How Will HR822 Affect NY?

[jamesbeat]

I've been reading as much as I can about HR822, but I'm still not 100% sure how this bill, if passed, will pertain to the state in which I live, NY.

Would it mean that any CCW permit holder from any state will be able to carry in NY as if they had an unrestricted NY pistol license?

If a NY resident had a licence with restrictions against carry (the vast majority) would these still apply?
ie, any permit holder can carry in NY except NY residents?

If the above is correct, what would likely happen in the future to redress the balance?

Assuming that NY doesn't want people carrying, what are they likely to do to sidestep the bill so that it still remains effectively impossible to carry?
Would they cancel all carry permits, or impose local restrictions like no carry within 40 miles of a school?

 

[Birch Knoll]

Would it mean that any CCW permit holder from any state will be able to carry in NY as if they had an unrestricted NY pistol license?

Yes.

If a NY resident had a licence with restrictions against carry (the vast majority) would these still apply? ie, any permit holder can carry in NY except NY residents?

Yes.

If the above is correct, what would likely happen in the future to redress the balance?

That would be up to the NY Legislature.

Assuming that NY doesn't want people carrying, what are they likely to do to sidestep the bill so that it still remains effectively impossible to carry?

I imagine they would challenge the law in court.

This is all contingent on HR822 actually becoming law, of course. I don't know how likely that is. The Senate is not going to be especially welcoming to this bill, and the current President doesn't seem like the sort of guy who would willingly sign it. It will take a particularly auspicious alignment of the stars and planets for HR822 to succeed.

 

[oneounceload]

It will take a particularly auspicious alignment of the stars and planets for HR822 to succeed.

Or it gets merged with some bill the President DOES care about (like health or similar) and it might have a chance

 

[jamesbeat]

Hmm, as I suspected then.
Well, some people successfully apply to have the restrictions on their licenses removed, so I guess the fact that out of state folks could already carry would lend weight to the argument.
Even if it doesn't benefit those of us in restrictive states directly, it looks as though it would be a step in the right direction.
Let's hope the stars are in alignment...

 

[ssgtusmc]

I agree with jamesbeat. Although the bill will probably make it through the House fairly easily, I can't imagine the Senate doing anything other than letting it die there. I suspect that after next year's election, there will be more pro-gun legislators and a (more) pro-gun president. If that happens, I can see such a bill being enacted in 2013.

On the other hand, my wife makes the point that her nursing license isn't necessarily recognized by other states. The only example I can think of where licenses issued in one state are honored elsewhere is driver's licenses.

Even if HR822 becomes law, it's possible that New York or some other state will get it overturned as a violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.

 

[Birch Knoll]

Even if HR822 becomes law, it's possible that New York or some other state will get it overturned as a violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.

Could be. But that puts the Governor and the AG of New York in the uncomfortable position of arguing in court that their citizens ought to have fewer rights. That might be fun to see.

 

[springfield30-06]

I've been reading as much as I can about HR822, but I'm still not 100% sure how this bill, if passed, will pertain to the state in which I live, NY.

Would it mean that any CCW permit holder from any state will be able to carry in NY as if they had an unrestricted NY pistol license?

If a NY resident had a licence with restrictions against carry (the vast majority) would these still apply?
ie, any permit holder can carry in NY except NY residents?

I was just thinking about the same question earlier today...

Even if HR822 becomes law, it's possible that New York or some other state will get it overturned as a violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.

I was also thinking about states rights... I would like HR822 to pass but was concerned about the states rights stuff myself. After thinking about it though, the 2nd Amendment is part of the US Constitution which covers the whole country, so in a way CCW should be 'federally regulated' if you will.

Now, I am not a proponent for more government interference in people's everyday life... but on the other hand I do not think that we even should need to have CCW permits in order to carry...

 

[oneounceload]

Even if HR822 becomes law, it's possible that New York or some other state will get it overturned as a violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.
Could be. But that puts the Governor and the AG of New York in the uncomfortable position of arguing in court that their citizens ought to have fewer rights. That might be fun to see.

I'd be surprised to see it get that far. They would just make the restrictions involved not worth it - after all, those restrictions would be for "the safety of their citizens"

 

[rich642z]

I am wondering how this is going to work with the 3 states that do not have a ccw permit system. I guess if they get stopped by local yocals,they have to show their drivers license and tell them their state does not have a permit system.

