I am having a hard time trying to decide on a caliber for a defensive handgun

[gomakemeasandwich]

According to who? People like dr gary roberts are saying things like the .380 isn't a good choice at all even for a bug.

Who cares what Dr. Gary Roberts thinks? Is Dr. Roberts willing to stand downrange and take a few .380 hits? Probably not. The .380 is fine for normal defensive carry.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

While there are many good options for you at this point, I'm going to vote for a 9mm semi-auto. You are already familiar with the feel of your Bersa. It wouldn't be that difficult to get used to the feel of a larger 9mm semi-auto, such as the Ruger. I personally find that I don't shoot revolvers as well as I do semi-autos.

In terms of the caliber, I think that 9mm is a good compromise in terms of power, recoil and cost. Lower ammo costs equals more range time, and more range time should lead to better shot placement if you ever need to defend yourself.

Good luck with your purchase!

TMann

I thought this was actually really good advice (maybe because it fit my line of thinking). Still, if I could afford that Glock 30, I would buy it.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

FYI, the .38 Special Chicago load is far superior to the .380 ACP and easily tops the 9 mm, shot for shot.

Jerry

I disagree, but arguing ballistics is a boring pursuit. Most people (including me) believe that the 9mm is a step up from the .38 special in any load, but if you want to believe the .38 is better than the 9mm, that's your decision.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

The answer for the list of calibers you give is "yes."

All are good calibers, all have advantages and disadvantages when compared with each other, but all are good calibers that will do the job. Given that, I think it is most important to decide on a platform (auto v. revolver, and which particular auto or revolver that feels best in your hand) and then worry about caliber. Once you narrow down the platform, you will have narrowed your caliber list at least a little.

That said, some advantages and disadvantages of the calibers:

-.38spl:
Depending upon the loading it may be just barely acceptable, or it can be a pretty good caliber. With the right load it can be a great caliber, you can get very light wadcutters for easy practice, and you can get inexpensive practice rounds. Only 9mm will cost less to practice with in the major service calibers. It can give decent stopping ability while limiting your risk of overpenetration, with relatively low recoil (quick follow up shots) and low report (better for your hearing).

-.357mag:
A revolver in .357mag can shoot .38spl so it is even more versatile. I load my magnums with .38+P for home defense. Using magnums, you have some great powerful rounds to chose from. Some of the best. You also have minimum power for bear defense out in the woods. However, for self-defense (whether CCW or home defense) the .357mag has a lot of penetration, too much- I see overpenetration to be a big issue. I don't want to risk hitting the bad guy, having the bullet go through the bad guy and then hitting a bystander or a family member. Also, it is loud so you can pretty much count on some hearing damage after an indoor defensive shoot.

-9mm:
As cheap as you can get (outside .22lr) for practice ammo and with the right loadings you have some good defensive choices. Recoil is low so you can get quick follow up shots as needed. The guns chambered in it will either be smaller than comparable .40s and .45s or have more rounds in the mag. Drawbacks include: overpenetration (high velocity rounds like 9mm are more likely to overpenetrate than a lower velocity round like .45ACP), less ammo flexibility (while there are some very good loads, there are also some very poor performers in this caliber).

.40S&W:
I used to be with you, it didn't do it for me. Now it is my favorite CCW caliber. Power levels up there with .45ACP, it can be put in smaller guns than .45ACP or it will hold more rounds in similar sized guns, much more flexibility in loads than 9mm (you can buy what is on sale since there aren't really any bad .40S&W defensive loads), to me recoil isn't bad, prices of practice ammo pretty much split the difference between the cost of .45ACP and 9mm. However, I don't like it as much for home defense as it is a high velocity round like 9mm so overpenetration may be an issue.

.45ACP:
The standard everything else is compared to. It is powerful (as handgun rounds go), plentiful (not that any of your other choices aren't), recoil isn't bad, being a slower round (it gets its power from its size) it is less likely to overpenetrate. In my mind it is the best auto caliber for home defense because of the combination of power without too much overpenetration.

I have guns in all the listed calibers (and others) so I don't have to choose. I started with a 9mm and .38spl, and see nothing wrong with you doing the same (though I quickly traded both on a .45ACP and a .357mag, usually loaded with .38+P but I found the ability to shoot magnums reassuring). If I wanted one gun to do it all, it would either be a .45 or a K-frame .357mag loaded with .38+P.

