How they will take your Guns....

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Take note - in 1997 - after many years of ownership and shooting - I was still there in UK - I know what happened.

Privelage yes - not a right but - it happened! Again - frog in pot - remember that too.

Immunity does not exist other than in the dictionary!
 
I posted this article to get people thinking out of the box.

Despite the occasional 'dead hands' or 'tinfoil hat' reference, I think that purpose succeeded.

Americans do things quite differently than the rest of the world when confronted with dubious authority. The English and Australians quietly clean their guns and turn them into scrap in large numbers. I think Americans might dig in their heels a bit more....sheeple nonwithstanding.

Our history is one of self-reliance. As recently as 40 years ago large numbers of citizens used firearms to protect themselves from government malfeasance (blacks in the South). Even here in non-CCW south Jersey, guns are an accepted part of self-defense for our huge retired population.

Yes, we have had some successes in RKBA, but as has been pointed out in this tread, there have been no reversals of law. That freakin’ feel-good AWB doesn’t count.

All it would take would be a Democrat president with a majority in the house and senate again…something you know will happen someday. Then it’s back to Pilosi and her ‘turn them in’ agenda. I’m almost 60 and used to shoot in the school basement in a government funded program. That was stopped because of issues with lead bullets…water started getting warm 50 years ago.

I think the analogy of the boiling frog is very apt.

We all have to resist every single attack, of every type, in every state on our RKBA. Anything that even looks like it might affect your gun rights needs to be resisted.

Jersey is gone and getting worse with the insistence on Smart Guns and a new gun confiscation bill pending. The new RealID act could develop into a national gun registry. The NRA is too interested in compromise to be a help.

What to do?

I make it a point to take as many new shooters to the range as possible. I’m a college teacher and offer range-access with guns and instructions to my students….dozens take me up on it each year. They may be slackers and may have voted for Kerry, but even so, exposing a couple of dozen young people a year to the shooting sports seems more worthwhile to me than my wasted vote in Jersey.

I try to throw the occasional ice cube in the water.
 
I know that the storing of the 4473 forms is technically unconstitutinal. What would be nessisary to FORCE the ATF to destroy such documentation. An executive order, supreme court rulling, well hidden rider bill placed into the next big military spending bill. Can some wise person please enlighten me.
 
I think the analogy of the boiling frog is very apt.
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It sure is. If anyone believes the idiotic tale of how a frog will stay in a boiling pot of water, they certainly might be prone to believing that wearing tinfoil on their heads will protect them from mind control rays and every other conspiracy in the book. :neener:
 
Never, ever forget that this is a nation that constitutionally outlawed beer, wine & spirits... and we all know how that social experiment fared. Others have either forgotten, never knew it or just plain do not care to extrapolate one lesson learned for another.

We've all watched the UK, Australia, Canada, California, NJ, NYC, etc. governmental decree(s) and the horrible bloodletting in the streets that followed... right?
Our grandfathers (great grandfathers?) watched as arms a militia member might actually need & use (keep and bear?) were "regulated" to a point where few, if any of the average American Joe's could own them. (Infringed? No, silly boy, simply REGULATED.

We've watched as income taxes were passed (only for the RICH, never to go above 7%), possession of gold was outlawed (like booze, one of the few laws recinded...), ID number cards issued (never to be used for ID purposes, right?) for better keeping in our golden years... mission creep they call it, I believe...

...and darn-it, once these laws and regulations get going, it seems downright impossible to stop them; even if ya do vote the elected bad guys out circa 1994 and come in with some newly elected good guys... it only takes a small taste of power before they quickly become elected, but different, bad guys.

We've all read Orwell's Animal Farm, and know how words in the Constitution become twisted and strained over time until the words as written no longer mean what they meant. Just ask some judges, lawyers, teachers or elected officials... :uhoh:

So yes, we probably will see the day when more laws will be passed and the majority of law-abiding citizenry will do the "right thing" and turn in whatever prohibited items they once proudly owned while the small remainder will make certain the old maxim becomes the unvarnished truth...

