I almost had to shoot. Home invasion. Car robbery. Mall fight.

[brighamr]

Ok so the title gets you interested right?








I've been involved in a few altercations in my life. I've never "almost had to shoot" anybody! There's been a large number of threads lately where the person "had my hand on my sig p229 with 11 rounds in the mag"... shouldn't you try a few things before shooting and possibly killing someone? it just seems like a lot of people consider there firearm the first resort in any situation, which is bad policy unless your in Iraq IMO.

I figured I'd start a thread seeing what people could/should do before the thought of using a firearm ever even gets considered....
1) use your brain. think about the situation and react accordingly.
2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years.
3) use non-lethal weapons (axe handle, fisticuffs, door locks, 911, video camera). There's a lot of things you can do in potential situations without brandishing.
4) prepare your house/car to avoid situations altogether. security bars, alarm systems, etc.


anything anyone else would do prior to shooting someone? I'd like this to be as general as possible, ie things to do in most situations.

This is an effort to get people to realize that not every threat out there requires a gun.

 

[XDKingslayer]

2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years.

I have a problem with that one right there. If someone kicks in my front door I DO have the ability to run out the back. However I refuse to. I WILL NOT run from my own house. I WILL NOT simply run and allow him to take all of my belongings.

And thank god I live in a state that agrees with me.

 

[ScottyT]

Good post, it really got me thinking.

While I agree with the spirit of your post, I disagree with a couple of the specifics. I am a very peaceful guy and would never want to hurt anyone, but if it comes down to me or them, I have already made that decision.

1) use your brain. think about the situation and react accordingly.
2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years.
3) use non-lethal weapons (axe handle, fisticuffs, door locks, 911, video camera). There's a lot of things you can do in potential situations without brandishing.
4) prepare your house/car to avoid situations altogether. security bars, alarm systems, etc.

#1 -- always a good idea to think about your actions before hand, but also a good idea to develop muscle memory through frequent training so that if a clear-cut self defense situation comes up, you don't have to spend time pondering what your reaction should be.

#2 -- I agree for the most part, always better to get the hell out of dodge than to start a gunfight. Good to know that I have no legal responsibility to retreat if I am in the location legally though... And I don't think I would flee my house (apartment for now) in the case of a home invasion.

#3 -- If someone confronts me with violence, I have to assume that HE is confident enough in his manner of attack (be it bare hands, bat, knife, etc) that HE thinks he can cause serious bodily harm or death to me (and it would take serious bodily harm or death before he can rob me or hurt my loved ones). I am going to take him at his word and respond with the business end of my .45. I have had limited martial arts training, but not nearly enough to be confident when it really counts.

#4 -- Absolutely. An ounce of prevention and all that good stuff...



I definitely believe that not every threat requires a gun. Most potential threats can be dealt with by living in condition yellow and exercising a bit of common sense. Even those that might require you to threaten with deadly force don't always require lead to leave the barrel (and yes I know that the requirements justifying threat of deadly force and use of deadly force are the same -- at least in Utah)

 

[Killian]

I think a home invasion is one of those crimes that should be met with maximum force available as a first response. There are extenuating circumstances that might arise...is the intruder wearing an air conditioning uniform and waving a work order for a neighbors house? Is the intruder intoxicated to the point of limited threat (falling down drunk)? Or some other such possibility. In those circumstances you can chose to shoot or not to shoot. In circumstances where the person clearly has no right to have entered your home...shoot him dead. He came into your home A) without giving adequate forethought to what he might do if confronted by someone inside, or B) gave the matter some thought and decided he would come in and accepted the possibility of having to comment violence against the home owner. In the second instance, he is committed to a violent course of action (dangerous). In the first instance, he doesn't know what he himself might do because he has no given no consideration to his responses (unpredictable).

Either of these mental states on the part of a home invader is reason enough to put him down, as he constitutes a clear danger to people inside the home.

 

[ridata]

Quote:

2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years.

I have a problem with that one right there. If someone kicks in my front door I DO have the ability to run out the back. However I refuse to. I WILL NOT run from my own house. I WILL NOT simply run and allow him to take all of my belongings.

And thank god I live in a state that agrees with me.

Actually, running out the back could be a poor idea also as there might be someone else trying to get in the back.
I don't think the OP originally had your house in mind writing that, but somewhere like at the store, restaurant, etc. and anywhere outside you are confronted.
And in the case of the recent posts on being attacked while in your car, that could be an instance where it is wise to flee.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

3) use non-lethal weapons (axe handle, fisticuffs, door locks, 911, video camera). There's a lot of things you can do in potential situations without brandishing.

