Hunting vs defense. Cumulative damage?

[Joshua M. Smith]

That's the angle I was asking, but didn't put it into words right. Let's assume caliber X (the more powerful one) can penetrate a deadly animal's skull, but caliber Y cannot. Caliber Y can do some damage, but not that. Would enough shots from it suffice though?

I guess another way of putting it is, if you used birdshot instead of buckshot to defend yourself against a 2-legged critter...by most advice, the birdshot isn't sufficient. But several shots from that shotgun would certainly ruin that guy's day.

I mean, eventually, given enough time and ammo.

But then, an infinite number of monkeys working at an infinite number of typewriters for an undermined time would eventually reproduce all the great literary works known to man.

We have neither infinite ammo nor more than a few seconds in which to expend it, in your scenario.

Edit: In other words, choose your rifle and roll the dice. Nobody can tell you how fast a dangerous animal will stop for a given load in any given scenario. All we can do is to raise the odds a few percentage points by choosing heavier calibers. You could choose a .22 for bear defense. As noted, it's been done. I personally wouldn't want to count on it, but that's me.

On the other hand, most of the rifles listed are more powerful than many handguns routinely carried for big critter defense. I'd choose a hardcast .30-30 for a charging grizzly over a whitetail.44 magnum load. While still not ideal, it would be better.

Edit 2: If I were going into the woods with the express purpose of tangling with one of the big bears, I'd probably go with a BAR semi in .458 Win Mag and mount a fast optic of some sort. Might even mount a bayonet.

But, that might be a bit excessive were I just going on a hike where I might encounter a grizzly.

 

[WisBorn]

Hunting vs defense. Cumulative damage?

Many of the threads on the forum confuse wilderness defense and hunting in my opinion.
I have a love for hiking, it is my favorite hobby hands down! I also enjoy hunting and shooting.

The gun I carry for hunting, is not the same gun that I carry for hiking. Last week I carried my Smith and Wesson 69 44mag while deer hunting. I would use it for black bears also. I had it loaded with Underwood 240gr JHP.
Later this week I will be heading to the Smoky Mountains. My carry will be my XDM compact 45acp loaded with Underwood 255gr +p hardcast while hiking.
I can shoot the 44mag accurately, but not quickly. I can shoot the 45acp quickly with decent accuracy.

I'm giving up energy for more shots on target. In addition the 45acp is a better choice for my bigger threat. 2 legged crackheads...

Now granted I would prefer carrying a 300mag or larger for hunting grizzle bears, with premium bonded or partition bullet. While hunting muledeer in grizzle bear country I would use my 7rm.
I'm planning on going to Yellowstone next fall to go hiking. I will have one of my 10mm's and my pocket cannon Taurus 415 41mag.

Why be a certified THR gun nut if you don't pick different guns/cartridges for different tasks

 

[Double Naught Spy]

That's the angle I was asking, but didn't put it into words right. Let's assume caliber X (the more powerful one) can penetrate a deadly animal's skull, but caliber Y cannot. Caliber Y can do some damage, but not that. Would enough shots from it suffice though? (and I don't mean just head shots, that's an example)

We know that .22 long and .22 long rifle will penetrate the skulls of deer, wolf, elk, mountain lion, coyote wolf, boar, grizzly and probably moose as well, at least for North America. How small are you planning on carrying?

To answer your question, which is still way oversimplified in terms of application for the real world, but yes, enough shots from an ineffective but penetrating caliber will eventually stop and/or kill your aggressor. Your aggressor could die if you stabbed him/her enough times with an insulin needle, but good luck getting them to hold still for that....which is the problem with expectation of needing to fire multiple shots - time. Are you going to be able to put enough rounds on target to effect a stop before the bear ruin's YOUR day.

I guess another way of putting it is, if you used birdshot instead of buckshot to defend yourself against a 2-legged critter...by most advice, the birdshot isn't sufficient. But several shots from that shotgun would certainly ruin that guy's day.

Self defense isn't about ruining the other guy's day. It is about keeping the other guy from ruining your day, or in the context of this thread, keeping a grizzly from ruining your day.

