How would you handle this?

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Ed Ames

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You and a friend are out drinking at a bar and meet a trusted friend.

Trusted friend introduces you to two other people, who seem to be trustworthy as well.

At closing time the five of you decide to go back to your house to hang out in your garage. You have a foosball table and of course beer back home. After a while the friend you met at the bar leaves, so it is you, your friend, and the two new acquaintances. Oh, and your wife is in the house as well.

After a while the new acquaintances get irate, pull out guns, and order you onto the ground and start screaming orders at you. Among other things they yell that they want to see your ID.

What do you do?

I took the above scenario from a local news report... it really happened. The two attackers are being charged with "deadly conduct".

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/011008dnmetsteveholy.6f6e665.html
 
I would make those guys leave with the friend that I knew, before any of this happend!!!!:uhoh: ummm just a thought....but why in the world would they want your ID?
 
Before I even read the article I suspected undercover cops. Looks like I was right on that one. Administrative leave, sheesh, they should be fired and face the same charges you and I would for doing the same thing. We all know that won't happen, but we can dream.
 
At closing time the five of you decide to go back to your house to hang out in your garage.
I don't bring guys I've just met over to my house ever, even if a trusted friend vouched for them.
Especially if my wife was home!

It just wouldn't happen.
 
At closing time the five of you decide to go back to your house to hang out in your garage.
That's where it would not happen for me. I have no reason to bring four grown men to my home at midnight to play foosball and drink beer in my garage.
 
Armed invaders? With my wife in the house? I shoot them. Yes I may die. So be it.
 
... wouldn't have brought them back home in the first place, however, if I had, it would be at about this point they would start noticing the laser (my wife and two sons) would be painting their foreheads with about now.

Gotta love a woman that can shoot!
 
I would have shot them too unless they immediately identified themselves as police officers. You can not be held liable for shooting a cop or resisting arrest if the cop doesn't identify himself as being a LEO.
 
I don't bring guys I've just met over to my house ever, even if a trusted friend vouched for them.

I think most of us have some types of people we have a predisposition to trust. That predisposition can override normal caution. Who you are predisposed to trust will vary depending on your background. Some people will trust church members, others might trust well known media personalities, still others might let their guards down for sports figures. The trust may be rational or not but it's very human. Everyone has a circle of people they trust and not all of the associations in that web of trust should be there. That's the scenario here and the reason I used the term "Trusted". It's part of the scenario... if you trust pastors then you meet your pastor and he introduces you to two visiting pastors from affiliated churches. People not known to you but in a "trusted" group.

Or is there nobody you categorically trust?

Oh, and you've been drinking in a bar which, unless you are in California or similar, usually means "no carry". So if you want to be able to respond with force you've got to arm yourself when you get home.
 
Jaenak...

Since you say "unless they identified themselves as police officers" I'll assume you trust police officers. So for you the scenario is a little more specific: The reason you trust the "trusted friend" who made the introduction is that you know him to be a police officer. He introduced the other two as off duty police officers. The reason you trusted them enough to bring them home is that you knew them to be police officers from the start and deep down inside you think "police officer" means "good guy".

Does that change your handling of the situation?
 
I will bite on this one, Ed. If I knew they were cops? No way in hell would I shoot. Odds are good you will survive unless they are truly "rouge cops."
After it was all over I would wreak legal havoc on them, and the "trusted" friend would be policing a garbage dump in Arctic Village.
 
As others have said I would not have been bringing them home in the first place. These two Dumb azzes belong in jail for what they did.
 
They're looking to charge them with a misdemeanor? You can bet that if two average citizens acted that way towards two police officers, they'd be charged with more than a misdemeanor.

Now, in this story, Mr. Holy was ordered to go upstairs and get his ID by these suddenly psychotic policemen. When he was up there, he might have had an opportunity to arm himself (and perhaps... I don't know, lock himself and his wife in their bedroom while they remained on the phone with 911?)

That's a really difficult situation. If you're faced with irrationally belligerent (drunk?) police officers who are pointing guns in your face -- at what point do you decide to resist? That could be a real damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation.
 
The real problem here is the people you call to get rid of the gun wielding lunatics in your house work with the gun wielding lunatics. All comments by Orwell aside, maybe one of the LEOs on the board has an idea how an average citizen can handle a rogue officer?

Something a little more helpful than wait until after Kristallnacht to file a complaint would be greatly appreciated.
 