That's a laugh. You're going to get close enough to use an axe handle or your hands, then if that doesn't work you're going to open the distance back up enough to draw and use a pistol? Ha!

It'd be nice if deadly-force encounters were always avoidable, but they aren't. If somebody is in your house, the time for hesitation is through.

 

[brighamr]

I'd like this to be as general as possible, ie things to do in most situations.

So, with that in mind. say you're in a bar and someone starts a fight, do you then try to leave the bar? or

I WILL NOT simply run

?

I agree. If someone attacks your house, don't run away. BUT in 90% of other situations (in your car, at a bar, in the mall, etc, etc) it's probably wiser to leave than possibly escalate the situation.


My whole point with this thread is that a lot of people want to post on THR about using their guns for SD. If you have to, by all means use it, but in a lot of situations there are several alternatives to taking someone's life.

 

[Urbana John]

home invasion = deadly force by home owner IMHO.

sorry if that sounds harsh, but why take any chances???

If I lived in a "complex" where everyone's home/apt. looks the same, it might be a different story, as in a drunk neighbor, but I would still be prepared. A "drunk", trying to open the wrong door with a key, sounds different than someone trying to pry the door open or glass breaking.

I'm 60 years old, and never could "hold my own" in a FAIR fight, what am I supposed to do if a 21 year old "hottie" breaks in and wants to have her way with me????? I'd be just as dead!!!!
Would be a way better way to go though!!

UJ

 

[shdwfx]

Urbana John, the innuendo wasn't necessary.
There are ladies on this board - let's be gentlemen.

 

[critter]

Used to work with an old guy. (You know what they say about old guys.) He used to say that he hated to fight, was to old to fight and would run a long way to avoid a fight. However, when he got home, he would not run any more!

I'm like him. Too fat to run, to old and lazy to fight. When I'm home, I'm more like a cornered cat. Push it and you just might get hurt-bad.

 

[icanthitabarn]

When I was younger, and more hot-headed, some guy didn't like me in the mistakenly wrong lane. So he goes out of his way to cut me off and about run me off the road. Then we had to stop at the next light. I get out, and try to open his door and shake him or something. He asks me if I wanna go and play pool over his house and smoke something like a peacepipe I think we were both straight so I followed him. Not sure who won.

 

[GHF]

What To Think Thru

I have the following steps your might want to think thru:

1. You Need to Get Your Mind Right. This is where you come to grips and make your peace with the fact that you are carrying the power of life and death. You need to walk through the various scenarios for what will happen after to be prepared for the entire event.
   [*]You Have to Know Where the Bright Line to Act Is. At what point can you legally stop the threat.
   [*]As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING. There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line has been and remains crossed.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I almost had to shoot. Home invasion. Car robbery. Mall fight.

Yep, I figured this was another thread started by some nut who was bragging about being in an altercation and "almost had to shoot" as if "almost had to shoot" is some epic pinnacle of combat...and then we read that "almost had to shoot" involves not even having a drawn gun or the gun is drawn on the wrong thing because the gun carrier reacted incorrectly.

I figured I'd start a thread seeing what people could/should do before the thought of using a firearm ever even gets considered....
1) use your brain. think about the situation and react accordingly.
2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years.
3) use non-lethal weapons (axe handle, fisticuffs, door locks, 911, video camera). There's a lot of things you can do in potential situations without brandishing.
4) prepare your house/car to avoid situations altogether. security bars, alarm systems, etc.

Okay, I will play.

#1 sounds like "Don't be stupid." If people aren't good thinkers, then you can't tell them to use their brain and expect them to do so. You can't outsmart stupid.

#2 Flight is good, but the comment about prison doesn't make much sense unless you are saying it is better to run than to illegally use a gun. That seems to go with #1 and not being stupid.

#3 Why would I want to use LESS lethal (non-lethal is a bad choice of words) in a situation requiring lethal force? Lethal force isn't my first reaction to all situations, but there is nothing wrong with it being the first response in a lethal force situation. If you want to play the non-escalation game during a lethal force situation, then you will likely be behind the curve. FYI, an ax handle most definitely can be considered a lethal weapon and warrant a lethal response. The suggestion to use that instead of a gun is silly. Oh and 911 isn't a weapon. It is a cry for help.
#4 Prepare my house/car to avoid situations? They aren't sentient. My house doesn't do anything and can't avoid situations. If a situation happens at the house or is coming toward the house, the house will simply remain in place. My car only does what I command it to do, but with no thought process. It is a machine. I have to be in it for it to avoid situations.

