How to get out of NICS once restored?

[skydve76]

Ill make this short:
Put into NICS for mental health issues 20 years ago (48 suicide watch).
My state patrol only uses NICS to issue a CCW which is good for 5 years and is used to purchase firearms. No NICS is run during a purchase if you have a CCW.

When I went to apply, I was denied. I hired an attorney, within 30 days had my rights restored.
SO I reapplied for my permit, the state patrol was trying to "get me out of NICS" but it kept failing, and refused to give my CCW. I hired another attorney with the intention of a federal lawsuit.
The state patrol caved and gave me my permit.
No idea where my original attorney went.
No idea if I was removed from NICS or not. I plan to have the sheriff check for me soon.

2 questions:
Is the only way to get out of NICS after restoration of rights is to file an appeal? It seems there should be a process for a state agency to remove records in the same way they can put them in but not sure.

I am 1000% positive that is the ONLY thing I am being denied for. Am I still not allowed to own firearms (federally) until I get out of NICS? I have a court order restoring my rights through the process my states defines, from the entity that put me into NICS. Im not sure if the legal docs are enough or if I have to clear NICS for it to be legit.

I know its possible to have rights at the state level and not federal, but my process is suppose to restore me at both.

 

[Craig_AR]

No NICS is run during a purchase if you have a CCW.

Can an attorney please clarify for me? NICS is a federal database, and I understood that FFLs are required to use it for all purchases by federal law. CCW/CHP/CCL is a state document, with procedures for obtaining one defined by state law. An FFL is required to run the NICS check at the time of purchase or delivery to ensure current information, lest a name had been added to NICS in the period since the last check. The OP's statement implies that obtaining a CCW in a state grants a five-year period of purchases without current NICS check. Is there provision in the federal laws for this state-level concealed carry process to override the basic FFL NICS check requirement?

Thanks.

 

[Theohazard]

OP, you keep saying "get out of NICS", and that seems to imply that being "in" NICS means you get denied. That's not how NICS works. You can't "get out" of NICS, all you can do is have your state, local, or federal authorities update the records that are currently causing you to be denied. But unless you can somehow erase all the records of your existence, you'll always be "in" NICS.

A NICS appeal is the most common way to do this, and often people involve a lawyer also. Apparently the lawyers you hired didn't finish the job. Or maybe there's something else going on here. Either way, a NICS appeal is the only way I know of to determine what's causing your denial.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/n...criminal-background-check-system-nics-appeals

 

[Theohazard]

Can an attorney please clarify for me? NICS is a federal database, and I understood that FFLs are required to use it for all purchases by federallaw.CCW/CHP/CCL is a state document, with procedures for obtaining one defined by state law. An FFL is required to run the NICS check at the time of purchase or delivery to ensure current information, lest a name had been added to NICS in the period since the last check. The OP's statement implies that obtaining a CCW in a state grants a five-year period of purchases without current NICS check. Is there provision in the federal laws for this state-level concealed carry process to override the basic FFL NICS check requirement?

Federal law allows a dealer to skip the NICS check provided that the transferee has a valid permit from the state where the transfer is occurring. Keep in mind that the permit only qualifies for an exemption if the permit meets federal requirements. Here's a list of approved permits:

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-permit-chart

Also, the state must allow for this exemption; some don't. For example, WA's Concealed Pistol License qualifies as a NICS exemption, but the state won't allow that exemption.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-there-transfers-are-exempt-nics-background-check-requirement

 

[Airman Basic]

Believe he's talking about NCIC, (don't you love govmintease) which is one place NICS gets its info from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Crime_Information_Center

 

[skydve76]

OP, you keep saying "get out of NICS", and that seems to imply that being "in" NICS means you get denied. That's not how NICS works. You can't "get out" of NICS, all you can do is have your state, local, or federal authorities update the records that are currently causing you to be denied. But unless you can somehow erase all the records of your existence, you'll always be "in" NICS.

A NICS appeal is the most common way to do this, and often people involve a lawyer also. Apparently the lawyers you hired didn't finish the job. Or maybe there's something else going on here. Either way, a NICS appeal is the only way I know of to determine what's causing your denial.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/n...criminal-background-check-system-nics-appeals

The way they word NICS checks is they run against databases looking for a match, so saying "get out of NICS" is the words the state patrol used and it make sense, but your playing a technicality on my words and know what I mean. . We already know the exact reason Im being denied, been in contact with the FBI and know it is/was a mental health denial form the entity I got relief from.

