I know which gun is the absolute best.
- Thread starter White Horseradish
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IF..anyone is speaking from experience, great...those of you who arn't, it boils down to this ...SURVIVAL, pull your gun, pull your knife, fight to defend, give up that right, what ever..could of, should have and would have, comes AFTER. It is about SURVIVAL, learning, and hopefully never putting what you learned to test. If it comes down to a fight, then fight like a tiger. Arc-Lite
i dont think the dollar amount of whats robbed from a person should come into the equation. in all the places where battles are still being fought for concealed carry, whats one of the questions always brought up? "does the applicant have a need for a defensive weapon? are they transporting large amounts of cash?"
when you argue that one of hte best means of defense against a violent crime shouldnt be justified because 'theres not enough money involved', you are basically putting a price on the protection of human life.
for everyone who says "gee its just $65, and the criminal said he didnt want to hurt the guy, so its not a big deal", why not put a sign around your neck that says "free money as long as you dont hurt me".
consider what one of the arguments we use when we argue for concealed carry: WE DON'T WANT TO EVER BE A HELPLESS VICTIM.
carrying a gun doesnt ensure that we won't be victimized, but it helps ease our mind, calms us. when we hear about those who are unarmed and become victims of violent crime, don't we try to empathize with them and the feelings of helplessness they describe?
to me, it doesnt matter if i have $600 on me or $6. thirty years ago the advice was to give in to the demands of a criminal, you were most likely to survive if you did not fight back. but the mindset of that generations criminal is far different that todays criminal. back then, there werent as many legal loopholes for criminals to jump through. murder charges were feared back then. nowadays, even hard evidence that a criminal has committed murder or other violent crimes doesnt guarantee that criminal will be punished in the court of law. thats why in this day and age, fighting back gives the potential victim the greatest chance of survival.
now i must go on my lunch break and brave the unspeakable horrors of buying some ammo. wish me luck!
when you argue that one of hte best means of defense against a violent crime shouldnt be justified because 'theres not enough money involved', you are basically putting a price on the protection of human life.
for everyone who says "gee its just $65, and the criminal said he didnt want to hurt the guy, so its not a big deal", why not put a sign around your neck that says "free money as long as you dont hurt me".
consider what one of the arguments we use when we argue for concealed carry: WE DON'T WANT TO EVER BE A HELPLESS VICTIM.
carrying a gun doesnt ensure that we won't be victimized, but it helps ease our mind, calms us. when we hear about those who are unarmed and become victims of violent crime, don't we try to empathize with them and the feelings of helplessness they describe?
to me, it doesnt matter if i have $600 on me or $6. thirty years ago the advice was to give in to the demands of a criminal, you were most likely to survive if you did not fight back. but the mindset of that generations criminal is far different that todays criminal. back then, there werent as many legal loopholes for criminals to jump through. murder charges were feared back then. nowadays, even hard evidence that a criminal has committed murder or other violent crimes doesnt guarantee that criminal will be punished in the court of law. thats why in this day and age, fighting back gives the potential victim the greatest chance of survival.
now i must go on my lunch break and brave the unspeakable horrors of buying some ammo. wish me luck!
I fully agree with that. If you ever pull a knife on me while I'm armed, you'd better cut me good and cut me fast. You'll get at least 2 COM as fast as I can draw and fire. Then, if you're not down and completely still, you'll get 2 more in the head. Now, I'll pay one helluva price, 'cause I don't have a 'permission slip' to carry. But you'll be soooo dead.
Talked to a man in a wheelchair at some length. The topic of why he was in a wheelchair came up.
He and his family had just pulled into their driveway after coming back from dinner, when he saw someone on the other side of one of his vehicles. Thinking the person may have been trying to steal the car, he walked over to confront the person, who promptly stabbed him in the spine.
Turns out it was a neighbor who had just beaten the crap out of his girlfriend and was out sulking. The neighbor claimed in court that he only stabbed him because, in the dark, he thought the husband was a cop.
He served less than three years in jail.
On a side note, I noticed that the husband was not CCW at the time I met him. He was not wearing clothes that would allow it, and while he had a hip pack, he dumped the entire contents out onto my desk. Except for his lack of concern about protecting his family, I was impressed with how well he and his family had adapted to his situation.
