Hypocrite

[Hugger-4641]

Ever go against your own advice?
Well, I've advised many people not to buy a scope that has Moa turrets and Mil reticle, or vice versa. I probably will continue to give that advice, but I intentionally bought a new FFP scope with Moa turrets and Mil recticle.
So here's my reasoning:
The rifle I'm putting it on will be mostly used for hunting, most of which is usually 300yds or less. At these distances, for hunting purposes, there's not enough difference between a 1/10 mil and 1/4 moa to matter.
When you get out to 600yds, it's still close enough to not really matter much. 1/10 mill is 2.16", 1/4 Moa is 1.57" .
But for long range competition shooting, which I'm inching towards, the difference is enough to matter. So I basically decided to get this scope to force myself to get proficient at doing the conversion in my head, while still being usefulfor hunting.
I know there are conversion calculators that will do this for me, but I don't like relying on such things. I'm a "still do long division on paper" kind of guy, so I'm making myself learn this the hard way.
Any thoughts on my insanity, or am I the only one who thinks like this?

 

[Legionnaire]

I'll be interested to hear how it works for you. I have some Mil/Mil scopes and some MOA/MOA scopes. I'm still getting used to moving back and forth between them. I think Mil/MOA would drive me nuts.

 

[Chuck R.]

I had one once.....then I had it converted to MIL-MIL.

It's not terrible, unless you want to twist knobs AND do holdovers using the reticle. IF you zero it, then leave it alone using your reticle to do your holdovers, it's doable. Trying to use both will drive anyone insane.

 

[TimRB]

But for long range competition shooting, which I'm inching towards, the difference is enough to matter.

For any kind of competition, I think you should completely ignore your reticle (presuming it's one of the kind that has marks for various ranges) and make all adjustments, elevation and windage, with the turrets. Only use the part of the reticle that shows center (or maybe some other part, but always use the same one). Your fellow competitors will be talking minutes, so doing some sort of mil/minute conversion, in your head or otherwise, will be a waste of effort.

Tim

 

[jmr40]

I've been known to change my mind. If someone were to go back and look at some of my posts here in the 1st few years, I'm sure they'd find conflicting advice/information between then, and now on certain topics. Everyone has their opinions, but if you listen to others and try something new you may just find that you were wrong.

 

[LoonWulf]

I've been known to change my mind. If someone were to go back and look at some of my posts here in the 1st few years, I'm sure they'd find conflicting advice/information between then, and now on certain topics. Everyone has their opinions, but if you listen to others and try something new you may just find that you were wrong.

Yep, ive had my position reversed by experience or other folks a few times lol.

Mil/moa tho ...... pretty sure im gonna stick with "thats dumb"

 

[Hugger-4641]

Thanks for the replies! I got a really good deal on it, but my BIL is already trying to talk me out of it. I forgot to mention it's a used, but practically new Vortex Viper PA 6.5-20x50.
Who knows, I may give in and let my BIL have it because I've had an Athlon Helos BTR 4-20x50 on order that just arrived at my LGS. I suspect the glass is going to be better on the Viper, but we'll see.

 

[Varminterror]

Nope - I won’t be adopting this philosophy.

I grew up shooting mil-dot reticles with 1/4 or 1/8 IPHY or MOA turrets, still have at least four scopes left over with the same affliction. I do the math in their respective units with conversions between, and never negate the value of the difference between them.

Sure, the difference in ONE click isn’t terribly influential, but even at 300 yards with a flat shooting rifle, the difference matters… 600 yards, obviously even more…

If I play in mils, 300yrds is 1.4 mils, 14 clicks gets me there. In MOA, 4.7 MOA, that’s 19 clicks… if I dial 14 clicks on a MOA based optic, using mils instead of MOA, I’ll short myself 1.25MOA, sending my bullet almost 4” under the target…

At 600 yards, the correction is 4.6mils, or 15.7moa, so 46 clicks in 0.1mil versus 63 clicks in .25moa… so again, if I dial the mil count instead of the MOA, I’ll short myself by 17 clicks, and my bullets will fall short on target by 27” - TWENTY SEVEN INCHES - at only 600 yards.



It’s possible to manage the math pretty easily. 3.44 on top or bottom gets you where you need to go… but don’t play silly games trying to say n x .36”/100yrds approximates n x .262”/100yrds. I even use a mixed example of one of my 22LR’s which had a Mil-dot reticle paired with a 1/8 IPHY turret shooting 325 yards - where the turret runs out of room and the shooter has to dial AND hold to reach the target, including use of an SFP magnification factor - as a real world math problem for long range precision students. It’s just math, and about 3rd grade math at that. But approximating parity between the two is false.

 

[jmorris]

Ever go against your own advice?

My advice isn’t always the same, so yeah, I have given advice to others I don’t follow myself. Sometimes out of necessity sometimes to learn something new, I try things I am not accustomed to. I can drive an automatic or manual and shoot with both MIL and MOA. My MOA optics vastly outnumber my Mil ones though. If you are someone that would be flustered learning another unit of measure, just stick with the one you know the best.

I guess my advice is to try both and use what you like, that’s what I do…using both.

 

[Varminterror]

For any kind of competition, I think you should completely ignore your reticle (presuming it's one of the kind that has marks for various ranges) and make all adjustments, elevation and windage, with the turrets. Only use the part of the reticle that shows center (or maybe some other part, but always use the same one). Your fellow competitors will be talking minutes, so doing some sort of mil/minute conversion, in your head or otherwise, will be a waste of effort.