In my years of ready through bear attacks, if the bear makes contact with you, you have about a 99.5% chance of ending up in the ER and very few of those are released the same day. That is because most such contacts involve biting or swatting where the clawing opens up the tissue. Lots of those injuries are to the arms, head, and in particular, the face. In other words, if a bear makes contact with you, your day will likely be ruined. The only question after that is whether or not your life is ruined.

 

[d2wing]

Wild Hickock had that issue the first time he tried shooting a grizzly bear with his .36 cal. blackpowder Navy revolver. It didn't penetrate the skull. Yes the bullet has to have enough energy and solid enough construction to penetrate to where it needs to. Opinions vary on just what that is and how much margin is needed. A .22 LR rimfire has worked but not my choice. Just about any caliber can fail if not used properly.
As far as preparing, I was trained in the Army on the quick kill technique. Being able to calmly and quickly do what you need to do can be trained. However how you react to danger is not that predictable to me until tested under fire. I have seen trained and seemingly ok guys panic under fire. That's why seasoned troops are way better. I can't help you there.
I don't agree with that chart for my own use, but I can see it being useful as a general guide for the novice hunter. As far as repeated shot helping, why did the first shot fail. Better to have that option than not.

 

[Show Me]

That's the angle I was asking, but didn't put it into words right. Let's assume caliber X (the more powerful one) can penetrate a deadly animal's skull, but caliber Y cannot. Caliber Y can do some damage, but not that. Would enough shots from it suffice though? (and I don't mean just head shots, that's an example)

I guess another way of putting it is, if you used birdshot instead of buckshot to defend yourself against a 2-legged critter...by most advice, the birdshot isn't sufficient. But several shots from that shotgun would certainly ruin that guy's day.

Is that how turkey hunters kill each other. And that's back when #5 was common

 

[WisBorn]

I was watching YouTube videos this morning and one of my favorite Writers/YouTube folks posted this video on Rifles for Africa (4 years ago).

Best Cartridges for African Hunting

Gun writers Richard Mann and Ron Spomer discuss what they've learned about cartridge performance during two dozen safaris for everything from dik dik to Cape...

youtu.be

I like Ron! Can't understand why he doesn't like 308win
Probably for the same reason I don't like 270win

 

[dobedo]

The only difference between hunting and defense is the animals do not shoot back.

 

[Anchorite]

Hunting vs defense. Cumulative damage?

Many of the threads on the forum confuse wilderness defense and hunting in my opinion.
I have a love for hiking, it is my favorite hobby hands down! I also enjoy hunting and shooting.

The gun I carry for hunting, is not the same gun that I carry for hiking. Last week I carried my Smith and Wesson 69 44mag while deer hunting. I would use it for black bears also. I had it loaded with Underwood 240gr JHP.
Later this week I will be heading to the Smoky Mountains. My carry will be my XDM compact 45acp loaded with Underwood 255gr +p hardcast while hiking.
I can shoot the 44mag accurately, but not quickly. I can shoot the 45acp quickly with decent accuracy.

I'm giving up energy for more shots on target. In addition the 45acp is a better choice for my bigger threat. 2 legged crackheads...

Now granted I would prefer carrying a 300mag or larger for hunting grizzle bears, with premium bonded or partition bullet. While hunting muledeer in grizzle bear country I would use my 7rm.
I'm planning on going to Yellowstone next fall to go hiking. I will have one of my 10mm's and my pocket cannon Taurus 415 41mag.

Why be a certified THR gun nut if you don't pick different guns/cartridges for different tasks

Well thought out and well stated, as usual.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

It got that reputation because Remington loaded it with a 44 magnum revolver bullet for many decades, which is downright negligent. With a proper load such as the 320 grain hard cast bullet at 2200 fps that I shoot, it’s a legitimate dangerous game cartridge.

Yes, is it not a "ballistic twin" to the 405 winchester? Teddy's Lion rifle?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

My personal opinion is that single shot guns are dumb.

Then I win the prize. I often hunt, trek, hike, and play with maps and compass in a grizzly recovery area (Harvey Creek grizzly recovery area, GMU113, North Eastern corner of Washington state) with a .62" flintlock. Do you want to live forever??

 

[CraigC]

I don't know, the 10mm fanbois bank on cumulative damage and magazine capacity. Makes about as much sense.

If the .444 is a poor penetrator, you're using the wrong bullet. It would get this solid copper Lehigh well over 2300fps and nothing would be safe.