He and his family had just pulled into their driveway after coming back from dinner, when he saw someone on the other side of one of his vehicles. Thinking the person may have been trying to steal the car, he walked over to confront the person, who promptly stabbed him in the spine.
Turns out it was a neighbor who had just beaten the crap out of his girlfriend and was out sulking. The neighbor claimed in court that he only stabbed him because, in the dark, he thought the husband was a cop.
He served less than three years in jail.
On a side note, I noticed that the husband was not CCW at the time I met him. He was not wearing clothes that would allow it, and while he had a hip pack, he dumped the entire contents out onto my desk. Except for his lack of concern about protecting his family, I was impressed with how well he and his family had adapted to his situation.
Had this happened to me i wouldnt hand over one cent over to a criminal only the lead out of my pistol, which I doubt he would hang around to recieve.
could of, should of, and would of...all fluff...its about survival guys,real simple, with out the ya buts. Arc-Lite
Social Obligation
I feel like that if you have the means you are obligated to end these guy's streak. You are your brother's keeper.
I feel like that if you have the means you are obligated to end these guy's streak. You are your brother's keeper.
jamz
Member
As far as I know, the term "violent crime" often has nothing to do with any amount of money, even if money is involved. Still a violent crime.
If someone wasnt justified in pulling and possibly using his gun in that situation then it is hard for me to imagine one that would be. Even if they had no visible weapons at least pulling the gun would be justified.
DIfferent states have different rules on retreating. In TN there is no duty to retreat. Nor do I think you have to demonstrate to the jury that you could have escaped using the Jackie Chan jump over the BGs routine. I seriously doubt any DA would prosecute this one unless you ran after them shooting.
DIfferent states have different rules on retreating. In TN there is no duty to retreat. Nor do I think you have to demonstrate to the jury that you could have escaped using the Jackie Chan jump over the BGs routine. I seriously doubt any DA would prosecute this one unless you ran after them shooting.
Cyanide_357,
Let me explain something. I never said that I would not have shot those scumbags! I merely stated that the gentleman probably would have been sued had he shot them. I'm not worried about being sued! I carry millions of dollars of insurance just in case I kill someone with my truck, car, snowmobile, or firearm! It's not as expensive as one would think. I'm not going to lose everything I've worked for just because of the stupid laws in this country protect the criminals and their families. I've been carrying concealed for over 30 years. I know how and when to use my firearm. See this thread, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=116461
Those a-holes in that garage don't deserve to walk this earth terrorizing people like they do. Shooting them is too good. A baseball bat to their knees would be so much more pleasurable, for me anyway, and would surly make them change their ways.
I think this gentleman says it all,
"The responsibility of being armed, should have the wisdom accompanying it, to know when, and when not, to shoot. Arc-Lite"
Riverrat66
Not in New York State it doesn't! If you can escape from your own property instead of killing someone, that's what you are expected to do! Run away, period! Never mind "I've got principles!", never mind "nobody steals from me!" never mind "I'll kill that SOB if he tries to steal 65 cents from me!" If you can run away without getting harmed then that's what the law says you should do, plain and simple. I didn't say I agreed with that BS. I just stated a fact.
Let me explain something. I never said that I would not have shot those scumbags! I merely stated that the gentleman probably would have been sued had he shot them. I'm not worried about being sued! I carry millions of dollars of insurance just in case I kill someone with my truck, car, snowmobile, or firearm! It's not as expensive as one would think. I'm not going to lose everything I've worked for just because of the stupid laws in this country protect the criminals and their families. I've been carrying concealed for over 30 years. I know how and when to use my firearm. See this thread, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=116461
Those a-holes in that garage don't deserve to walk this earth terrorizing people like they do. Shooting them is too good. A baseball bat to their knees would be so much more pleasurable, for me anyway, and would surly make them change their ways.
I think this gentleman says it all,
"The responsibility of being armed, should have the wisdom accompanying it, to know when, and when not, to shoot. Arc-Lite"
Riverrat66
The Rabbi,
In New York State, you better make damn sure you're justified! All our politicians here in NYS are anti-gun, especially Sen. Schumer and Sen. Hilary(Bill's ole' lady).