If you choose a revolver, since you are worried about capacity I'd suggest looking at Taurus. They have three K-frame sized .357mag revolvers with 7 shots (the 66, the Tracker, and the 2" 617, plus the 2" 7 shot .38spl 817). If you were looking for home defense instead of carry, you could look at the 8-shot, large frame 608. Anyway, in autos and revolvers there are a ton of good choices. Again, I suggest going to the gunshop and handling them, and try to test fire some at a range with rentals, to see what feels best to you, then caliber will be easier to figure out.

This was a really good answer. Thank you.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

You should take your time and find the right pistol because I think the Bersa Thunder is not a bad defensive pistol ( I have one myself ) , remember it is the shot placement that count -.380 ACP in center mass beat .44 Magnum that hit the wall .

I agree with, I like my Bersa a lot, and I have no problem with the Bersa in most situations (I actually don't carry often). Still, I need something with either a high magazine capacity or a backup to the Bersa, which is why I posted in the first place. Normally, I would have no problem carrying the Bersa, but sometimes I need more.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

What ever a new, or novice shooter gets, he should attend a decent instruction designed around that firearm. Safety is between the ears, not in the hand.

Many new shooters have been taught well, how to safely use the 1911. It only takes proper instruction and a good learners mindset. Study safety well, use the lessons. A goof up with any firearm is courting disaster.

Jerry

I am not a novice.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

Shoot it weak hand rapid fire and see how accurate you are. Most people don't ever do this but it is a mistake. It is a very real possibility that not only with you hand to defend yourself with only one hand but it may be the weak hand that ends up doing the shooting. There a million reasons this could be the case, you could be injured, carrying something you don't want to drop (baby, money, ect), you could be fending off someone with one arm, you could be using the arm to drive or hang on to something.

Whatever it is, you still should be able to shoot rapid fire with your weak hand. You should not only be able to hit with your weak hand but also control the gun so it doesn't slip out of your hand during recoil.

I like this suggestion, and I think I will try it. Good suggestion.

 

[molonlabetn]

Lots of good answers up here... All I have to add is an alternative; why not keep the platform you have (which I assume you are familiar and comfortable with aside from your stopping power question)... and buy some hotter SD loads for it? Double-Tap produces a .380 load which roughly equals .38spl +p, and even some low-end 9mm.

Double-Tap .380 90gr Gold-Dot @ 1100fps 242ft-lb from 3.5" Bersa Thunder barrel

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

I think you're way over analyzing the choice...

If you like .38 Spl, then that's the one to buy.

Just remember, your goal is to stop a fight or attack...that's all. You'll be within 5 feet of the assailant....a .38 will do fine.

So, buy the .38...carry it and don't look back.

Maybe, but I'd rather put too much energy into it than not enough.

 

[Tomcat47]

Sandwich!....

I disagree with anyone who down plays the .380...History says otherwise and ballistics as stated above is a pointless argument. And most of all self defense has little to do with caliber, and everything to do with preperation.

I carry a .380 myself, and IMO it is the best self defensive gun I have, not because of ballistics, but due to the fact that it IS more than powerful enough to change the outcome of an attack, but most of all I have awesome control and accuracy with my Taurus PT58 HC. Out of all my firearms (and I do have better firearms than the little Taurus) If I am ever caught in a bad situation and have to defend myself and / or family I hope it is on my prson or close by, and the aggressor will not like it being there.

The .380 has a balanced performance factor in a close quarters self defensive situation.

here is an interesting site for you... www.internetarmory.com a lot to read re: self defense and calibers and so on so forth.

If you can hit with your Bersa .380 RETHINK your decisions. I had a Bersa .380 and I liked it.

When the time for action has come...The time for preperation has passed.

 

[Jerry Morris]

I disagree, but arguing ballistics is a boring pursuit. Most people (including me) believe that the 9mm is a step up from the .38 special in any load, but if you want to believe the .38 is better than the 9mm, that's your decision.

Will not argue with you. Just remember, I said one load, not all .38 Specials.

For someone who was undecided, you are so authoritative. -=<BEG>=-

Jerry

 

[Jerry Morris]

I disagree with anyone who down plays the .380...History says otherwise and ballistics as stated above is a pointless argument. And most of all self defense has little to do with caliber, and everything to do with preperation.

The .380 is lethal. Just remember, some of have seen it fail to stop against living flesh. Shoot enough live things and you begin to understand what stopping power is. I have.

I am not about killing power for defense. I want that, which I can place where it needs to be, with all the power I can control and see the result is a stop. You might get that with a .380, but it is a known fact, many times you do not. History supports this FACT. Wounded predators are dangerous things. And we are at the top of the food chain, which makes it even more dangerous. Add deviant practices, like substance abuse and the issue is compounded.

