I have mixed feelings on this...

What do you think

  • Great idea, they ought to do more of this

    Votes: 11 17.5%
  • You've gotta be kidding, go get a training facility

    Votes: 46 73.0%
  • Who cares, I gotta go buy some ammo.

    Votes: 6 9.5%

  • Total voters
    63
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musher

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Jan 4, 2003
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586
Location
Fairbanks, AK
Part of me thinks it's great they're training, but another part is a bit aghast at them using middle school students as training material.

What do you think

school prepares for worst


Article Published: Friday, May 06, 2005

School prepares for the worst

By AMANDA BOHMAN, Staff Writer

NORTH POLE--Wearing military fatigues and a sign that read "Bad Guy," Daniel Walters rattled doors and banged on lockers as more than 500 North Pole Middle School students spent Thursday's sixth period huddled silently under desks in dark, locked classrooms.

Principal John Pile lay on the floor near the school's front doors after a pretend assault by Walters.

A team of North Pole police officers swept the school with their unloaded weapons drawn and apprehended an errant lunchroom monitor before detaining Walters, who in real life is a freshman at Hutchison High School.

The elaborately-scripted drill--which took months to plan, involved two FBI agents as observers and began with a smoke grenade to simulate toxic smoke at a nearby oil refinery--ended an 18-month, $248,521 federally funded effort to shore up safety in the area's public schools.
Eric Engman/News-Miner SAFETY TRAINING--North Pole police officers, led by Lt. Steve Dutra, second from left, fan out with unloaded weapons to search the hallways during an Emergency Response and Crisis Management Improvement Project field exercise Thursday at North Pole Middle School. From left, the officers are Terry Young, Dutra, Scott Deal and Bill Bellant. The exercise tested the response team as well as the students and staff about dealing with an armed intruder in the school.

"As we all know, the world is getting more dangerous, not safer," said Doug Crevensten, grants and special projects director for the Fairbanks North Star Borough School District.

The effort began in 2003 when area officials traveled to the National Emergency Training Center in Maryland for training.

After they returned, they taught teams of teachers, secretaries, custodians, nurses and sometimes parents and students how to revise the emergency response plans for each of the district's 32 schools. The teams concocted multiple "what if" scenarios and talked out their responses to each of them.

According to Crevensten, many ideas for the revised plans came from lessons learned in the wake of the April 1999 rampage at Columbine High School in Colorado, which ended in the deaths of 12 students, a teacher and two teen gunmen.

"There were some real mistakes made," Crevensten said.

Now, every classroom in the district should have a copy of their school's emergency response plan, school district officials said. The plans come in flip-chart form, allowing teachers to easily turn to the type of emergency and read how to respond.

In the case of Thursday's drill, teachers and administrators had to follow directions for when a school has an intruder.

Lunch monitor Lamara Lane found herself alone in the in-school suspension room with no key to lock the door after the drill began.

She shut off the lights and crouched against a wall, trying to hide from someone who might come in, she said.

Police officers who entered the room treated her as the potential intruder since the room was not locked, per protocol.

"They told me to get my hands up and put them against the wall," Lane said. "It got my heart pounding. I have a child who goes here. I was really impressed."

Lane also noted the quiet. During a normal school period, she can hear students in other classrooms chattering.

"I was impressed that they could keep their mouths shut," she said.

The drill was not graded. Instead, observers watched the actions, jotted notes and met with school officials to offer recommendations.

At a press conference held after the drill, school Librarian Lyn Ballam said school administrators also took notes. She found a few weaknesses that the school's Crisis Response Team will work to correct.

One is the single phone line in the school's main office. In a real emergency, one line would be insufficient to field calls from worried parents, classrooms reporting missing students and to contact the school's pool, where there are classrooms but no intercom to alert teachers of an emergency.

Ballam also wants to work on what administrators would tell parents who call during an emergency.

"A lot of that is going to depend on what the situation is," said North Pole Fire Chief Buddy Lane, who ran the drill.

