I almost had to shoot. Home invasion. Car robbery. Mall fight.

[Biker]

If I can avoid shooting a man by shouting harsh words in his general direction, I will.

If I can avoid shooting him by using my fists and boots, I will.

If I can avoid shooting him through the use of my Louisville Slugger, I will.

Shooting a man (with a few exceptions) is the last thing you want to do.

Biker

 

[Billy_H]

I always liked how one of my instructors put it...

It's better, easier, and cheaper to avoid a violent situation than try and extricate ones self from one.


I've yet to have a situation where I felt I was going to need my firearm, but I have had some encounters when I was younger that had the potential to go south very quickly. In all of them I was able to keep a level head and in most of them it never turned overly physical.

Each situation has to be judged on its own merit and should be responded to accordingly. If I don't feel I have to use my strongest response to stay safe I won't.

 

[Ignition Override]

XDKingSlayer:

You are fortunate, as with many of us, as to what kind of state you live in.

Many state legislatures/senates on the west and northeast coasts have members who seem to carry "The Book of Mao (Tse Tung)".

 

[Kindrox]

Maybe I have a different lifestyle than some. I have never had to contemplate the fisticuff-axe handle-firearm threat escalation ladder.

Perhaps as I am in a different social circle that the OP, I really am in the all clear – need a firearm NOW threat escalation ladder. You know, where 99.9999% of life is “all clear” of problems.

 

[TallPine]

I agree, Kindrox

If I have a gun and really need to hurt somebody in order to defend myself or my family, I'm not going to be using fists or axe handles (except maybe to get some distance to use my gun).

My 2 rules are: be armed and maintain distance. Don't let anyone you don't trust get inside your personal space. That means things like not opening the door to strangers, etc.

 

[foghornl]

I'm 55+, bad knees & wobbly hip joints. I ain't outrunning a 2-year old on a "Big Wheel".

I will retreat when I can, but not in my home.....except to "Foggy's Artillery Locker" if I have to get out the Serious Stuff.

 

[Dravur]

I dunno

I think there are billions of iterations that could all be handled differently....

If I see something at a great distance, have no way to stop it, call the police and be a good witness.

Maybe i'll flee, Maybe I'll fight, it really depends on what is happening at that moment...

And maybe, just maybe... I'll pull out the FNC, the Al Pacino mask and just chase the bad guys around for a while.

 

[macadore]

"He that fights and runs away, may turn and fight another day; but he that is in battle slain, will never rise to fight again."
-- Tacitus

Of course there are rare occasions when you can’t run.

 

[buzz_knox]

It's worth remembering that some of the "non-lethal" options floating around (i.e. axe handle, baseball bat) constitute deadly weapons in many jurisdictions. Using them on another person could carry the same penalty as using a firearm.

Of course there are rare occasions when you can’t run.

Running is an option if the other person has no desire to chase you or shoot you. How you determine that before or during your run (unless one plans on running backwards) is somewhat difficult.

 

[wadeh]

do what you have to do

1)Avoid situations and circumstances that may put you in danger.
2)If you find yourself in danger anyway, retreat if possible
3)If you or your family are still in danger; aim, fire and eliminate the threat
If you have truly exercized the first two actions, your conscience will be fine and don't worry too much about the law. Not to trivialize the potential legal ramifications, but if my life or the life of my family is in danger, I will protect them and myself regardless what the law says. In the words of Texas Ranger Lone Wolf Gonzulas "Better to be indicted for killing some sorry son-of-a-bitch than have some sorry son-of-a-bitch indicted for killing you"

 

[RX-178]

I make every reasonable effort to stay out of places where situations are more likely to happen. (Bars, bad parts of town, etc.)

I make every reasonable effort to leave when situations seem to be developing.

I make every reasonable effort to defuse situations where I cannot leave.



When things get unreasonable, the weapon is drawn. If things STAY unreasonable, the weapon is fired.




Where I end up diverging from what seems to be the current conventional wisdom, is that I don't have it in me to leave it alone if I see someone else in danger for their life.