If caliber meant so little, we would all be toting .22 shorts.

Jerry

 

[labcoat31]

I'm new here.

Just came across this website and joined. I have a 9 mm and a 357. The 9 holds 8+ 1. The 357 holds 6. The 357 has more stopping power but I still like my 9. There both good!!

 

[Jerry Morris]

Just came across this website and joined. I have a 9 mm and a 357. The 9 holds 8+ 1. The 357 holds 6. The 357 has more stopping power but I still like my 9. There both good!!

Yup, they're good. I like mine, too. If they work like they're supposed to, they will do.

Welcome to the site.

Jerry

 

[labcoat31]

Great to be here!!

Thanks for the reply. I'm looking forward to many informative discussions here!

 

[flyfisher000]

Quote:
Don't believe everthing you read on the internet. You don't know its origin. More people die from the shock of being shot then from the wound itself.

Quote:
Along those lines could I ask you to cite a source for that information and what type of shock they're refering to.

I see you have over 2000 post, my that is a lot of posting. I wasn't going to answer this because that will just go into a pissing match. If that is not your intention then I am sorry to have assumed that. Having said that...

Ok, I have really read this in many reputable articles over the years. The only source that sticks in my mind is an article written in JAMA while waiting in the Doctors office about two years ago. I remember it only because they are so very antigun. Let us forget about gunshot wounds for a moment. The 1st rule when someone suffers trauma is to keep that person from going into shock, and to keep them awake. I know that litttle tid-bit of information because both my children are in the medical field. I asked my daughter how to best explain shock without having to quote the dictionary and she told me to tell that person to go and sit at one of the large city hospitals for an hour on a Friday night and they will get a idea of the shock that I am refering to. Again I am not just refering to trauma caused by gunshot, a bad car accident can cause the same amount of shock, so can being stabbed or shot with a 22cal bullet.

 

[Jerry Morris]

flyfisher000: JAMA info is not infallible. In fact JAMA has been used politically as an anti-gun weapon, by its own people. They have an agenda.

What is shock? How fast is its onset?

How do you explain people, who have already suffered a lethal wound, going on to kill their killer? When I say lethal wounds, I mean heart shot and brain shot wounds, that did end in death! Just look at the FBI Miami Massacre for more evidence on the unreliability of shock induced incapacity. Those guys were shot to ribbons, on both sides.

Shock is not a fight ender. Yes, some timid souls get shot in the little finger and die of fright. Do not count on this effect universally.

Jerry

 

[Socrates]

Well, most of the time the shootings we hear about are done with service caliber rounds that have very minor changes. In fact, the industry seems determined to take even the Magnum calibers, load light bullets, at slow to medium velocity, and turn your 44 mag into a 9mm, or 45 ACP.

I think this shock does happen, just not with the loads the big 3, and the industry feed us.

Example: Deer are pretty tough. Friend ham shot one, missed every vital organ.
However, a 400 grain, expanded .475 bullet opened up, and made a huge wound, end to end on the deer. Deer went 5 yards, fell over dead, no CNS, no explanation.

Jack Huntington's .500 JRH, 440 grain LFN bullet, at 950 fps, seems to have the effect of a 375 H&H rifle on 1000-2500 pound bovine. I suspect if wasn't politically incorrect, and we had 260-300 grain HP's for defense, there would be REAL one shot stops...

Also, there appears to be multiple wounding dynamics. Yes, that 400 grain XTP at 1350 works well, but, how come that 440 grain .500 caliber flat nose, non expanding bullet at a wimpy 950 kills all out of range for what the FPE is?

S esq.

 

[Jerry Morris]

Socrates; I have fired some of those monsters. They are boomers! Never did try to conceal one. 1911 seems to be as big as I go for defense in a handgun.

Yup, think I'd go for a 12 gauge instead, if I felt I needed that much punch.

Jerry

 

[labcoat31]

12 Gauge

I keep a 12 gauge at the head of the bed, I keep it loaded but not chambered. The first warning is the very familiar pump of the shot gun, the second warning is bird shot, to me thats enough warning. The next shot is 00 BUCK!!!

 

[Lonestar49]

4 pages later.. wow

...

Seriously, your best bet is to start off with a 9mm.. Cheapest ammo, allows you to spend the time learning and lots of practice. This will also determine if you want to stay involved in guns. If you do, then you, like most of us, will buy several, many, more guns over the years.

Then you'll end up saying, "why didn't I get a 45 cal?"

