How to teach autoloaders 101?

[Skribs]

I have a relative who gets easily confused with a semi-auto regarding when a round is in the chamber. It's not a safety issue (they always safety check when handling it and follow the four rules), but it is an issue when shooting, and I feel could be a safety issue if the gun was needed. This person carries a single-action pistol chamber empty. When going to the range, this is typical of starting off or loading a new magazine:

Step one: put in magazine.
Step two: pull trigger. Nothing.
Step three: pull hammer back, pull trigger again. Nothing.
Step four: check safety.
Step five: rack slide, pull trigger again. BANG.

The problem for me is that the workings seem to be pretty much common sense, especially with a little experience, so it's hard for me to explain it to this person. This person lacks the finger dexterity to shoot a double-action revolver and would prefer not to have to manually cock a revolver each time, so that has pretty much been ruled out. I think practice is needed, but I'm a believer in "practice doesn't pake perfect; it makes permanent" and I want this person to be able to skip steps 2-4 above if the situation arises where a gun is needed.

I guess what I'm looking for here are analogies, although very simple-to-understand instructions would work too.

 

[Inebriated]

Well first, I am inclined to ask... why not a striker-fired gun? They're carrying chamber empty, so the whole "safety issue" a lot of people have with them is moot, and they have no safety or heavy pull to deal with.

Anyway, it sounds like they don't know how the gun operates.

I would show them very clearly how it operates, then give them a magazine with some snap caps, and have them do a practice routine...
1. Draw
2. Remove safety
3. Chamber a round
4. Aim
5. Fire

Have them do it daily... once a day, twice a day, all day, doesn't matter. But they need to be intimately familiar with how that gun operates, and they need to be practicing how to get the gun out and chambered, so if they ever had to do it under any sort of stress, they could do it.

 

[reggie_love]

I'm unclear on what the problem is exactly. Are you saying this person simply forgets that they have an empty chamber and is slow to rectify the problem? (seems the most likely to me) Or are you saying that they actually don't know how the gun works/what racking does etc.?

In the first case, the answer is to drill. When shooting, always start with rack-aim-bang. Do this until it becomes pure habit. That way it's automatic in a defensive situation.

Honestly though, I would suggest some formal training. This person sounds like they're not 100% competent with a firearm yet. Carrying is a big deal, and there's a lot of good training available. Maybe you and him/her can take a defensive pistol course together? That seems to be the way to solve your problem.

 

[2wheels]

Really hard to think up an easy way to solve this issue, other than practice practice practice like their life depends on it.

After a while, chances are they'll either get it or they won't. If they don't, then I honestly don't know what to tell ya.

 

[C0untZer0]

NRA Basic Pistol course

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Wow! I don't quite know what to think about this.

A couple things come to mind here:

1. This is a famiarity issue, requiring training and re-enforcement of the training.

2. The way this is written also makes me consider the mental competence of the person you are speaking about. Please take no offense here, as I'm only going by what you've posted here; but your posting indicates that you've already put forth some level of training here yet this person is still having problems grasping a very basic issue with respect to semi-automatic pistols.


Either way, this person seems to be somewhat familiar with revolvers...so I'd consider the following:

1. Sit down at a bench with both a revolver and a semi-automatic. Use both pistols as visual training aids to illustrate how both function, paying particular attention to the differences.

A single action revolver must be cocked to fire...which rotates the empty chamber out and lines up a loaded chamber. Likewise, racking the slide on a semi-auto puts the initial round in the empty chamber.

2. The person already demonstrates the concept of loading a wheel gun with an empty chamber under the hammer. Use this as an analogy to explain how loading the magazine into a semi-automatic likewise does NOT chamber a round until the person takes an additional action to do so.

3. Range time. Lots of range time. And during this time period, I would consider loading the magazines for the semi-auto with fewer rounds than full capacity. This will have the benefit of getting the shooter used to loading a magazine more frequently than normal in order to re-enforce the training. (Have him do so with the slide forward...not locked back as during the last shot on an empty magazine.) It will also have the benefit of using less ammunition per magazine change, a savings on the pocket book.

 

[ku4hx]

How open is this person to learning something new and developing a new skill set?

As a former high school teacher, I can tell you teaching is not for the faint of heart, but it can be rewarding.

Studies show (got to love that phrase) an action starts to become a habit at about the 25th repetition. And, as is the usual case, whether it be driving, playing the violin or learning the manual of arms for a semi auto you have to practice, practice and practice more. And that requires large quantities of patience on the part of the student and mentor.

Over a period of several years, I'll take a large amount of credit for bring my wife from a frightened non shooter to an accomplished shooter. But at a certain point I recognized I needed to step into the background and let her do it alone. They'll all have to fly solo sooner or later or else park the plane.

You also have to understand that some people will simply never master certain things for whatever reason and you have to be honest about that. As much as a friend of mine wanted to a motorcycle ride with us, he eventually sold his bike. Dumping it the third time finally convinced him he just couldn't develop the skills. You as a mentor have to be vigilant and honest.

 

[45_auto]

This person lacks the finger dexterity to shoot a double-action revolver and would prefer not to have to manually cock a revolver each time, so that has pretty much been ruled out.

If a person doesn't have the finger dexterity to shoot a double action revolver (stick finger through trigger guard then pull trigger) I wouldn't even think about having them try to manipulate a semi-auto.

 

[Skribs]

This person has found that smaller semi-autos can work (didn't like larger ones because it was harder to rack the slide), and carries a Sig P238. I had originally suggested a striker-fired option, but there are multiple people in that household who prefer to carry safety on AND chamber empty for the sake of redundant safety. When I mention that me and the majority of people on here carry round in the chamber, and a lot of us carry without a manual safety, their attitude is that we're more into guns so we're more comfortable with them.