"When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns"

And I will be a Criminal.

Criminals can, have been and will be shot... if & when required.

I won't die a Free Man, I'll die a Criminal.

It can't happen here?

Beer.

18th (& 21st) Amendment(s).

America.

Educate our young to know their American history and TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
Educate our elected officials.
LOBBY!
Never Stop the Process.

"When in the Course of human events"... came along AFTER Lexington and Concord...
 
It sure is. If anyone believes the idiotic tale of how a frog will stay in a boiling pot of water, they certainly might be prone to believing that wearing tinfoil on their heads will protect them from mind control rays and every other conspiracy in the book.
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Why are some people so desperate to convince others that "All Is Well"? Or are you just trying to convince yourselves? "Idiots", "Tinfoil", "conspiracy"... :rolleyes: And now attacking the frog story? Ever tried it? I did, just for the helluvit. Little slimy bastage will just sit there till he rolls over dead...the secret is to not make the water start to bubble. Just keep things smooth on the surface and the frog, much like some people, will keep convincing itself nothing is wrong.
 
Since I have done it, seen it done and there is, somewhere online, a long boring video of it being done snopes is once again, as is increasingly common, wrong. Hell, I saw it done as a kid by my 6th grade science teacher long before I ever knew there was a saying about it .

But snopes says so so it's gotta be true. Afterall, you found it online... :rolleyes:
 
I am going to catch five frogs tomorrow. It was too dark to mess with it by the time I thought of it today. I will perform the experiment according to the "wives tale":

1) Boil water, toss in frog. Assumption: It will leap out.

2) Get water(and frogs) to room temp, place frog in slowly heating pot and one in rapidly heating pot. The other two are spares, since frogs have a way of getting away from me. Assumption: Frogs will sit there till they die(though I'll attempt to remove them beforehand once I think my assumption is proven or disproven). If they die then I'll have(small) froglegs. Having seen and done this before I feel secure of the results on #2. I expect the results on #1 to be predictable, also, but we'll see.

No whining from anybody. If you've ever eaten lobster anyway. One animal is about as smart as the other and nobody cries for the poor crustaceans when they get boiled and they don't even have a means of escape.
 
Some of you guys really crack me up.

Hey I don't think snopes is gospel either, so here are some other references:

http://www.uga.edu/srel/ecoview11-18-02.htm

"Although I do not know a data based answer myself, I am aware of experiments that have been done on responses of amphibians to thermal conditions. In some of the experiments the temperature was gradually raised, so I feel certain someone familiar with those studies would have an impression of what a frog would do as the water warmed up. I am sending your question to Dr. Victor Hutchison at the University of Oklahoma to see what he says. I would be interested to know also."

Vic's answer was as follows: "The legend is entirely incorrect! The `critical thermal maxima' of many species of frogs have been determined by several investigators. In this procedure, the water in which a frog is submerged is heated gradually at about 2 degrees Fahrenheit per minute. As the temperature of the water is gradually increased, the frog will eventually become more and more active in attempts to escape the heated water. If the container size and opening allow the frog to jump out, it will do so." Naturally, if the frog were not allowed to escape it would eventually begin to show signs of heat stress, muscular spasms, heat rigor, and death.
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http://www.fastcompany.com/online/01/frog.html
First we spoke with national scientific authorities. According to Dr. George R. Zug, curator of reptiles and amphibians, the National Museum of Natural History, "Well that's, may I say, bull****. If a frog had a means of getting out, it certainly would get out. And I cannot imagine that anything dropped in boiling water would not be scalded and die from the injuries."
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"I am going to catch five frogs tomorrow. It was too dark to mess with it by the time I thought of it today. I will perform the experiment according to the "wives tale":

If you are kidding that's hilarious, if not, that's pathetic. Still hilarious, but also pathetic, kinda like equating BATF agents with street gangs.
 