Two students interviewed after the drill said they feel safe at their school.

Seventh grader Bobbie Szymd pointed out the North Pole Police Department lies less than a mile from the school.

"If anything happens, they'll be here," she said.

Eighth-grader Anthony Griffin said he feels safe because a member of the school's Crisis Response Team is retired from the U.S. Navy.

"He has military background," Griffin said. "He knows how to get out of stuff."

Before the grant-fueled effort to delve into schools' emergency readiness, some schools kept their plans up to date while others didn't, said Joe Deutsch, assistant principal at Hutchison High School and project coordinator for the grant.

"It was kind of hit and miss," he said.

The federal grant allowed only enough money for one school to conduct a live drill. North Pole was chosen because its plan was among the most well-developed, officials said.

"They were ready," Deutsch said.

Three schools in Alaska have been granted the federal funding since it became available in 2003, according to Crevensten.

The Southwest Regional School District in Dillingham received $98,345 in 2003 for emergency readiness. The Aleutians East Borough School district received $99,994 last year.

Pile said he thinks drills such as Thursday's should be a regular occurrence.

"Hopefully, this will be a routine activity in years to come," he said.
 
Like i voted, youve got to be kidding me.

The way i see it is that all this is going to do is freak out more people.

Dont they have trainging facilities for this?
 
“[M]ore than 500 North Pole Middle School students spent Thursday’s sixth period huddled silently under desks in dark, locked classrooms …†waiting to die, no doubt.

If I had written an article about this ridiculous scenario, I would have at least played it for laughs. What’s that definition of insanity again?

~G. Fink :rolleyes:

I need to buy more ammo.
 
I'm fine with the kids doing the duck and cover, but I'd much rather see the teachers returning fire....
 
Also mixed: Integrated Responses Need Rehearsal but...

A) They're thinking about defending from a Columbine scenario. What they really need to be thinking about is Beslan.

B) Like the TSA, it's all BS and PR until there are trustworthy armed Americans in every aircraft in our skies, and in every school on our grounds.

C) Lockdown is a fundamentally bad plan: You don't want the situation to go static, that will be exploited by bad guys. You want an immediate ruckus, and an evacuation. You want the student body dispersed and running for their lives, not neatly contained and lined up for execution.
 
A really smart murdering idiot like those Columbine dolts who wanted to kill school children would learn from their well-publicized activities.

Waste of money. Non-Factor. In the real world, I'd trust empassioned, armed, law-abiding citizens like the Minutemen over these "professionals" any day.
 
I voted 'Great idea', but just because there wasn't a 'sorta good, sorta bad' choice.

I see this really as no different than a fire drill or tornado drill. In case a school situtation would ever happen, the kids would at least have a little bit to go on.

OTOH, I dunno if a SWAT team clearing a building of kids is a good idea. Also seems like a waste of a class day.

If I were in charge, I'd ahve done a volunteer thing. If you'd like you child to participate, fine, if not, they'll go to the elementary school for the day to work on something else that their teachers assigned.

IIRC, these were performed in my district on off-days, and weekends, with the teachers.
 
Wait a second...

I didn't see anything in the article about parental consent, or agreement from the students. Does the government now have the power to require people to be part of these exercises?

What would our collective reaction be to seeing as a headline:

Citizens Siezed by FBI
Forced to act as Training Dummies
 
I wondered about the consent issue as well. I gotta fill out a permission form for my child to go to the museum on a day trip, you'd think there'd be some sort of parental notification before putting a child into the middle of a training scenario.
 
[yawn]

Citizens Siezed by Fire Department
Forced to act as Training Dummies

... for those who have never been involved in a fire drill in a highrise building
 
a group of determined terrorists such as the beslan bunch would have no trouble at all exploiting these ridiculess "drills". dispite the fact that locking everyone into easily to breech rooms is a bad idea, now the bad guys know exactly what the LEO's are going to do to handle it. seems to me it wouldnt be overly hard to take the place over, and then ambush the swat guys that try to sweep the school, since you know exactly what they are going to do...
 