 

[toivo]

Keep in mind that the "restrictions" placed on NY permits, like the "target and hunting only" nonsense, are not written into the penal code, but are added at the discretion of the issuing judge. An out-of-state permit holder would have no such discretionary limitations.

NYS law recognizes only three classes of permit: premises, employment, or carry. It's either "at home," "on the job," or "everywhere." I believe the majority currently held are carry -- with some restrictions added by a judge. Out-of-staters should (I believe) fall under full-carry, without judicial restriction.

 

[jamesbeat]

I am wondering how this is going to work with the 3 states that do not have a ccw permit system. I guess if they get stopped by local yocals,they have to show their drivers license and tell them their state does not have a permit system.

The states with no carry will continue to be no carry; HR822 is about reciprocity.
If a state has CCW, then it must recognize permits from other states. If it doesn't allow carry, then it can continue to not recognize any permits.

The reason I asked the question above is because NY is something of an oddball.
NY does have carry permits, so if the bill is passed, it would have to recognize other state's permits too.
The reason it's an oddball is because, for the regular Joe, it's practically impossible to get an unrestricted permit in most counties, NY City being absolutely impossible except for the very rich.
The vast majority of 'carry' permits have restrictions placed on them by the issuing judge (when they aren't too busy beating their disabled daughters) and so only allow carry to and from a shooting range or while hunting.
HR822 would mess this up for them, because people from out of state wouldn't be bound by any restrictions.

 

[hermannr]

The restrictions on your NY carry are not legal or binding. The judge that issued the permit can (and they do) pull your permit for not abiding by the restrictions, but they can do nothing more. It is not a "crime" and carries no penality of law.

So, just because you have a "restricted" NY license, does not mean if you came to visit WA that you would still have a "restricted" license to carry...we have no such beast. On top of that to OC or CC when you are hunting or fishing (camping, horse back riding...recreation) you don't need a license anyway.

Look on the bright side for NY residences, they can travel without restriction to their ability to legally carry.

 

[Hypnogator]

How Will HR822 Affect NY?

It won't. It won't pass.

 

[jamesbeat]

Well, I don't even have a pistol permit yet, I'm still trying to find enough non-anti-gun friends to provide references and gather the enormous amount of cash needed to pay the fee without eating into my family grocery money before I can even apply.
I'm not too upset about it though, because I'm from England, where I couldn't own a handgun period.
Even NY seems like a shooter's paradise in comparison!

 

[Birch Knoll]

How sad for England.

 

[whalerman]

No offense intended Mr ttolhurst, but as a NYer I think that's exactly what NY elected officials bank on. They dole out limited rights and the people of our state have accepted the fact that it could be worse, so they shuffle off with their heads bowed thankful to their Masters. You know, stand up guys like Chuch Schumer and retrained folks like Sen Gillebrand, who while running for senator seemed have an appreciated for the Second Ammendment. Schumer talked her out of that way of thinking.

 

[Birch Knoll]

I think you misunderstand my meaning. I certainly don't mean we should be thankful that NY's laws aren't worse. I mean that it's sad for England, the source of our tradition of the right to bear arms, that it has sunk so low that even New York's pitiful laws look good by comparison.

 

[brickeyee]

But that puts the Governor and the AG of New York in the uncomfortable position of arguing in court that their citizens ought to have fewer rights.

They will argue that they do not want the yokels to carry in their safe city an increase the danger to new Yorkers.

And that Congress does not have the authority to compel them to recognize other states permits permits.

Can i get my PE license recognized nationwide?

 

[Birch Knoll]

And that Congress does not have the authority to compel them to recognize other states permits permits.

There's an excellent argument that they do, given the 2nd and 14th Amendments,

Can i get my PE license recognized nationwide?

You'll probably need a Constitutional amendment which guarantees the right to practice engineering.

 

[jamesbeat]

How sad for England.

I hate to say it, but I hate England.
I love its rich history, but I hate what it's become.

When my immigration application was accepted, I got a letter in the mail telling me so.
It's a standard letter that begins 'Welcome to the United States of America'.
It then goes on to explain that I am now officially protected by the Constitution.
I'm not ashamed to say that I got a lump in my throat when I read it.

 

[brickeyee]

There's an excellent argument that they do, given the 2nd and 14th Amendments,

No, there have been limits on the carrying of concealed firearms for a very long time.

Open carry is far more likely to be found acceptable.