Tim

If Precision Rifle Competition is among “any kind of competition,” then the above advice is not applicable. PR competitors - by a vast majority - speak in milliradians, and shooting MOA casts a shooter as the odd man out. Equally, PR competitors - again by a vast majority - dial elevation but hold wind, and ALL OF US are challenged to ONLY hold over on many stages throughout a season. Both abilities are necessary within the skillcraft of the sport. We also use our reticles to measure corrections on the clock, so completely ignoring the reticle is bad advice.

 

[TimRB]

If Precision Rifle Competition is among “any kind of competition,” then the above advice is not applicable.

Suit yourself. I was thinking of NRA long range and also Palma, where scopes are not actually used at all.

Tim

 

[Varminterror]

Suit yourself. I was thinking of NRA long range and also Palma, where scopes are not actually used at all.

Tim

If by “NRA Long Range” you mean Highpower Competition, then it too allows scopes in most classes of Service Rifle and Match Rifle competition, as do most other forms of rifle competition…

Odd that you’d claim you were thinking about competition types where scopes aren’t used at all, but giving advice about ignoring the reticle and dialing windage and elevation… sounds like backpedaling doubletalk to me.

 

[Chuck R.]

Suit yourself. I was thinking of NRA long range and also Palma, where scopes are not actually used at all.

Tim

Any event that has both a time and multiple target component involved, simpler is usually better.

Nope - I won’t be adopting this philosophy.

I grew up shooting mil-dot reticles with 1/4 or 1/8 IPHY or MOA turrets, still have at least four scopes left over with the same affliction. I do the math in their respective units with conversions between, and never negate the value of the difference between them.

Sure, the difference in ONE click isn’t terribly influential, but even at 300 yards with a flat shooting rifle, the difference matters… 600 yards, obviously even more…

If I play in mils, 300yrds is 1.4 mils, 14 clicks gets me there. In MOA, 4.7 MOA, that’s 19 clicks… if I dial 14 clicks on a MOA based optic, using mils instead of MOA, I’ll short myself 1.25MOA, sending my bullet almost 4” under the target…

At 600 yards, the correction is 4.6mils, or 15.7moa, so 46 clicks in 0.1mil versus 63 clicks in .25moa… so again, if I dial the mil count instead of the MOA, I’ll short myself by 17 clicks, and my bullets will fall short on target by 27” - TWENTY SEVEN INCHES - at only 600 yards.

View attachment 1054704 View attachment 1054705

It’s possible to manage the math pretty easily. 3.44 on top or bottom gets you where you need to go… but don’t play silly games trying to say n x .36”/100yrds approximates n x .262”/100yrds. I even use a mixed example of one of my 22LR’s which had a Mil-dot reticle paired with a 1/8 IPHY turret shooting 325 yards - where the turret runs out of room and the shooter has to dial AND hold to reach the target, including use of an SFP magnification factor - as a real world math problem for long range precision students. It’s just math, and about 3rd grade math at that. But approximating parity between the two is false.

I completely forgot about the STRELOK dual outputs for MOA and MIL as I normally turn one or the other off.

It actually makes the MOA turret/MIL reticle livable.

 

[TimRB]

If by “NRA Long Range” you mean Highpower Competition, then it too allows scopes in most classes of Service Rifle and Match Rifle competition, as do most other forms of rifle competition…

Odd that you’d claim you were thinking about competition types where scopes aren’t used at all, but giving advice about ignoring the reticle and dialing windage and elevation… sounds like backpedaling doubletalk to me.

No, by "NRA long range" I mean NRA long range. If you've not heard of it, I suggest you look it up. It is not the same as across-the-course service rifle (or match rifle) competition. It's normally shot at 1000 yards, and there is an "any rifle/any sight" category that allows scopes. I have been a service rifle shooter for years. The maximum range for across-the-course shooting is 600 yards, which is "medium range". As for Palma, by rule iron sights must be used but no club I have ever heard of will send a shooter away if he shows up with a scoped rifle. He will simply shoot out of competition. Palma is shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.

All long range and Palma shooters I know (and I know quite a few) dial elevation and wind with their turrets. Using elevation and windage marks on the reticle is simply not accurate enough.

Tim

 

[Bwana John]

I have found that many Precision Rifle stages do not give you enough time to dial anything... elevation, windage, or objective lens.

 

[LoonWulf]

No, by "NRA long range" I mean NRA long range. If you've not heard of it, I suggest you look it up. It is not the same as across-the-course service rifle (or match rifle) competition. It's normally shot at 1000 yards, and there is an "any rifle/any sight" category that allows scopes. I have been a service rifle shooter for years. The maximum range for across-the-course shooting is 600 yards, which is "medium range". As for Palma, by rule iron sights must be used but no club I have ever heard of will send a shooter away if he shows up with a scoped rifle. He will simply shoot out of competition. Palma is shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.

All long range and Palma shooters I know (and I know quite a few) dial elevation and wind with their turrets. Using elevation and windage marks on the reticle is simply not accurate enough.

Tim

I can't find anything on NRA longrange competition. Can you post a link? I'm curious about it.

 

[Varminterror]

I can't find anything on NRA longrange competition. Can you post a link? I'm curious about it.

It’s a Highpower class, as I stated it to be above. Which does allow optics… so the doublespeak about how to use optics which aren’t used in the competitions which do use optics was simply senseless.

 

[Varminterror]

I have found that many Precision Rifle stages do not give you enough time to dial anything... elevation, windage, or objective lens.

Work on your economy of movement.

 

[LoonWulf]

It’s a Highpower class, as I stated it to be above. Which does allow optics… so the doublespeak about how to use optics which aren’t used in the competitions which do use optics was simply senseless.

Thanks, I'm reading thru the handbook now!