Lockdown is a fundamentally bad plan: You don't want the situation to go static, that will be exploited by bad guys. You want an immediate ruckus, and an evacuation.

That has been my impression too after the school shootings. I thought it gave the students the best chance of surviving the attack. But after reading this I figured out why they train the students and teachers to cower and hide: it's not about safety, it's about making it easier to catch the bad guy/s. Doesn't sound like a good trade off to me. Note that the actor in this drill "rattled doors", he made no real attempt to get into a locked class room.

We are teaching our kids how to better sheep.
 
We are teaching our kids how to better sheep.

That's been one of my impressions too. I remember after Columbine, there was a wave of drills where students were essentailly taught how to surrender.

I thought to myself, "What're we? France?" :neener:
 
Well, I suppose it is better than nothing. While we might all agree that competent adults in possession of firearms and the ability to fight for their students' lives is far preferable, that is not now the situation, nor is it likely to become such in the near future.

In a place where people are forcibly disarmed, the better tactic is to turn turtle and wait for the cavalry to show up. Although the BGs can cause more mayhem in the meantime, if it really is an effective lockdown, innocent victims are minimized as best as possible. It is the best choice in a bad situation (one made worse through disarmament).
 
the best of that situation would be to require teachers to have training on a weapon, preferably like a ccw type of deal that they are REQUIRED to pack, i light of these recent events, and have it be standard protocal to shoot anybody that trys to gain entry during to the room during a situation like that. at that point the lockdown works for me.

and dont tell me this isnt workable, sure the left will howl at the idea, but after columbine, beslan, and all the other numerous school violence we've had, i imagine comon sense and nessesity would trump thier raving. just make this a requirement to getting your state issued teachers certificate (they do have to be state certified,right? correct me if i'm wrong)

:cuss: :cuss:
 
..if it really is an effective lockdown...

What...badguys don't have shotguns? Crowbars? Fireaxes?

That's the problem. There's no such thing as an effective lockdown in the face of the mere willingness to use a 12 gauge as a universal lock pick. Not unless we want to rearchitect and rebuild our schools from the ground up.

Lockdown is an institutional strategy designed to isolate trouble and keep it from spreading. It works in jails, (often poorly) which have doors that tend to resist breaching rounds, and are in fact architected from the get go for the purpose of segmenting, isolating and controlling a violent and hostile population

For non incarcarative environments, it's a tactic of last resort, appropriate for say, hospitals and nursing homes, where there's a large number of people present with diminished capacities and mobility, cared for by a relatively small staff.

Schools are neither of those.



I'd say, in all seriousness, one main reason they don't go with the "fling open the doors, evacuate in an orderly manner, and then run like hell and scatter plan" is because to do that they would have to fundamentally release control of the kids, which is too alien a concept. 85% of a school's activities, I'd say, are oriented towards managing and controling unruly masses of kids.

Take the firedrill, for instance. One of the key elements of the fire drill is the post evac headcount, to see if anyone's not accounted for, and in need of rescue. They really, desparately want to be able to tell the fire dept how many kids might be trapped.

I'm certain that anytime the run like hell plan is proposed, someone shoots it down because they won't know whether someone's accounted for or not.


Everyone else can do what they want.

I'm teaching my kids to run like hell on their own authority, get clear, and head for home, using whatever means are necessary. They'll live, and I'll enjoy duking it out with the principal after the fact when he or she complains about them not being present for the rollcall.
 
I'm teaching my kids to run like hell on their own authority, get clear, and head for home, using whatever means are necessary.

Make sure they know to watch out for any police response. If the majority of students are "locked down," any kids moving around to get away might be construed as the "bad guys." Now, if the PD takes them into custody and gets them to safety, that's not too bad as their safe and the rest can be figured out later. Just make sure they know not to get mistaken as shooters.
 
Reminds me of when we used to have drills hiding under our desks in case the Ruskies dropped the big one.