I believe the officers in question should also be charged for violating Texas' 51% rule, more than likely if it was a bar it is off limits to CCW. Just because they are LEO they have to follow the same rules as us mere mortals while off duty.

Also, if they were drunk when they left in a vehicle that's another count for drunk driving as well.

Sounds like real winners there :rolleyes:

Both of them should be happy they are still alive, acting on their own accord using deadly force without warrant would get you killed in most places. It sure as hell would in my house!
 
I probably wouldn't have people over my house in a situation such as that... Also, I tend to have an eye for spotting if people are carrying or not...

Indeed, on the "classroom" day of my concealed carry class, the instructor asked us (at the end of class) if he was carrying and if so, where was he carrying... He had a vest on over his shirt, so it made it sort of hard...

I told him that I'd seen where he was carrying since the beginning of class, that he had a small 1911 style pistol on his right side, in a belt holster. I was the only person to figure out both that he WAS carrying and WHAT he was carrying. One other person figured out he was carrying but that was it... Two people out of a class of about twenty were able to tell he was carrying, the others were not...

However, he had a surprise for me, since he had a revolver in an ankle holster... Something I had not expected and hadn't been looking for...

Still, I tend to have an eye for who I think is carrying, where they might be carrying, and then I try to guess as to what sort of gun it might be. I run through scenarios in my mind about these sorts of things, be they pertaining to good guys carrying or bad guys... As far as the good guys go, I figure "if something happens, who is a good guy that will intervene, and where should I be to make sure I am out of their line of fire..." and with the potential bad guys I am thinking, "if they pull out a gun to start shooting, or to try a robbery, where should I move to, such that I can have time to draw and squeeze off enough shots to stop them, without risking hitting somebody else if I miss..." I am often running these sort of scenarios through my head...

The main thing I do as far as bad guys are concerned, I watch how people act, if they are inappropriately dressed for the weather (heavy coat when it is not cold out), sunglasses in the evening, a combination of a heavy coat, sunglasses, and a hat that obscures all of their hair, etc... I try to see if people look nervous, gittery, if they keep fiddling with their hands, if they are glancing around nervously to see who is looking at them, if they are trying to size up an area and see where security cameras are, if they are constantly moving a hand to the same part of their coat or to a portion/spot of their clothing or particularly the waist-band.

If somebody is going to rob a place by storming into it with their gun drawn, screaming "robbery" then there is not much you can watch for if you're inside, except for just keeping an eye on the door so you can see them as they come in, and begin to react... However, if they are going to wait in line or they are still debating inside their mind, whether or not to pull the gun and begin a robbery, once they are inside the building/bank/corner store/etc, there are consistent psychological and physiological indicators (red-flags if you will) that you can watch for.



To get back to the point though, I wouldn't allow somebody into my house under such circumstances, and if by some fluke I did, I am always armed (at home), and the other occupants of my house are always armed...

If they got the drop on me, I would probably have complied, and the second their attention was diverted, I'd have sprung into action and opened fire, while counting on the other occupant/s of my house to use their weapons and join in as soon as they realized what was going on and could safely make entry into the room in question. And yes, I and the other occupant/s in my house have rehearsed proper room entry, room clearance, slicing the pie, fatal funnel, Close Quarters Combat techniques and tactics, etc...
 
What do you do?
I don't invite strangers home from bars.

Oh, and you've been drinking in a bar which, unless you are in California or similar, usually means "no carry". So if you want to be able to respond with force you've got to arm yourself when you get home.
But you are in Texas, Ed, and the incident happened in Texas. You can't carry in the bar, but you may certainly carry in your vehicle. You very well could have armed yourself as soon as you got in your car after leaving the bar.


Before I even read the article I suspected undercover cops. Looks like I was right on that one.

...only if "off-duty" means "under cover."
 
Gotta go with rusty hammer here. Wouldn't bring them home and wife would have them covered when the commotion started. Bad situation though. Also, I am not much of a drinker even if I set out to get drunk I usually just get a little buzz on and that ends up being enough for me. I think the last time I was drunk was well over six years ago.
 
Pretty consistent responses that fit into a few basic camps:
1) Limit risk exposure by avoiding social contact. (Don't go to the bar.)
and/or
2) Limit risk exposure by avoiding excessive immediate trust. (Don't take people home with you.)
or
3. Respond to the situations as, and after, they come up. (Shoot them/have your wife shoot them/whatever.)