If I'm in a mall at the same time the next psycho decides to go on a rampage, I don't find it reasonable to just find the nearest exit.

If someone's on the ground getting stomped on by a bunch of people, I don't find it reasonable to sit back and watch while waiting for 911 to respond.

If someone's shoving a pistol into a convenience store clerk's face, I don't find it reasonable to just go get my beers and Mt. Dews somewhere else that day.


Maybe I'm too philosophical about it, but it to me, it feels like I'd be saying these people deserve their fate because they chose not to go through the process of getting a CCW license. That's not a point of view I'm comfortable with adopting.

And if the situations were reversed, and I was the one behind the counter with a gun in my face, or the person on the ground being stomped on, or the person with bullets flying past in the middle of the mall, and it was someone else with a CCW that came by, I know I'd prefer that they intervene.

 

[orienteeer]

assuming there's a second or two........

would you shout something like "stop or i'll shoot!"

or, "get out or i'll shoot!"

?????

 

[coloradokevin]

This debate was getting a bit too heated for my tastes. But, here's my take on it:

For many situations, the average CCW holder is better off just getting away from a situation. If you stumble into a restaraunt where a "bar fight" is in progress, exit and call the police.

If someone starts talking smack to you on the street, avoid the confrontation.

If someone tries to start something while you are in your car, drive away. If they follow, call the police.

To me, deadly force is for the situation you can't avoid: The night a thug corners you in an alley, and there is no escape. The day someone breaks into your house, where you shouldn't run. The day that someone's life depends upon your action/inaction, etc.

A gun isn't to be used to prove who is more macho, or who is going to win a bar fight, or for the resolution of the proverbial pissing match that people tend to have with each other before a fight... If you can, just walk away.

Even as an off-duty police officer, there are many situations I have been in that I could have easily escalated. But, it was far easier (and safer, both to my self and my career) to walk away.

I think the OP's point is that sometimes people fall a bit too far into the "I'll shoot my way out" attitude on the internet. These situations should be avoided at all costs.

I agree that you have every right to defend your home, and not back down. I wouldn't back down against an intruder in my house.

But, I won't stay and fight with someone on the street for the sake of a little pride, with the price being the cost of someone's life (if it is reasonably prudent to walk away in the given situation).

No two situations are alike. Still, if I tried to define stuff outside of the home in general terms: I couldn't walk away from a robbery in progress (though I might if I had my family with me). I wouldn't walk away from a sex assault in progress, even if I had my family with me. And I couldn't ever walk away from an active shooter situation without acting. But, there are thousands of other situations where walking away would be the best course of action!

My ultimate point is: People need to think with their heads, not with their hearts.

 

[TallPine]

Well stated, Kevin

 

[skinewmexico]

I'm 50 years old, why would I want to use an axe handle, rather than brandishing? So I could look like a popsicle?

And Big Boomer........how doo you figure $20,000 in legal fees, with the new Texas Castle Doctrine?

 

[Lupinus]

1) use your brain. think about the situation and react accordingly.
2) flee if possible. better to run than be in prison for x years.
3) use non-lethal weapons (axe handle, fisticuffs, door locks, 911, video camera). There's a lot of things you can do in potential situations without brandishing.
4) prepare your house/car to avoid situations altogether. security bars, alarm systems, etc.

You are, mostly, completely wrong.