I'm a very law abiding 54 year old. I will of course give my firearms up. When they figure out I'm not a threat to the political process, they will, of course, return them to me. ADDED: Don't worry, be happy.
 
So how is that hilarious? DMF just quoted other experiments of the exact nature of my intended ones. Are they hilarious? If so then you're not much of one for learning, eh? If not then you're obviously just trolling again.
 
I am a naieve idealist...

...and I don't think any such thing will happen in my lifetime.

BUT, I have this brass plaque I had made and glued to the front of my gun safe that says:

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?

The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

-- Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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Nio
 
So how is that hilarious? DMF just quoted other experiments of the exact nature of my intended ones. Are they hilarious? If so then you're not much of one for learning, eh? If not then you're obviously just trolling again.
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Well the difference is one was a controlled scientific experiment done for academic research. The other is the result of rantings from someone who clings to his beliefs regardless of any other facts to the contrary. It is indeed funny if you were joking, and pathetic if you would actually torture some frogs despite the fact the concept has already been proven to be a myth.

The story about the frog is just like many other myths. Despite no real proof that they are true, and often despite objective evidence they are completely false, people continue to believe the myth because it fits their irrational, pre-conceived notions. It's often easier for some to rant and rave irrationally clinging to the myths, rather than view the facts with an open mind, and admit they were wrong. ;)
 
DMF ~

I don't often agree with you, but I do generally respect you.

This rant of yours above, however, leaves little room for respect.

What 2A proposed was simply to find out whether the frogs-in-water story is a myth or not. He suggested he'd do the experiment himself to find out whether it is, in actual fact, true.

For that, you slam him? "It's often easier for some to rant and rave irrationally clinging to the myths, rather than view the facts with an open mind, and admit they were wrong."

Good grief! The man isn't taking it on authority, irrationally clinging to the myth. He's going to go find out himself.

2A, I want to see a video of the results, please.

(Oh, seems to me, if you've got one of those coffee-heater wand thingies, that would be the most appropriate method to use heating the water. If the bottom of the pan gets too hot, of course froggie will move even when the water is still not uncomfy. As for the rest, I reserve judgement ... but I'd like to see the results of your experiment if you do it.)

pax
 
So pax, both Dr. Hutchison of the University of Oklahoma, Department of Zoology, and Dr. Zug of the National Museum of Natural History have stated it's not true, Hutchison based on his own research*, yet you still encourage 2A to torture a couple of frogs. Now that makes no sense, and I stand by the content of my post, in it's entirety. To torture a couple of animals for no good reason, is indeed pathetic.

*Link to Dr. Hutchison's Page at OU Zoology Dept.
 
DMF ~

I eat lobster.

And I generally reject authority, especially when authorities disagree.

pax

When you make the finding yourself - even if you're the last person on Earth to see the light - you'll never forget it. -- Carl Sagan
 
To torture a couple of animals for no good reason, is indeed pathetic.
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This, coming from an individual (self-proclaimed agent himself, no less) who has gone out of his way, to vehemently defend .gov actions a Waco, is quite troubling. Depends on who's doing the torturing, and why?

It's often easier for some to rant and rave irrationally clinging to the myths, rather than view the facts with an open mind, and admit they were wrong.
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Matthew 7:1-5, indeed.
 
My memory is a little foggy ... I seem to recall a survey of U.S. special forces by the military during the Klinton reign. There was a question that asked how operators would feel about going door to door to confiscate weapons from U.S. civilians.

Anyone have that link or story reference?

thx.
 
I believe the best outcome in this scenario would be to move to the states that were resisting this legislation (most likely the south and midwest) and secede. Hmmm...deja vu?
 
DMF:
people continue to believe the myth because it fits their irrational, pre-conceived notions.
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Kinda like, "We're from the government. We're here to help you"?
Or, "We live in a democracy"? The list could go on and on...

2A - I too, am interested in your experiment. Please let us know the results.
 
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