I'm not sure about any of those answers as I'll explain in a bit. But, first....

But you are in Texas, Ed, and the incident happened
in Texas.

Good point. The incident which inspired this thread happened in TX but there is no rule saying the next incident will. It happened to involve LEOs but, again, may not next time.

I'll give you an example of how it may go down next time:

You go to church. After services you talk to one of the clergy and invite him/her over for dinner with your family. (S)he asks if it's OK to bring along two teenagers who have been very active in volunteering for the church/are great kids/whatever. (S)he calls them over and introduces you and they seem to be good kids. Everyone has a fantastic dinner and the kids are super polite. After a while the clergy person you invited over says (s)he must leave and the two teens ask, "Can we finish our game of foosball? We can walk home after." You think, "gee, what good kids those are!" and say yes.

In both cases the key events were:
1) You went to a place of social gathering (church/bar)
2) You encountered a trusted individual (clergy/LEO friend)
3) Trusted individual introduced you to two others (volunteers/other LEOs), describing them as trustworthy.
4) You allow/encourage the group to enter your home for social/recreational purposes
5) The individual best known to you (clergy/LEO friend) leaves and you allow the new acquaintances to stay.

At that point, the choice of outcomes is largely in the guest's hands. If they really were trustworthy they'll go home and you may end up with new friends and deeper ties to the community. If they were somewhat trustworthy they may go home as friends but start telling people "the guy at <your address> has a really nice house full of great stuff!" increasing your chances of being burglarized. If they are somewhat untrustworthy you may find you've "misplaced" something or the pharmacy shorted you one or two pills but never really track down an exact cause. If they are very untrustworthy they may use your blood in their heathen rituals.

Or, more accurately, they control whether they will TRY to do those things. If you've got a "clean" part of your house for entertaining guests without exposing them to anything too interesting or desirable you can limit the "somewhat" outcomes (nothing to talk about/nothing to steal) without preventing the very positive or very negative. If you carry discrete protection while hosting you can at least respond to the very negative without preventing the very positive. Being the host gives you a lot of control but the choice to initiate is still theirs.

That's why I'm not entirely sure about the first two solutions (avoid social contact/avoid trust). I think the costs are high and the risks can usually be minimized in other ways. Bringing people to your place actually gives you some advantages from a security standpoint. Your home is generally a LOT safer than a park, wandering the streets, or going to someone else's house.

Which brings up the question, Was the guy who inspired this thread thinking security? I suspect he was. Not only the choice of friends, but he appears to have been using a classic "clean" environment for hosting. Garage game rooms are easy clean hosting evironments because you should do most of the work anyway. If your garage opens directly onto a public street you should be able to quickly hide/secure anything too desirable to prevent drive-by casing and smash-n-grabs. Once you've done that it's easy to take the extra steps to make it really clean and use it as a "guy's less-trusted guest hosting environment". I suspect that's why the foosball table was there.

One of the things I've taken from this is the importance of video surveillance of hosting/clean areas of your home. If the victim in the story had a couple of video cameras in his garage he would be able to show exactly what happened. For all I know he did have video cameras and that's why the incident was taken as seriously as it was. Otherwise it would've been word against word.

Beyond that I'm not sure. In this case the guy lived. His attackers are being punished. He didn't lose anything except some innocence... so the response was fitting. In other scenarios he could have lost a lot more and a more forceful response would've been called for in my book.
 
At closing time the five of you decide to go back to your house to hang out in your garage
.

What do you do?

As has already been pointed out.... not that. /\ That is pretty dumb. Now I have heard that young men will meet women at a bar and take them back to their residence and sometimes young ladies will do the same. This is also pretty dumb, but something that happens all the time none the less. I am not young, and am married and am several countries aways from the nearest bar so I don't know about all that.... but if:

After a while the new acquaintances get irate, pull out guns, and order you onto the ground and start screaming orders at you. Among other things they yell that they want to see your ID.

I get on the ground and carefully pull out ID. Not worth getting killed over by some likely crazy person. I assume that is what the people did as well, which why the bad guys were not charged with murder or assault.

Now another day I might make a play for the gun if the circumstances were right, but without more information it is impossible to say. The situation would have to be near perfect for me to make such a risky move. But reaching... when you are dealing with a paranoid sounds like a good way to get shot. There are few people alive who can draw and shoot faster than the average guy can shoot, and I am not one of them.
 
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