Riverrat66
Once again, here in New York State, there is a very fine line, It is illegal to display your concealed weapon to scare someone. So, without the presence of a weapon, there is no threat of deadly physical harm! Sounds crazy but that's the law in New York. In fact, a concealed weapon must be that! Concealed at all times! Not worn on your belt exposed or any other place where people can see it! Those are grounds for revocation of your permit. And when they take your permit they take your handguns also! Why? Because all your handguns are registered and listed on the back of your permit. So the police know exactly how many handguns, what kind of handguns, serial numbers, when & where you bought them and all they have to do is knock on your door and say we want your guns and take them, period! And if you don't give them up, they'll carry your entire gun safe out the door. Welcome to New York State. If your neighbor calls the police because you're having a loud argument with your wife, the first thing they do is check to see if you have a pistol permit and if you do, say goodbye to your firearms! Then you go to court and try to get them back which could take months, sometimes even years. I've known guys who have lost their permit simply because they were getting a divorce. All the ex. does is to say, "I'm afraid of him and he's got a lot of guns". Nice huh?
In New York State, you better make damn sure you're justified! All our politicians here in NYS are anti-gun, especially Sen. Schumer and Sen. Hilary(Bill's ole' lady).
Riverrat66
Zundfolge
Member
That equals threat of "death or great bodily harm" ... Lethal force is justified (even in Minnesota)
That equals no ability to retreat ... Lethal force is justified (even in Minnesota)
INSIDE an attached garage is the legal equivalent of INSIDE the house, so the legality of concealed carry is irrelevant ... Lethal force is justified (even in Minnesota).
In reality the thugs would probably have realized that White Horseradish couldn't possibly have enough money to risk their lives over had he simply displayed a pistol ... in which case they would have run away and I doubt WH would have been arrested for pulling a pistol in his own home ... had he shot one or both of them then maybe he would have avoided any extra legal problems since it was inside his home (and if the confiscated his Mak he's lost $160).
Just remember that until the thugs left White Horseradish had no way of knowing whether he was going to survive. Its real easy to armchair quarterback after we've determined whether the thugs in question where just robbers and not murderers.
the fact that it was only $65 is not the issue, after releaving White Horseradish of his money they could easily have beat, stabbed or killed him so his compliance is no guarantee of survival. They might not have been satisfied with only $65 (hell, I almost never have any cash on me, and I've heard of people being harmed because they didn't have "enough" money) Afterward they might have forced him into the house at knifepoint where they could hope to score more money or the services of any female that lives in the house.
So what happens when they pull this crap the next night and their victim isn't as lucky?
Maybe this doesn't apply in New York, but in general, two thugs against one victim creates what the law calls "disparity of force" so when confronted by two healthy, young, strong looking males you can use lethal force without them displaying a weapon because their greater numbers count as a "lethal weapon".
We could dispute this forever. I'm beginning to feel like we're beating a dead horse.
"... survival is the name of the game, what is needed and how to achieve this, depends on that particular exchange. Shooting even a scum bag, requires allot of focus, and has a ton of baggage connected to it. Arc-Lite"
Is this fact or fiction? Is this an actual law or your interruption of something you read? White Horseradish didn't say they were "two healthy, young, strong males". They could have been two dirty, scrawny little drug addicts! There's a whole lot of speculating going on here.
What happens if those "two healthy, young, strong looking males are girls? Is it OK to pull out your gun and start blasting away? "Yes sir officer, they said they were gonna kick my ass, so I pulled out my gun and killed both of them." Just defending myself against "disparity of force".
A few years ago there was an incident in a mall parking lot where two men had a minor car accident at 11 am. A fight ensued and this big guy starts beating the hell out of the other guy. Well the smaller guy draws his 9mm and kills the guy right there in the parking lot. Well the shooter, James Pennington is serving 25 years to life in Attica for protecting himself. Do you know what they told Mr. Pennington in court? You could have run away! Or you saw that this man was irate and should have stayed in your truck and used your cell phone to call the police. No cell phone? Then leave the scene of the accident and go straight to the police station. Do anything to avoid the confrontation, thus no shooting! Oh I might add, the shooter had just gotten his carry permit and I'm sure he had the attitude, "I'm carrying a gun, ain't nobody gonna mess with me!" Oh, by the way, the dead man's wife, who was in the car watching this whole thing, sued Mr. Pennington for major bucks for killing her husband! He owned a very lucrative landscape business at the time. On edit: I thought I'd add that the deadman was a thug, a bully, known to drag people out of their cars and beat them(road rage)! If anybody needed killing he did!