 

[someguy2800]

Yes, is it not a "ballistic twin" to the 405 winchester? Teddy's Lion rifle?

Wikipedia says the original load was a 300 grain at 2200. 444 marlin load data usually tops out at 2000 or 2100 or so for a 300, so a touch less velocity but a touch more frontal area. Mine is in a single shot so I load it warmer and longer OAL length than lever action loads. I get 2200 with a 320 grain cast.

 

[Savage30L]

If you want to actually "Stop" a Bear, use a 12 gauge. A slug will do it at 50 yards, a shot of #2 from 5 feet will do the same. Ive seen both.

I've never hunted dangerous game, only deer....but one observation I can make, from killing lots of them with nearly every legal weapon, is this: poke a big entrance wound. A slug is a great choice for close range. So is buckshot. My favorite load is a 3" Magnum, 12-gauge with #1 buck. One shot pokes 24 .30-caliber holes in the target, if the shooter is close enough that the pellets haven't spread way out. That's a lot of trauma in a fraction of a second.

 

[jmorris]

According to conventional wisdom, a single shot won't stop it.

Conventional wisdom is generally accepted theory or belief and obviously the arrived upon assumption can be wrong.

Too many examples to list, bloodletting was a good example for 3000 years or so.

 

[MEHavey]

Imagine a scenario where you have a semi-auto .308 battle rifle, (AR-10, SCAR, M1A, etc) and a grizzly is charging you. According to conventional wisdom, a single shot won't stop it. But would two? Three?

Straightforward Answer:
Like any self-defense situation, you continue shooting until the threat goes down.
Whatever the number happens to become.
Whatever weapon you have in your hands.
Whatever locations you happen to hit.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9D64GKHhBw
(but the right location -- first or last -- always helps)

.

 

[CraigC]

Wikipedia says the original load was a 300 grain at 2200. 444 marlin load data usually tops out at 2000 or 2100 or so for a 300, so a touch less velocity but a touch more frontal area. Mine is in a single shot so I load it warmer and longer OAL length than lever action loads. I get 2200 with a 320 grain cast.

A 330gr would be equivalent to the .405's 300gr. According to my notes, Marshall Stanton was getting 2200fps out of the Beartooth 355gr out of an unmodified 1-20" twist Marlin .444. Modifying it to feed longer, heavier bullets, it was 2150fps with their 405gr. Pretty impressive results and one that actually beats heavy loads in the .45-70 for SD and velocity.

 

[someguy2800]

A 330gr would be equivalent to the .405's 300gr. According to my notes, Marshall Stanton was getting 2200fps out of the Beartooth 355gr out of an unmodified 1-20" twist Marlin .444. Modifying it to feed longer, heavier bullets, it was 2150fps with their 405gr. Pretty impressive results and one that actually beats heavy loads in the .45-70 for SD and velocity.

A 405 at 2150 sounds painful lol. I could certainly keep going above my load as pressure is very mild but my shoulder is happy where it is!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I don't know, the 10mm fanbois bank on cumulative damage and magazine capacity. Makes about as much sense.

I too have not been charged by a Grizzly. In fact, I've had two Grizzly encounters, and both times they ran off like I was the stinky-est, ugliest, thing on earth. Perhaps I am! Anyhow, spending a lot of time in the grizzly country, I study every grizzly encounter I possibly can, and what I believe, think, or have come to the conclusion of is that it happens very fast, so fast that one is most often going to be lucky to get off one shot. So cumulative damage, and repeat shots don't hold much promise or appeal to my mind.

I also believe that when you only have one shot, you are more likely to make that count. That has proven true for me anyhow, in hunting situations. Of course the best of both worlds is to shoot a repeater as a single shot, and having more shots if the situation allows it, as opposed to just pulling the trigger as fast as you can while in panic mode. Methinks one's ability to be cool under pressure outweighs the caliber of the weapon, or how many cartridges it holds. ?

Taking a cigar break in grizzly country, with a Trapdoor Springfield carbine. !!! In .45-70 I trust.

IMO, a double barrel 12 gauge loaded with .690" round balls, over a boatload of Swiss black powder, could be the best grizz repellent.

 

[CraigC]

A 405 at 2150 sounds painful lol. I could certainly keep going above my load as pressure is very mild but my shoulder is happy where it is!

