How to choose Brinell hardness on a cast bullet

[levsmith]

I am ready to start reloading for the 1911 as I am almost out of my stash of factory ammo. I have reloaded quite a few plated Berry's bullets for the 9mm and 380 but have never used just plain cast bullets before, so this is a learning curve for me. I think I have decided on the 200 grain LSWC bullets but have a question on them. I like the price of Missouri Bullets but am confused on the Brinell hardness options. Basically I have two options, "H&G #68 Brinell 12, For Target Velocity" and "H&G #68 Brinell 18, For Major Power Factor". My plan for these is mainly plinking and I would like to use W231 since I already have that powder on hand.

Now on to the confusion, I was reading Missouri's webpage about how to calculate which hardness I need (here) and according to their example of a 200 grain LSWC with 5 grains of Bullseye, it produces 20,000 CUPS and would need the 18 Brinell. My Modern Reloading Second Edition shows 4.0 max of bullseye for that bullet with a pressure unit of 9800 psi. Now this is what confuses me, for one, i know 5.0 of bullseye is a common load, why 4.0 max in the manual? And two, Modern Reloading shows cups for some powders and psi for others under the same bullet type. I know that they do not have a direct correlation so it isn't really possible to convert accurately.

So I guess on to my question, how do I know which hardness I need if neither of my manuals (Modern Reloading and Speer #14) tell me the CUPS for the powder I want to use? Is there a chart somewhere showing CUPS at different powder charges? Hopefully someone here can lead my in the right direction.

Thanks for any help!

 

[joneb]

https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

 

[levsmith]

I read that and linked to it in my post. Neither of my reloading manuals show CUPS for W231

 

[ewlyon]

If you are using the bullets for target work and not really pushing them the 12bhn should be fine. The formula is fine for estimating but this sort of thing is not concrete, more like jello in fact. As long as the bullets are the proper size relative to your bore, you can get by with softer bullets than standard. Check out their coated bullets which allows softer alloy while keeping the bore clean of lead

 

[armoredman]

Wait until you start casting them yourself - then it really gets fun.

 

[nettlle]

There are some listings for CUP with W231 here:

http://15web.com/Oz/userfiles/Loads.pdf

 

[ReloaderFred]

I cast most of my bullets for .45 acp at Bhn 12. I use the same alloy for .38 Special bullets, too. I get zero leading with either caliber with the .45 acp and .45 Colt bullets sized .452" and the .38 Bullets sized .358".

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Steve C]

The simple explanation: The .45 acp is a low pressure cartridge that runs around 22K psi maximum SAAMI for non plus P ammo. Use a softer bullet for the .45 acp and you will be fine for standard to softer loads as the softer bullet will bump up and fill the bore at the lower pressure. Hard cast at low pressure usually leads as gas blow by melts the bullet sides on the bore as the bullets bases do not bump up in size from low pressure and the bullet fails to fill the bore.

The 18 BNH hardness works well for magnums shooting at magnum loading and higher pressures greater than 30K psi. The greater pressure will bump up the base of these bullets, filling the bore while the harder lead will resist melting to the bore from the extra speed generated.

I suffered with leading mostly in the .357 magnum and .38 spl until the internet came into existence and someone finally explained the use of proper hardness with lead bullets. I still remember the first time I loaded hard cast 158gr LSWC's to full power magnum pressure (12.2 grs AA#9) and shot then through my Model 66. Wonders of wonders, no leading! Most of what I'd read in manuals years earlier all said not to push lead bullet too fast or you'd get leading but they never really said what was too fast. I kept lowering the velocity and using harder bullets to try to avoid leading and got lots of it instead. For many years I gave up on lead and just loaded jacketed.

 

[Walkalong]

Buy the 12 BHN bullets from MB and you'll be fine. Those, W231, and the .45 ACP are a perfect match.

 

[kcofohio]

Or for a few bucks more per 500, get the Hi-Tek coated bullet. Cuts the chance of lube fouling too.

 

[joem1945]

I buy B18 for everything except .45 colt. I get B12 because that's the bullet weight I want. I did try B12 in a .44 mag. Very accurate for 20 rounds the lead made the barrel a smooth bore. Yikes!

 

[Mauser69]

So I guess on to my question, how do I know which hardness I need if neither of my manuals (Modern Reloading and Speer #14) tell me the CUPS for the powder I want to use? Is there a chart somewhere showing CUPS at different powder charges? Hopefully someone here can lead my in the right direction.

Copper units of pressure and PSI are not the same, and there is no direct easy formula for conversion. There are a couple of people over the years that claim they have a formula, but the conversion is still only approximate. The good news for your purpose is that the pressures in either unit are reasonably close and you can interchange them for the general BHN calculation.

Bullet hardness as it relates to pressure and obturation is a general guideline, not a critical number with a specific cutoff, and you will find that other factors, including type of lube and bullet fit to the barrel lands, have a greater impact on leading a bore than the actual bullet hardness. As to why you see both units of measure in the same manuals - here is a little background:

Way back before modern electronics, chamber pressure was measured by how much it could crush either a lead or copper pellet of specific dimensions, resulting in LUP numbers or CUP numbers, with copper being the most common. Modern Piezoelectric Transducers are much easier to use, and they produce an electronic signal calibrated in pounds per square inch, which is a linear scale. As a result, virtually all new test results are shown in PSI, but all older data that has not been re-done is still shown in CUP or LUP.