 

[ridata]

When I was younger, and more hot-headed, some guy didn't like me in the mistakenly wrong lane. So he goes out of his way to cut me off and about run me off the road. Then we had to stop at the next light. I get out, and try to open his door and shake him or something. He asks me if I wanna go and play pool over his house and smoke something like a peacepipe I think we were both straight so I followed him. Not sure who won.

Now that is funny.

 

[bogie]

Bogie think a lot of folks are getting really excited.

Other folks may be trying to get "street cred."

Let's see who has a "situation" today, and a few months from now they're trying to convince folks to either vote Hilbama or stay home...

I'm not paranoid...

 

[Big Boomer]

Its easy for me to show restraint. I tell myself and my wife this.

It will cost you NO LESS than $20,000 in legal fees if you pull the trigger. Is this situation worth it?

It's a pretty simple question to ask and can be applied just about anywhere.

Now don't get me wrong it may not actually cost that much, even nothing at all. But it really does help you quickly figure out if you are doing the right thing.

If a scenario is escalating and use of deadly for is a possibility is it cheaper to continue or to back down/away. My ego has a price, my life does not.

There have been lots of threads regarding road rage and such lately, and these can quickly end with deadly force if both parties continue to beat their chests to the point there is no alternative. Someone will be justified and someone will not but it will take a lot of money to figure that out.

This also goes in the defense of others. If someone is gettin a good old fashioned butt kicking. I sure as hell ain't gonna jump in a be super man with my 1911. I am not going to shoot someone that is trying to break into your car, or steal your things.

Now if you talk about my house and my things thats a different story. But using all the possible scenarios that use of deadly force is legal and actually acting on that legal authority 95% of them I would not use.

Unless my life or my family's is in immediate danger, or someone is actively being assaulted with deadly force (being stabbed repeatedly) and the only way they will live is with my intervention then yes I'll use it.

I ain't no superhero, and I sure as hell ain't rich. (Not for a lack of trying)

 

[JohnBlaze]

LOL at above post (Big Boomer)

I have to say I agree, but having been a member of various forums before this one it's amazing how many people rely on their ccw as their first and last response to any threat. I'm mature enough that if a situation arises in a paublic place where someone is just trying to act tought I'm not going to play that game. I'd rather walk away and be called a [si]ssy than stay and escalate the situation to where I or the other person could be seriously hurt.

I do draw the line inside my own home. If someone were breaking into my shed at night and I heard them, I'd probably call 911 and grab my bedside gun and stop them from fleeing or coming into my home. But I'm not gonna shoot and ask questions later unless they are forcefully entering my home and directly threatening myself or my family.

 

[jeepmor]

I've left for those spidey senses before. Never was sure why, didn't question it, just left.

Nothing happened.

However, I was saved from real potential ugliness twice by my dog. Once with a repeat visit prowler on the back porch, once with a shadowy figure trying to jiggle the screen out of my window. Both at o'dark thirty. Dog worked it out with both of them, they never came back. I liked her negotiating skills.

Let the chestbeating commence. No offense to you honorable folks, but you know some folks are going to chime in with way more balls than brains on this topic.

what am I supposed to do if a 21 year old "hottie" breaks in and wants to have her way with me?????

First off, in that role, as a man, she can't rape the willing. Second, if she's gonna have her way with you in that fashion, tell her to stop an inch or two before the old ticker gives out so you can tell your grandchildren about it.

 

[wristtwister]

Shoot or don't shoot... options

A couple of months back, I went to the ATM at my bank about 7:30 in the evening and when I pulled up, there was a van load of illegals that bailed out of the van and started toward my car. I simply pulled out my S&W model 4006, held it in front of the winshield, and racked it.

They all very politely ran all over each other getting back into the van and hauling it out of there.

I didn't "almost have to shoot" anybody... they got the message loud and clear from seeing the weapon. It wasn't pointed at anyone... just visible.

The illegals invasion has turned my neighborhood into a war zone, from being a nice, quiet place. Of the 23 murders in our city last year, 17 of them occurred in our zip code, and the gang grafitti is all over the place now... so I don't have any illusions when I pull my piece out... it's in the operating mode and I am searching for options to keep from having to use it... but I'm going to have it out and ready in any case.

SC has the "castle doctrine" so I lock up my house and if you are found inside at night, you will be found there when the police arrive. My dogs will most certainly entertain anybody that isn't supposed to be there, at least long enough for me to get lined up for a shot, but they will make things "interesting" until I'm ready.

