a gun, then work on the rest and hope you don't need it.

It's not about being fatal.

There is a significant difference in ability to stop an attack between tiny and service cartridge handguns.

If you shoot them and they don't stop, it is possible the cartridge you used was the difference, especially when talking about a .22lr vs a service cartridge.

You make your choice, but it doesn't help to whitewash reality.

 

[MarkDido]

I'm 64, overweight, arthritic with a bad knee & back. I pulled up my pants for 25 years and carried what I wanted. Now, arthritic hands, light clothing and no butt limits what I'm willing & able to carry. A gun is a tool. A handgun is not really adequate, period. If a handgun is presented, the attacker will 1: stop or not. Nobody wants to get shot, even a little. 2: Handgun fires. Attacker stops or not. 3: Attacker hit one or more times, not in PHYSICAL or NEURAL stopping area (head, spine, hip or knee) then he will continue attack. Most GSW aren't fatal. Period. Best for me? 22 lr or 22 mag revolver (remember, bad hands) 10.5 oz S&W 317 (8×22lr) or 351PD (7×22mag). I try to avoid bad areas, maintain situational awareness and carry even in my living room. I also have a range at home & shoot weekly with 3 or 4 friends. I can still keep all rounds on a playing card DA from 10 yds. All on a USPSA target rapid fire without sights @ 7 yds. You work with the tools you have, optiomise your skills & hope for the best. If you shoot them & they don't stop, caliber won't be the problem. Carried for 40 years & almost needed it three times. A handgun can change you perception. Holding a gun in your hand in your pocket allows you to control your fear and in my case the situation enough to escape the situation. Actuality showing a gun is sometimes enough. This "enough gun" has and will continue forever. It all starts with RULE NUMBER ONE: have a gun, then work on the rest and hope you don't need it.

"Best for me? 22 lr or 22 mag revolver (remember, bad hands) 10.5 oz S&W 317 (8×22lr) or 351PD (7×22mag)."

I considered getting my wife a 9 shot .22 revolver for the house. I think Taurus marketed one that came with 2 cylinders, .22 LR and .22 Mag

She is small, old and disabled and my thinking was I would rather have her hit someone 3 or 4 times with a .22 then miss 5 times with a .38.

 

[Gun Master]

I'm 64, overweight, arthritic with a bad knee & back. I pulled up my pants for 25 years and carried what I wanted. Now, arthritic hands, light clothing and no butt limits what I'm willing & able to carry. A gun is a tool. A handgun is not really adequate, period. If a handgun is presented, the attacker will 1: stop or not. Nobody wants to get shot, even a little. 2: Handgun fires. Attacker stops or not. 3: Attacker hit one or more times, not in PHYSICAL or NEURAL stopping area (head, spine, hip or knee) then he will continue attack. Most GSW aren't fatal. Period. Best for me? 22 lr or 22 mag revolver (remember, bad hands) 10.5 oz S&W 317 (8×22lr) or 351PD (7×22mag). I try to avoid bad areas, maintain situational awareness and carry even in my living room. I also have a range at home & shoot weekly with 3 or 4 friends. I can still keep all rounds on a playing card DA from 10 yds. All on a USPSA target rapid fire without sights @ 7 yds. You work with the tools you have, optiomise your skills & hope for the best. If you shoot them & they don't stop, caliber won't be the problem. Carried for 40 years & almost needed it three times. A handgun can change you perception. Holding a gun in your hand in your pocket allows you to control your fear and in my case the situation enough to escape the situation. Actuality showing a gun is sometimes enough. This "enough gun" has and will continue forever. It all starts with RULE NUMBER ONE: have a gun, then work on the rest and hope you don't need it.

I think a little bit of advise that I received on THR from the late great " rc model " might help.
Get a pair of Perry Suspenders . I got three in different colors.
They are very helpful keeping your pants up when " you're totin' " .

 

[Boarhunter]

Mickey Rat,

I am a much younger 62 and have used Perry Suspenders for years, but otherwise your story is my story. I carry a Smith 43C 8-shot 22lr revolver on my hip and an identical one in my front pants pocket. I practice with them several times a week and am better than competent in their use. I feel comfortable with my choices for EDC, all things considered. And if others disagree, I am happy for them....