It's not always cut and dry. "I'm the good guy and he's the bad guy. I was justified." Well you may think you were and I hope you're right, for your sake and the sake of all us gun owners. Enough said.
Riverrat66
"... survival is the name of the game, what is needed and how to achieve this, depends on that particular exchange. Shooting even a scum bag, requires allot of focus, and has a ton of baggage connected to it. Arc-Lite"
Is this fact or fiction? Is this an actual law or your interruption of something you read? White Horseradish didn't say they were "two healthy, young, strong males". They could have been two dirty, scrawny little drug addicts! There's a whole lot of speculating going on here.
What happens if those "two healthy, young, strong looking males are girls? Is it OK to pull out your gun and start blasting away? "Yes sir officer, they said they were gonna kick my ass, so I pulled out my gun and killed both of them." Just defending myself against "disparity of force".
A few years ago there was an incident in a mall parking lot where two men had a minor car accident at 11 am. A fight ensued and this big guy starts beating the hell out of the other guy. Well the smaller guy draws his 9mm and kills the guy right there in the parking lot. Well the shooter, James Pennington is serving 25 years to life in Attica for protecting himself. Do you know what they told Mr. Pennington in court? You could have run away! Or you saw that this man was irate and should have stayed in your truck and used your cell phone to call the police. No cell phone? Then leave the scene of the accident and go straight to the police station. Do anything to avoid the confrontation, thus no shooting! Oh I might add, the shooter had just gotten his carry permit and I'm sure he had the attitude, "I'm carrying a gun, ain't nobody gonna mess with me!" Oh, by the way, the dead man's wife, who was in the car watching this whole thing, sued Mr. Pennington for major bucks for killing her husband! He owned a very lucrative landscape business at the time. On edit: I thought I'd add that the deadman was a thug, a bully, known to drag people out of their cars and beat them(road rage)! If anybody needed killing he did!
It's not always cut and dry. "I'm the good guy and he's the bad guy. I was justified." Well you may think you were and I hope you're right, for your sake and the sake of all us gun owners. Enough said.
Riverrat66
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Just because they only brandished a knife doesn't mean they didn't have a firearm. Consider that there are additional penalties for using a gun. Why should they advertise it unless they need to? Reaching for a baseball bat may have given them such a need.
I'd prepare for a repeat performance. Predators return to where they successfully took prey in the past (ask any hunter). Become friends with your new neighbors and cautiously see if they know anything about these two.
Looking back at what intimidation gained them it's not unreasonable to assume they may up the ante to gain more. I doubt you need a permit to conceal on your own property. Be safe.
I'd prepare for a repeat performance. Predators return to where they successfully took prey in the past (ask any hunter). Become friends with your new neighbors and cautiously see if they know anything about these two.
Looking back at what intimidation gained them it's not unreasonable to assume they may up the ante to gain more. I doubt you need a permit to conceal on your own property. Be safe.
In Kansas City they take your $65 and then make sure there is no witness. Robbery in an isolated or concealed area can easily turn into murder. The criminal(s) can get a sense of total control over the victim.
It should be a stair step response:
Two bad guy enters into your home/garage. This is the first big stair step up.
Two guys ask for money, make references to violence and present a knife. This situation has now taken several bigger stair steps up.
You present a 357 and give a clear verbal warning. This is big stair step up.
They can now chose to take the situation up another step or run back down the steps.
If they chose to take it up the next step; BOOOOM!
If they choose to take the situation down then NO BOOOOM!
They gave you some choices and you gave them some choices.
It should be a stair step response:
Two bad guy enters into your home/garage. This is the first big stair step up.
Two guys ask for money, make references to violence and present a knife. This situation has now taken several bigger stair steps up.