When I was a deputy sheriff, our training officer used to tell us that you had to be "ready, steady, and pointed 'center mass' ". I guess after that, it's decision time...

I personally don't see any reason to run from bad guys... but, of course, I've spent years training in martial arts and shooting... so they're at a disadvantage unless they're either very, very good or very lucky. If they're in my house, they better be very good... because I'm sure their luck just ran out...

WT

 

[publiuss]

In your home is a much different situation than outside. You essentially have to deal with the threat in one way or another. If you conceal carry outside of your house that is a different situation. You really have a responsibility to avoid dangerous situations to a greater degree than if you weren't armed. If your in a bar drinking beer and someone trys to start a fight with you if you are unarmed go ahead and fight if that's your thing. I personally would walk away because you might get your butt kicked or beaten with a pool cue. If you are armed you have no business drinking beer in a bar. If you are carrying you should only draw your weapon if your life is in immediate danger. You have a responsibility to avoid all confrontations if you're armed. If some one trys to start a fight with you, back off, apoligie, run, unless he has some sort or weapon or he has you cornered you should'nt draw.

 

[ar10]

I'd know your what your state laws mandate and every state is different. More and more states are enacting the "castle doctrine" but some haven't yet. In Ohio for example you still have "the duty to retreat". That simply means if you are being car-jacked and you shoot the BG. it's up to you to prove your innocence. If you are in your own home. (not outside on your property) you do not have to retreat and you can use deadly force to protect yourself/family. The caveat is under current Ohio law you are open to civil suit by the persons or person who commited the home invasion. In other words it's going to cost you a lot of money.
I think the most important thing for any individual is to keep a calm head. If you aren't in immediate danger then be a good witness.

 

[Mp7]

i once stood on a very dark street with a revolver holding 3 badguys in check for a darn long while till a bus came by and i jumped on it and got away.

...if i had not had the gun, i would have definitely bailed out of the situation before it arose.... carrying makes your blodd go into your balls,
and that´s the blood that you may be missing in your brain, while
assessing the situation.

From what i read here, there are many paranoid folks
on the forums, who carry a gun and gigantic paranoia
in relatively peaceful calm surroundings.

good post.


( ..of course i would not run from my home from anyone ... unless it´s more zombies
than my lawnmower can take )

 

[buck00]

I like the theme of your post. There are times I get a sense of Travis Bickle type fantasies from some members- as if they are hoping to get robbed some day so they can finally use their CCW.


Honestly, your brain is the best weapon. Example: imagine if you put two guys in a really bad urban area; the city's power is out, no cell phone, no cops around, its 1 am and they both have to walk out seperately (30 blocks).

* The first guy is a paranoid mall-ninja type, grew up in a small town, goes to the range every weekend, but has limited experience dealing with people and life in the city. He has body armor, a Kimber 1911 with five mags of JHP, and a back up Glock 27. The second guy has no guns at all but street smarts- he knows how to walk/talk in the city and read people. Chances are the second guy makes it out alive and with no problems.

Just something to think about.

 

[mbt2001]

1) use your brain. think about the situation and react accordingly.

You are assuming we are not...

2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years

Most people do, we have spoken about it a million times in this forum. I will say this though, there are circumstances were heroics are desired.

3) use non-lethal weapons (axe handle, fisticuffs, door locks, 911, video camera). There's a lot of things you can do in potential situations without brandishing.

This falls in with Number 2. Fleeing is a "non-lethal" response. Also, if you try to deploy non-lethal tactics, it may get you killed or thrown in jail. First, flee. If you can't shoot. Nothing wrong with that approach in theory.

4) prepare your house/car to avoid situations altogether. security bars, alarm systems, etc.

There is no way to make a house unbreakinable. Even if you do, this will not stop people from robbing you on your way in to your castle or looking for OTHER means to gain entrance. I agree that you should "harden" your house with all the above, but it will not AVOID any situation only deter the lazy. It could very well send a signal to other criminals that you have something to steal.

The same thing that will make you laugh will make you cry.


Situational awareness and response. Those two things (or the lack thereof) are what makes people victims or survivors.

 

[saltydog452]

Isn't conjecture wonderful?

Any 'thinking' or 'codgeatation' should have been done prior to CCW.

I'd imagine, that if a grave threat to you and yours is an ongoing reality, that paticular moment would not be the time to scratch your watch, wind your shorts, and plan for legal aid.

salty