 

[BigBore45]

12 bhn would be fine. don't go over 900 fps IMO. but that's pushing it in a 45 acp anyways, not really plinking velocity with the 200 grain.

but I run 165gr. RNFPGC powder coated at 16 BHN out of a .308 win at 1600 FPS without leading. so 12 BHN should be fine in the 45 acp.

I could get into a long conversation about BHN and everything that is going on. best to read Richard Lees Modern reloading book #2 about lead BHN choice.

 

[TimSr]

45 acp is on the low end of the pressure scale, and BRN will probably shoot better, especially on the lower end of the plinking scale. 18's do well on the low end if they are a perfect fit, but they like to be magnum driver to obturate well.

 

[USSR]

...am confused on the Brinell hardness options. Basically I have two options, "H&G #68 Brinell 12, For Target Velocity" and "H&G #68 Brinell 18, For Major Power Factor".

And the commercial bullet casters have done a good job of confusing you. They have convinced a lot of guys that their 12 BHN bullets are "soft", and for anything above target shooting velocities you need 18 BHN bullets. They have even devised a formula to convince you that you need their super hard bullets. Bunk! Elmer Keith developed the .44 Magnum load using 11 BHN bullets. The reason the commercial casters cast their bullets so hard is because they look pretty and hold up well in shipping. And then, to add insult to injury, they use a very hard lube that does little at low velocities. I cast my 200 grain LSWC bullets to a hardness of about 9. Sized properly and using a good lube (White Label's BAC) they will not lead at .45 ACP pressures/velocities. If you are buying and not casting your own, take the 12 BHN bullets all the time. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[gilgsn]

Hi, I second Don here, 12 is more than enough. I would not use 18 below magnum pressure and velocities.
Gil

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Just get coated bullets like others have said. No lead, no smoke in the face, and be done.

I've cast and coated thousands of them for 9mm, 45, 10mm, and .357. No worries. My 10mm loves the 175gr SWC.

 

[joneb]

I had a load that works well in a Colt 1911 Gov. 45 acp with a Penn 200 gr. BHN 12 LTCPB, the same load in a Remington R-1 commander leads the barrel It's like a box of chocolates, you need to try it and see what you get. Most bullet casters offer samples.

 

[oldpapps]

Looks to me like 99.99% of the responses above this one are correct in the view they present. I will try to respond only to your question.

Lower brinell number is softer lead, softer lead fills out the barrel quicker and at lower pressures. This gives less gas cutting (burning gasses sneak past the bullet base and cuts a trail up the side of the lead bullet) at lower pressures.
Higher brinell number is harder lead, harder lead fills out the barrel at higher pressures and is less likely to strip off soft lead at higher velocities.

As you stated you want to shoot lighter loads, go with the 12 brinell.

I have used 231 (now also listed at HP-38) for, well I used Olin 230 till they quit making it and replaced it with 231. The 'new' max load, or one that I saw, is 5.6 grains with 200 grain LSWC. I have been useing that 5.6 grains of 231 with all 200 grain .451/.452 bullets from the start. I normally get the 12 brinell lead but using the above bullet selection listing, I should be using the 16 brinell bullets. None of my 3 1911s or 1917 S&W or Marlin Campgun or Springfield XD, lead the barrels. So, who knows?

As for powder coating. I love it, for faster bullets. If I shot inside, I would go to coated bullets just to be rid of the lube burning off/smoke.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Ill add this if you run 12 BHN make sure your loads don't get to light either. If your pressure isn't up the bullet wont obturate well and it will lead the barrel up good.

Really for low pressure calibers like the 45 acp i like an 8-10. That way you don't have to worry about obturation. But if i run 12bhn i don't load low power plinkers.

Heck many people worry about hardness and getting more of it when too hard causes more leading than soft in most cases for common pistol calibers.

10-12 is good for 9mm, 45, 40, and .357. But for .38's i'd go back to an 8 to 10 max.

All this is nice to know but I'm afraid its a knowledge that's dying with every coated bullet. Before long it will be a few who keep it and use it for preference or cowboy loads compared to how many know and use it now.

 

[daboone]

I know many reloader don't like Lee Precision but their manual Modern Reloading Second Edition by Richard Lee has a chapter on understanding BHN and pressures that is written in understandable language. It will give you a real understanding of bullet casting vs pressures that is invaluable. If you want to know the whats and whys read that chapter.

 

[levsmith]

Thank you everyone for the replies. Since I am lucky enough to live very close to Powder Valley, I will be ordering through them along with some other supplies. They do not stock the coated version of the 200 grain LSWC so I will probably be trying the standard 12 Brinell lead version. Oh and ventilation is not a problem for me because I have never shot at an indoor range. Again, thank you all for the information, it has helped me a lot!

 

[arspeukinen]

Wait until you start casting them yourself - then it really gets fun.

Took me 9 months to find a load that allows coated soft lead in 9mm while making the IPSC minor Power Factor of 125 and still stabilising... The feeling of accomplishment was indescribable.

 

[evan price]

Velocity divided by 100 gives you BHN, assuming proper size and lube. I cast 12bhn pretty much for everything except high velocity magnum.

 

[stubbicatt]

I'll share my experience with the 12 BHN MBC bullets. Very uniform, sized at .452". Still got leading. Melted the hard lube from the groove and replaced with a soft home made Emmeritt's lube. No leading in my 1911.

I hope OP has a good experience with these bullets.