 

[ultramag44]

We must remember that people get 'conditioned' by circumstances, laws and accepted customs and prices.

I'm Army retired. When stationed @ Ft Dix NJ, I learned almost no one got a CCW, though they were tecnically allowed.

When stationed @ FT Drum NY, I got a CCW! I thought NY was very open in its thinking.

My friends / inlaws in California have a 10 day waiting period and many state add-on fees to buy a gun. Most FFL dealers won't even ship a gun to California.

I'm retired in Texas, have a CCW, no gun buying restrictions or waiting periods. My buying time is about 10 minutes.

I can see how anyone from the UK would think the most-restrictive state in the US as being rather open!

 

[Birch Knoll]

No, there have been limits on the carrying of concealed firearms for a very long time.

The law is not static. The Second Acmendment was finally found to be an individual right only in in 2008, and found to apply to the States only in 2010. Whatever the status quo has been, Heller and McDonald have changed the landscape forever.

Open carry is far more likely to be found acceptable.

I doubt that very much. Concealed carry is available on a shall-issue, shall-issue-in-practice, or unrestricted basis in 41 states, by my count. That's a pretty high level of acceptance. Open carry makes people nervous; concealed carry is out of sight, out of mind.

 

[RinkRat]

From the first written vesting to what is being considered today has presumably changed, so which ever when ever you read it, and since there are several sights to go to I'd like to see the most current version.

It is my understanding that if this does pass it will allow anyone with a license, or permit to CCW will be allowed to CCW in any state but must do so while following the laws of the state they are CCW`ing in. Not those of the issuing state. Right now states can pick and chose which states license or permit they want to honor. So if passed that option would be gone. Kind of like a drivers license. If you have a drivers license you can drive in any state but must abide by that states driving laws which can vary from state to state. So say if you do have a CCW permit and go to say Illinois you still can not CCW there because of their local laws.

My permit is honored in about 28 states. Some states do not honor other states CCW`s because they do not honor theirs. Some honor all. Some honor none.

 

[hermannr]

The law is not static. The Second Acmendment was finally found to be an individual right only in in 2008, and found to apply to the States only in 2010. Whatever the status quo has been, Heller and McDonald have changed the landscape forever.



I doubt that very much. Concealed carry is available on a shall-issue, shall-issue-in-practice, or unrestricted basis in 41 states, by my count. That's a pretty high level of acceptance. Open carry makes people nervous; concealed carry is out of sight, out of mind.

Ttolhurst:

Once OC is accepted and not rejected, the 2A people will have won. It is the acceptance of the law abiding citizens right to bear arms that is needed, Hiding that arm like you are ashamed of it is not helping the cause. You are teaching no-one about the right to bear arms when you hide your carry like a criminal.

When average unarmed Jane and Joe Citizen walk down the street and pay no more attention to a proper OC than they do to a LEO walking down the street, then we will have true acceptance. They will finally understand that a law abiding citizen has nothing to hide.

I have just as much problem with "must OC" as I do "Must cover". Neither refects freedom or right of carry. I OC because it is comfortable, I dress for the weather, not my carry. I OC to show and teach others that we do have the right to carry as we please in WA state, and most of the US. I OC to get people used to that fact.

Does doing so make some people uncomfortable? Yes it does, but there is no constitutional "right" to be comfortable, there is a right to carry...WA Article 1 Section 24 and US 2A. It is someyhing like, if you see a bi-racial couple walking down the street. Does that make some people uncomfortable? 50 years ago you might even go to jail for that in some parts of the US. However, in the last 50+ years it has become more common, and more acceptable??? No? Same for OC, we need that level of acceptance to OC so that we are not constantly fighting the antis.

We have one SIL that is anti. Does he get uncomfortable around me...D$$ right. Does he say anything any more. Nope, I showed him the law, and how it is completely legal to OC and CC for our own SD in our state...

Now we just have to progress to the point where he finally realizes that the pistol is not going to jump out of that holster and shoot someone on it's own, and we'll be good.

Oh, I must add a comment to your first comment. Wrong. The Constitution has always ment what it says. It is not a "working document" That is why it is difficult to change. What happened with Hellier and McDonald was the courts officially said, yep that is what it says. It did not change anything about the constitution, it only changed what some people thought the constitution said, V what it actually has said all along. Even with Hellier and McDonald there are some that still will not accept what the court has stated because they don't like it...sorry for them.