Turns out we were safer huddling next to our desks as opposed to under them. :what:

Yes. I agree, there should be several people available at every school capable of immediately returning accurate fire.
 
I'm teaching my kids to run like hell on their own authority

Shhh, don't tell the school board that there are kids out there who are being taught to think for themselves. It scares them. ;)

Seriously, I was thinking about this some more and it occurred to me that this whole lockdown plan relies on the theory that there will always be a responsible person in each room that will have control of the door key, and nobody else will have a key. Do you really think that standard will be maintained for each room on every school day? For that matter, someone planning to attack the school (and they do plan these things) could easily jam the locks ahead of time. And has been mentioned, I think a greater threat is someone taking over the entire school, not “just†shooting as they go along.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they put some thought into this and I understand the desire to be able to quickly sweep the school without having unidentified kids filling the hallways. But to teach people to resist the natural human reaction to flee danger is not only unrealistic; it puts them as close as possible to the danger.
 
Back when I was an elementary school student, I remember that during a fire drill (fortunately, at a DIFFERENT school) some genius decided to add a touch of "realism" to an unannounced fire drll by tossing a smoke grenade in the hall.

Probem is, he used a tear gas grenade instead. :eek:

IIRC, parents, students, and teachers were not very forgiving.

As far as training for Columbine/Beslan attacks, every time I read about "lockdowns" as a response, I find myself thinking . . . if I were still in school and on a 1st floor classroom or lunchroom, I'd be out the window and gone rather than huddling under a desk or table.

No matter what the teacher wanted.
 
The message to me was that the police would take care of everything, not to worry. Never mind that in real life the worst will likely have already occurred.

One of my concerns would be the routine presence of few if any men, some of whom could be packing. Taking nothing away from the ladies, I just don't expect the average teacher of smaller children to be packing a gun and being tough enough to confront really bad situations.
 
If we go back to the original question, I believe it was whether we thought the training was a good idea. Mixed feelings here. The training by the officers is a good idea. Using the children/students is not so good an idea. In my little corner of the world, after the Columbine nightmare, the School Resource Officers (nice name for Cops on Campus) decided it would be a good idea to let the tactical/SWAT teams train in the schools, to get an idea of the layouts, the danger areas, etc. That evolved into "all officers" training, for two reasons. First, teh SWAT team simply wont be on scene as fast as the first responders, and they'll need to know how to react. No one wants to wait outside while the body count climbs. Second, it was simply good tactical training for all officers.

The training was done on non-school days, with no kids around. In a couple of schools, Simunitions were used for real "force on force" engagements. Volunteer bad guys were used, with volunteer hostages.

AS for what to do if/when it happens. Same as I always say...whatever it takes to go home that night.
 
This is the same dubious wisdom that allowed 3,000 murders in a single day. Almost four years later, we still haven’t learned a God-damned thing. :mad:

~G. Fink
 
Lockdown is an institutional strategy designed to isolate trouble and keep it from spreading. It works in jails, (often poorly) which have doors that tend to resist breaching rounds, and are in fact architected from the get go for the purpose of segmenting, isolating and controlling a violent and hostile population

I, and a few othes have been noticing that the newer the school, the more it resembles a prison in both appearance and layout. While most all now have 6 or 8 foot chain link fencing, I'm waiting for the razor wire and secondary layers of fence. I'm also waiting for the time it is deemed to dangerous to send kids home and they build barracks to house them. At least one local district tried to eliminate bag lunches by saying they weren't up to dietary standards. How much further is it until home is not up to "standards".

...if I were still in school and on a 1st floor classroom or lunchroom, I'd be out the window and gone rather than huddling under a desk or table.

Yeah, I like to think that too and an older teen might actually do so, but I think a kid like a 7th grader or younger would probably follow orders of the moment, even if encouraged to run in extreme situations by parents. Unless the danger were right in front of them they'd likely be unsure that NOW is actually the right time and wait for further orders/info until it was either too late or the situation was handled.
 
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