The individual is open to learning, I don't think that's the problem. Reggie, I think it's that they're not quite sure how it works. I think the issue is simply that everything happens beneath the surface, and this person is very visually oriented. Like I said, practice was going to be the suggestion, but I was wondering if there were any training aids. Formal instruction might not be a bad idea.

USNChief, no offense taken.

 

[holdencm9]

All good advice given so far.

I agree, it just seems so intuitive for me, that it is tough to explain. It is pretty simple that simply inserting a mag does not chamber a round (just like simply removing a mag does not remove a round from the chamber).

Sometimes pictures and animations help. Go to Genitron they have a great animation of all the workings of a Beretta and a Glock.

http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Interactive-Beretta-Pistol

ETA: Showing (on the animation) that there is a redundant safety in the firing pin catch safety might help them be more comfortable carring with a round in the chamber.

 

[Skribs]

I agree, it just seems so intuitive for me, that it is tough to explain. It is pretty simple that simply inserting a mag does not chamber a round (just like simply removing a mag does not remove a round from the chamber).

It's like trying to define "the".

 

[holdencm9]

It's like trying to define "the".

I hear ya! I went through something similar with my mom. She understood the chambering okay I think, but the decock/safety and double-action pull versus single action pull had her confused for a bit.

As in, you rack the slide which cocks the hammer, but if there is already a cartridge in the chamber and you decock, you now have to manually cock the hammer, unless you want to lose a perfectly good cartridge. Or just pull DA.

The genitron animation really helped.

 

[1911 guy]

My immediate thought was a lack of understanding about the function and operation of an autoloader. Perhaps the answer is not "Do it this way" but rather "Do it this way because..."

 

[2wheels]

I think they're making it hard on themselves. A P238 carried cocked and locked without a round in the chamber looks loaded to the average person, so I see where a small part of the confusion may possibly be coming from.

Along with large amounts of practice and possibly professional training already mentioned, I'd work on coaxing this person to carry differently. You might not ever be able to convince them to carry with a round in the chamber, but I figure if the hammer is down and the safety is off it will provide a visual cue to say "hey! I'm not loaded!".

If you can start them down that road, maybe someday they'll be comfortable with a fully loaded P238 cocked and locked, who knows?

 

[Skribs]

Convincing this person to carry chamber loaded isn't going to work. Trust me on that. Like I said, I've considered alternatives, but there's reasons why they won't work as well (revolvers) or the individual in question will not consider it (carry chamber loaded, striker-fired). Even if they did, it wouldn't fix the training issue.

 

[toivo]

I'm with the "drill, drill, drill" crowd. If this person is NEVER going to carry with one in the chamber, he or she should be drilled on racking the slide first thing after inserting a mag or presenting from the holster (or bench or wherever). Also, there's no reason to carry with the safety on if there is no round in the chamber. It's not redundant safety -- it's absolutely unnecessary safety, IMO. What does it prevent?

 

[2wheels]

I'm with the "drill, drill, drill" crowd. If this person is NEVER going to carry with one in the chamber, he or she should be drilled on racking the slide first thing after inserting a mag or presenting from the holster (or bench or wherever). Also, there's no reason to carry with the safety on if there is no round in the chamber. It's not redundant safety -- it's absolutely unnecessary safety, IMO. What does it prevent?

At the very least then, get them to keep that safety off and the hammer down over an unloaded chamber. If they're a visual learner it may help, even if only a little.

 

[Skribs]

Toivo, you don't have to convince me. I carry DAO or SFA pistols chamber loaded. The thought process of the individual in question is that if the chamber is accidentally loaded, then the safety is on. I'm not saying I agree, but that's the thought process.

I will agree that the redundancy is probably overcomplicating the issue. I think they do carry hammer down, which is supposed to be used as a psuedo-LCI, but the problem is that means the first reaction upon a perceived MF is to pull the hammer back. I partially think that starting off with revolvers is the culprit here (and possibly TV, because any time you see a 1911 in a TV show the shooter has to pull the hammer back...and Glocks you hear it), because that was the MOA for shooting a revolver in single action.

 

[2zulu1]

Perhaps the screen saver version may help, never a malfunction.

http://www.m1911.org/STI1911animation2.htm

 

[Skribs]

Maybe I'll try bringing up the carry method again. In the past, I'd just brought up the fact that it was extra steps that weren't needed, but if I bring it up as "probably helping with the confusion" then it would simplify things.

I don't think it would necessarily fix the problem (there might still be an extra trigger pull before racking) but if there is no external hammer and no manual safety, then steps won't be added that don't need to be there.

One other reasoning that was used is that it is more steps to go before shooting someone, sort of to act as a barrier before taking a life. I haven't explained - and probably should - that drawing is only legally acceptable if lethal force is justified, so legally speaking there's no difference between drawing an empty gun and drawing ready to fire.

But, like I said, the problem is with awareness of the internal workings. At best, changing carry method would be a workaround that wouldn't enhance understanding of autoloader mechanics.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I think the issue is simply that everything happens beneath the surface, and this person is very visually oriented. Like I said, practice was going to be the suggestion, but I was wondering if there were any training aids. Formal instruction might not be a bad idea.

Ahhh! Understanding dawns! I can feel for this person, now!

Actually, few people aren't very visually oriented, whether they realize it or not. Some, like this person, very much visually oriented.

A good sit-down demonstrating the construction/operation/function of the guns (both revolver and semi-auto) will be most helpful for this person. This will help them build a 3-D image in his mind on how the semi-auto works, which I suspect is key to his understanding and operation.

Good luck! And let us know how this works out down the line!