It seems to me an appeal would be used in the case of an erroneous denial. In my case its not in error, it just needs to be updated. So are you saying in order to get the records updated, I have to file an appeal and wait 2 years?

Also no one touched it, but can I own firewarms, I have the CCW/ purchase permit from my state.

 

[Theohazard]

The way they word NICS checks is they run against databases looking for a match, so saying "get out of NICS" is the words the state patrol used and it make sense, but your playing a technicality on my words and know what I mean.

I do know what you mean, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. You can't "get out" of NICS, and using that term could cause confusion for someone who doesn't understand that basics of how NICS works. This is the legal forum, and it's important to use precise terms in order to avoid confusion.

In my five years managing at two different FFLs, I performed thousands of NICS checks and I had countless interactions with the ATF (and the state equivalent agency) regarding firearms transfers, and I've never heard the term "get out of NICS" used.

It seems to me an appeal would be used in the case of an erroneous denial. In my case its not in error, it just needs to be updated.

This is a classic example of an erroneous denial: Your information was supposed to be updated and it wasn't. You shouldn't have been denied but you were, so it's erroneous.

So are you saying in order to get the records updated, I have to file an appeal and wait 2 years?

That's only way I know to determine the cause of a NICS denial and to get the denial overturned. Many of the customers I had get denied were in your same situation: They had a past issue that was supposed to be cleared up but it wasn't. But I'd suggest contacting a lawyer who specializes in this sort of thing, since a NICS appeal isn't guaranteed to fix your problem.

Also no one touched it, but can I own firewarms,

Getting denied by NICS doesn't prevent you from owning firearms, being a prohibited person does. If you're not prohibited by federal, state, or local law, you can own and possess firearms.

 

[AZAndy]

Can an attorney please clarify for me? NICS is a federal database, and I understood that FFLs are required to use it for all purchases by federal law. CCW/CHP/CCL is a state document, with procedures for obtaining one defined by state law. An FFL is required to run the NICS check at the time of purchase or delivery to ensure current information, lest a name had been added to NICS in the period since the last check. The OP's statement implies that obtaining a CCW in a state grants a five-year period of purchases without current NICS check. Is there provision in the federal laws for this state-level concealed carry process to override the basic FFL NICS check requirement?

Thanks.

Not an attorney, but as Theohazard said, it varies by state. Here in AZ, I show my ID and CCW, do the 4473, pay, and leave. Having the permit makes me popular with the counter people, as they're quite happy to be able to skip a step.

 

[skydve76]

I do know what you mean, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. You can't "get out" of NICS, and using that term could cause confusion for someone who doesn't understand that basics of how NICS works. This is the legal forum, and it's important to use precise terms in order to avoid confusion.

In my five years managing at two different FFLs, I performed thousands of NICS checks and I had countless interactions with the ATF (and the state equivalent agency) regarding firearms transfers, and I've never heard the term "get out of NICS" used.

This is a classic example of an erroneous denial: Your information was supposed to be updated and it wasn't. You shouldn't have been denied but you were, so it's erroneous.

That's only way I know to determine the cause of a denial. Most of the customers I had get denied were in your same situation: They had a past issue that was supposed to be cleared up but it wasn't. But I'd suggest contacting a lawyer, maybe there's a faster way.

Getting denied by NICS doesn't prevent you from owning firearms, being a prohibited person does. If you're not prohibited by federal, state, or local law, you can own and possess firearms.

Ok thanks for the clarifications. While an appeal is what the FBI requires, they are blocking due process by requiring that and I will be filing a lawsuit. If putting information into NICS is automated, then so should be taking it out as it it part of the same functionality. The appeals process should be reserved for those situations where wires get crossed, such as misidentification etc.

This case is not wires being crossed, this is a clear and utter blockage. They are not allowing my state to update records since I went through the process, and that is a problem. They sure as heck allowed them to put me in without any extra hoops.



Thanks.

 

[skydve76]

Not an attorney, but as Theohazard said, it varies by state. Here in AZ, I show my ID and CCW, do the 4473, pay, and leave. Having the permit makes me popular with the counter people, as they're quite happy to be able to skip a step.

Yes, so the US government does not know about your firearm purchases, and in my state, neither does the state.
I NICS inquiry can be used to track purchases, which is illegal but they do it anyways. Win for us.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The bottom line for the OP is that if NICS is not responding with correct information, he will need to find a way to correct the situation. We don't necessarily know whether the problem is at the level of the state process for reporting and updating information or at the federal level at the process for updating the database(s) used by NICS.

The OP probably needs a lawyer -- not a bunch of anonymous denizens of cyberspace.