It would wake you up! The .405 in the 1895 is not bad, even with a steel buttplate.

 

[CraigC]

I too have not been charged by a Grizzly. In fact, I've had two Grizzly encounters, and both times they ran off like I was the stinky-est, ugliest, thing on earth. Perhaps I am! Anyhow, spending a lot of time in the grizzly country, I study every grizzly encounter I possibly can, and what I believe, think, or have come to the conclusion of is that it happens very fast, so fast that one is most often going to be lucky to get off one shot. So cumulative damage, and repeat shots don't hold much promise or appeal to my mind.

I also believe that when you only have one shot, you are more likely to make that count. That has proven true for me anyhow, in hunting situations. Of course the best of both worlds is to shoot a repeater as a single shot, and having more shots if the situation allows it, as opposed to just pulling the trigger as fast as you can while in panic mode. Methinks one's ability to be cool under pressure outweighs the caliber of the weapon, or how many cartridges it holds. ?
View attachment 1181727
Taking a cigar break in grizzly country, with a Trapdoor Springfield carbine. !!! In .45-70 I trust.
View attachment 1181728
IMO, a double barrel 12 gauge loaded with .690" round balls, over a boatload of Swiss black powder, could be the best grizz repellent.

You had me at "cigar break".

I definitely shooter better under pressure than when relaxed. Definitely came into play on our water buffalo excursions. Funny I had a guy last week call it a farm animal. Well, two months after I shot my two, somebody got mauled by one of them harmless farm animals. Water buffalo are loners and territorial and are actually more prone to charge than Cape buffalo. This reddish bull harassed us the whole time I stalked mine. We kept trees between us. He's the reason I had to shoot both of mine on the trot.

This one chased us out because nobody had the money to shoot it.

 

[someguy2800]

I too have not been charged by a Grizzly. In fact, I've had two Grizzly encounters, and both times they ran off like I was the stinky-est, ugliest, thing on earth. Perhaps I am! Anyhow, spending a lot of time in the grizzly country, I study every grizzly encounter I possibly can, and what I believe, think, or have come to the conclusion of is that it happens very fast, so fast that one is most often going to be lucky to get off one shot. So cumulative damage, and repeat shots don't hold much promise or appeal to my mind.

I also believe that when you only have one shot, you are more likely to make that count. That has proven true for me anyhow, in hunting situations. Of course the best of both worlds is to shoot a repeater as a single shot, and having more shots if the situation allows it, as opposed to just pulling the trigger as fast as you can while in panic mode. Methinks one's ability to be cool under pressure outweighs the caliber of the weapon, or how many cartridges it holds. ?
View attachment 1181727
Taking a cigar break in grizzly country, with a Trapdoor Springfield carbine. !!! In .45-70 I trust.
View attachment 1181728
IMO, a double barrel 12 gauge loaded with .690" round balls, over a boatload of Swiss black powder, could be the best grizz repellent.

The only bear I've ever killed was with the above mentioned 444 single shot. The first shot did him in, but I plugged him again just to be sure. That was the fastest reload you've ever seen!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The only bear I've ever killed was with the above mentioned 444 single shot. The first shot did him in, but I plugged him again just to be sure. That was the fastest reload you've ever seen!

My bear skull is still in the freezer. !!!! But, my Cougar skull turned out nice. Nice job on yours.

 

[d2wing]

Then I win the prize. I often hunt, trek, hike, and play with maps and compass in a grizzly recovery area (Harvey Creek grizzly recovery area, GMU113, North Eastern corner of Washington state) with a .62" flintlock. Do you want to live forever??
View attachment 1181677

Yeah, I guess I don't have the temperament for a Muzzle loader. And I apologize for my comment.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Yeah, I guess I don't have the temperament for a Muzzle loader. And I apologize for my comment.

Oh no! No apology necessary! I kind of got a kick out of it, and muzzle loaders, especially flintlocks, are not for everyone. Neither are single shots. From a logical perspective, they certainly are not the best choice. But either is riding a motorcycle, which I've done all me life.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The first shot did him in, but I plugged him again just to be sure.

Did the same with a single shot .30-30, when I got my cougar. It pretty much reloaded it's self, or so it seemed. It was next to some tall ferns, and I sure didn't want it to jump up and get into them.