BOARHUNTER

 

[SigsNCigs]

99.9% of statistics arent factual

 

[pezo]

I listens to a massad ayoob video where he interviews a legendary Chicago cop. The cop was involved in a shooting where a 160 pound man took 6 rounds of .45 lc, 5 rounds of .38+p swchp and 6 rounds of .44 mag silver tips. The bad guy, holding a butcher knife, only stopped when a .44 mag took out his knee cap causing him to physically drop immobil. The perp died 10 days later. On the other hand there were (are) two videos posted on this forum showing a store clerk drop a bad guy with a single solid hit and a security guard drop a bank robber with again one (or two) solid hit(s). All the defensive cartridges on the market will do the job if they are placed on target properly and its gods will you don't die that day. You will run out of time before ammo. Fast hits on target and retreat and escape.

 

[Warp]

I listens to a massad ayoob video where he interviews a legendary Chicago cop. The cop was involved in a shooting where a 160 pound man took 6 rounds of .45 lc, 5 rounds of .38+p swchp and 6 rounds of .44 mag silver tips. The bad guy, holding a butcher knife, only stopped when a .44 mag took out his knee cap causing him to physically drop immobil. The perp died 10 days later. On the other hand there were (are) two videos posted on this forum showing a store clerk drop a bad guy with a single solid hit and a security guard drop a bank robber with again one (or two) solid hit(s). All the defensive cartridges on the market will do the job if they are placed on target properly and its gods will you don't die that day. You will run out of time before ammo. Fast hits on target and retreat and escape.

Well, the amount and type of ammo you have will certainly be a factor there lol

The way it seems to break in the real world, time is certainly the limiting reactant far more often than ammo. No guarantees though.

 

[joneb]

It's not about what you use but how you use what you have.

 

[peacebutready]

I listens to a massad ayoob video where he interviews a legendary Chicago cop. The cop was involved in a shooting where a 160 pound man took 6 rounds of .45 lc, 5 rounds of .38+p swchp and 6 rounds of .44 mag silver tips. The bad guy, holding a butcher knife, only stopped when a .44 mag took out his knee cap causing him to physically drop immobil. The perp died 10 days later.

I listened to that as well. The following is speculation on my part: Perhaps the .45 lc was either filled with light h.p. ammo that didn't penetrate sufficiently or missed the vitals, the .38+P maybe was Remington swchp that didn't penetrate sufficiently (the same swchp in Federal and Winchester penetrates more) or missed the vitals, and the .44 mag silver tips missed the vitals.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I listened to that as well. The following is speculation on my part: Perhaps the .45 lc was either filled with light h.p. ammo that didn't penetrate sufficiently or missed the vitals, the .38+P maybe was Remington swchp that didn't penetrate sufficiently (the same swchp in Federal and Winchester penetrates more) or missed the vitals, and the .44 mag silver tips missed the vitals.

That's the critical thing, isn't it? If you don't break something important your attacker may not stop, regardless of the caliber, bullet weight or type you use.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I tend to think that an attacker selecting victims because they are old is pretty much the kind of attacker that will flee if a gun is drawn, pretty much any gun. That may not be true once things get entangled though. Once in a fight rational thought goes out the window as adrenaline kicks in.

 

[strambo]

I tend to think that an attacker selecting victims because they are old is pretty much the kind of attacker that will flee if a gun is drawn, pretty much any gun. That may not be true once things get entangled though. Once in a fight rational thought goes out the window as adrenaline kicks in.

I agree that statistically this will be true.

From an end user standpoint though, are you preparing for the the ones who will run, or the ones who won't?

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I agree that statistically this will be true.

From an end user standpoint though, are you preparing for the the ones who will run, or the ones who won't?

Exactly.

A gunfight is already a worst case scenario. Some people seem to be planning more for the best case, worst case scenario, or the average anomaly. This makes no sense. It is wiser to have as much firepower available as you can carry in preparation not for the best worst case scenario, but the worst. If you have 25 of your 30 rounds available after the threat has been eliminated, or better yet, don't have to fire a shot upon presenting a firearm, so much the better. But if you end up in one of those truly nightmarish situations where, say, you have to suppress and defend against a couple active shooters with rifles or a few guys with pistols and body armor, you will definitely wish you had more than your 5 shot J-frame.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

 

[pezo]

/\ /\. Or what if you are thrown down and have an attacker on you with a blade? Contact distance. What would you think was better? A j frame pressed up on a torso or a pistol knocked out of battery? Or what about a mugger pointing a gun at you? Your finger on a pocketed j frame or lcr or a small .380. Not saying one is better than the other to carry. Carry what you like but I can think of all kind of scenarios. Taking on multiple people with armor and rifles would be a loosing situation and less likely than my scenerios.