On the other hand, if you don't want to pursue your gun knowledge, a 9mm will be a user-friendly item to sell, as compared to a 380.

Sig P232 SL 380:

I will say this about the 380, that size wise, the gun, it is very ccw, and as far as punch, effect, it's there, but it's the shot placement that will do it, not so much the size of the bullet. But one thing I can tell you about 380, it is not as soft a shooter compared to a 9mm IMO, and it requires high maintenance, in that, because of the "blow back" action it uses to cycle each round, they get dirty quick, and from my experience, anything past 200 rounds of clean, new, ammo, FMJ for range, HD/SD, everything, IMO, and your chances of a jam go way up..

Keep it clean, on or before 200 rounds, and you should have no problems.

Sig P229R 9mm

Speaking for my other Sig 9mm, it can and does go, 800 rounds without any problems before I give her a total cleaning..

9mm ammo comes in many loads, so the question of impact punch, is mute IMO, but once again, it all comes down to shooter's shot-placements.

Another advantage of a 9mm is most can be fitted with Crimson Trace Laser "grips", which can't be beat for Night time use, at will.

To my knowledge, least for my 380, these laser grips are not an option available.

Last, even if you say price is not the concern, let's say it is concern, and you're having a hard time justifying spending 900-1000 dollars for a first SD/HD gun that you may or may not like up the road after the money has been spent.

That was my big concern, for my first gun, and it all came down to natural feel, point to aim, ease of slide action and field-stripping. The 2 guns, one for 500 bucks, the CZ, and the other for 600 bucks, the Beretta Px4 were the final choices, and Beretta won out because of size, weight, ease of action, ease of field stripping for inspection, and all around finish.

I would point you at either a CZ or a Beretta Px4 in 9mm, as the 40cal which I bought, and still is my favorite gun out of the bunch, demands the most practice to get used to the recoil effect, even though, looking back, it wasn't, and isn't that bad. But after shooting it for some 800 rounds, then getting my second gun, the Sig 9mm, and the rest in the order you see, they ALL shot so easy compared to the 40cal, which, when I went back to the 40cal, after shooting the 9mm, it too, seemed more docile.. With the exception of the 380, I was, still am, surprised at the amount of snap/recoil it serves out, each round. Love the gun, just not a forgiving gun in 95gr IMO.

It's just getting proper technique down that makes each gun work, some more forgiving than others.. IMO.

Best of luck, again


LS

 

[labcoat31]

9mm

Lonestar49 I have a 9mm and I agree it's easy to use and is effective. I also have a 357 that packs a good punch and you practice with 38 speacials that are cheaper so you can get in a lot of practice at the range.

 

[Jerry Morris]

Lonestar49 I have a 9mm and I agree it's easy to use and is effective. I also have a 357 that packs a good punch and you practice with 38 speacials that are cheaper so you can get in a lot of practice at the range.

Any practice is better than none. But, serious preparation for defense demands that you practice with a load that duplicates the recoil and point of impact as the serious load that will be your defense load.

Those who try to prepare for defense by using a softer, cheaper load and then going to a decent load for defense, cheat themselves. If a cheaper load handles and recoils the same and hits to same point of aim, this is good. But, it is seldom the case.

It seems that some 124 grain 9mm FMJ will hit paper the same as a similar decently designed JHP. I get the same results with 230 Ball and Federal 230 Hydra-Shoks, in my 1911s. It will work, but you just do not blindly trust that it will.

If you practice with .38 Special in a 357 Magnum, then use those loads in defense. No way, does the 38 prepare you for the magnum in practice.

Jerry

 

[Lonestar49]

I would have to agree with Jerry

...

I agree with his above statement, in that, while trying to find the best, most accurate, bullet for my Px4 40, I kept going back and forth between 165gr and 180gr. I finally scored some Remington 180gr JHP, 2 boxes 50 rounds each, for 13.95 each. I like the less recoil of the heavier bullet, 180gr, and shot the first box of the 50 JHP 180gr with accuracy the same as with the same FMJ 180gr, and since have had that "smile/assurance."

The same holds true for the calibers weight in both JHP & FMJ for the rest of my guns.. All the same weights for both range and HD/SD loads.


LS

 

[labcoat31]

I agree.

Jerry, You are right. I use both 357 & 38's at the range. I have someone else load the gun and I dont know what round is going to come out when I pull the trigger, the first two rounds might be 38's, the next 357, and then 38. I learned this from a guy I know who owns a gun shop and is a NRA certified instructor.