1) Absolutely. Your brain is your strongest tool and most dangerous weapon.
2) EHHH....no. Fleeing is a possibility, however it isn't always an option and even if it is often isn't the best option. How bout if you can't run? In a situation where doing so puts you or others in more danger? RUN!!! is not something that should be in your bag of tricks, everyone has two feet and if it was effective crime would be ziltch. And a justifiable shooting doesn't equal x numbers in jail.
3) No weapon is "non-lethal" if it isn't lethal it isn't a weapon. If you are unarmed certainly use something else. If for whatever reason you can't use the gun you are carrying of course revert to a knife or your hands. But generally if you have a gun close quarters for a hand to hand situation is stupid. What happens when you are wrestling and bad guy gets your own gun and shoots you? If you carry a gun, be prepared to use it. If you are deadset against using it don't carry it. Yes, 911 is great if you have time but this goes with #1 using your brain.
4) Secure peace of mind does not equal secure place of occupancy. Most professional thieves laugh at alarm systems. Bars can be gotten through easier then you think. You are relying in barriers which have over the course of time proven to do no more then to slow a determined intruder at best, at worst to be a slight obstacle. As for alarm systems they are there to alarm you and call the calvary. Not protect you directly. When seconds count the police are minutes away.

 

[fireflyfather]

Fleeing your home is an incredibly stupid tactic. You are on your home ground, know the area/lighting/defensive positions well, probably have access to a land line phone, and, in general, have more credence to say you were an innocent party attacked without provocation. The instant you go out the back door, you are now a lunatic running around with a firearm, just like the lunatic trying to hurt you (at least in the eyes of many lawmen/jurists). You also have a decent chance of walking into the perps buddy who is waiting for you to do just that, and it may very well be an ambush.

Fleeing as a first course of action is also not possible in MANY situations, maybe not most of the time for everyone, but a significant enough number that it is not trivial (I am usually out with my wife and 2 year old...and I have asthma and a bum knee). For a lot of us, it IS most of the time. Especially for those of us with families, bugging out of our house is NOT an option. You can't crawl out of a 2 story window quickly or quietly with a screaming 2 year old.

Being inside your own home or vehicle provides you with a very strong tactical advantage. The legal benefits are also quite good as well, even in a "duty to retreat" state.

Having said all of that, if I can SAFELY (mine & those I care for) avoid a physical confrontation with some beef-witted malcontent with violence in mind, I will, at every opportunity.

 

[brighamr]

coloradokevin - you summarized my intent perfectly. Thank you.

Lupinus - it's obvious you will "shoot first, ask later" I hope that works well for you in court...

 

[RX-178]

I agree in all cases that fleeing your home in the face of an attack is a stupid decision.

But that doesn't mean you should disregard exiting the home as a tactical maneuver.

The odds that this maneuver would be necessary are slim to none, but then again, the statistical odds of having to use a CCW in defense of your life are incredibly slim as well, and that doesn't stop us from practicing their use, does it?


To give an example of a scenario where this might be an appropriate tactical maneuver, let's say that there's not just one person, but a number of people, around 4-5 of them. They've broken into the house through the garage, or maybe even the front door. They may be armed. Standing and fighting right in the living room in this situation may not be the best course of action, but as you are familiar with the layout of your own home, you know that you can get to the back door without starting an immediate confrontation.

So you exit the house from the back door, circle back around to where the burglars made their entrance, to come up behind them.


I'll stress again how unlikely it is you will be faced with this scenario, particularly with how many details have to be right for this maneuver to be appropriate. But I do want you all to know that exiting the building, and fleeing your home are not always the same thing.

 

[markallen]

Here in Ohio we have the duty to retreat, if we can retreat SAFELY. ( Ohio's Castle Doctrine Bill is in the House).
In my case my wife is in a wheelchair. When we are out together she is in her manual chair. This makes it different from someone with the ability to run away.
Chances are if something would occur I would only have one hand available since my other would be pushing my wifes chair. That is why I carry a DAO sp101, or P345 DO/SA semi-auto.
This is why I don't carry anything but my ccw.
I know that most people that ccw carry a knife as well.
I can't afford to stand and duke it out or swing knives with someone, and leave my wife helpless if I go down.

 

[Lupinus]

Lupinus - it's obvious you will "shoot first, ask later" I hope that works well for you in court...

No, it's called I will use the most effective means available in order to protect me and mine. Having a plan that involves nothing more then "RUN!" doesn't fit into that, because it's rarely practical and often disastrous. Neither does a plan that involves me taking on a violent thug with my bare hands while I have tools available to do a better job defending myself.