You present a 357 and give a clear verbal warning. This is big stair step up.
They can now chose to take the situation up another step or run back down the steps.
If they chose to take it up the next step; BOOOOM!
If they choose to take the situation down then NO BOOOOM!
They gave you some choices and you gave them some choices.
OK. I think I can sum up this thread.
1) We are glad WH survived the ordeal.
2) First rule of gunfight: have a gun.
3) If he had a gun he would have been justified in
a) Drawing it
b) Using it if drawing did not have the desired effect.
4) None of this applies to NY State. What would constitute justified use of lethal force in NY state if this doesnt is beyond me.
5) Get and stay the heck out of NY state!
Did I miss anything?
This puts you in the unenviable position of having to believe the word of a person that has demonstrated themselves to be a violent criminal.
Boy, I don't know what I'd do in a similar situation. But I find it galling that a couple of thugs can rob a citizen of his hard-earned cash with absolute impunity. Where's the justice?
I know which gun is the absolute best.( A Rant!)
The Rabbi,
But if you think New York State is bad. There are many states where there is NO concealed carry allowed at all! Ohio is one of them. Citizens of the state of Ohio are not allowed to carry concealed weapons, period! I think it's a lot of crap. Not only should everyone be allowed to own a firearm but if you qualify, sorry no felons or mentally ill allowed, you should be allowed to carry concealed. I have CCW permits in 4 other states besides NY, so if I travel to those states I can legally carry in those particular states.
The Rabbi,
Most of these stupid laws are because of lawmakers like Sen. Schumer and Sen. Hilary(Bill's ole' lady) and those who came before them. New York City does not help either. No pistol permit is valid inside the city limits of New York City, not even for police.
But if you think New York State is bad. There are many states where there is NO concealed carry allowed at all! Ohio is one of them. Citizens of the state of Ohio are not allowed to carry concealed weapons, period! I think it's a lot of crap. Not only should everyone be allowed to own a firearm but if you qualify, sorry no felons or mentally ill allowed, you should be allowed to carry concealed. I have CCW permits in 4 other states besides NY, so if I travel to those states I can legally carry in those particular states.
Good question! Thanks to the lousy court system and the refusal of the judges to enforce the laws, the criminals know they can get away with just about anything short of murder, and sometimes they do that. Criminals aren't afraid to go to prison anymore. Then when they do, they sometimes have it better inside then they do on the outside. What kind of deterrent is that? Then you have all these do-gooders who are worried about the wellbeing of the inmates. They're concerned that they aren't being treated right or that they're cable TV isn't working! Or the inmates aren't getting enough time to work out in the gym. What! No college degree at taxpayers expense? Give me a break. Sorry, now I'm ranting.
The following comments are not addressed to the original poster, I believe HE understands things perfectly!
I can't BELIEVE this GUTLESS snivelling and whining!
I don't care about the cash!
The simple fact is that if you are willing to let ANYBODY assaut you in your own home,
because of some imagined preconceived idea of the outcome of some imaginary legal process,
you are a coward and a Judas turd of everything that real men stand for.
All you are doing is reinforcing to these scrotes that their current way of doing things is successful. We all respond to experience, it's called "learning". The scrotes are reinforced in their "sucessfull" behavour, next time they'll add a little rape and torture for amusement. Next is murder.
We had something VERY similiar here in the mid-cities areaDallas - Fort Worth metroplex, basically, garage assaults when citizen came home.Fortunately, it seems that vigilant LEOS were able to to identify and arrest the perps, (who happened to be Hispanics.)
No matter, people I know and love were made to fear by the scrotes.
It is no idle macho BS to say that if they invaded my castle, I'd cap their scrote bums in a nano-second.
I will take note of the site names of the cowards who have posted.
I will not anwser any future post you may make. Quite simply, I'm a man, and you are not.
I can't BELIEVE this GUTLESS snivelling and whining!
I don't care about the cash!
The simple fact is that if you are willing to let ANYBODY assaut you in your own home,
because of some imagined preconceived idea of the outcome of some imaginary legal process,
you are a coward and a Judas turd of everything that real men stand for.
All you are doing is reinforcing to these scrotes that their current way of doing things is successful. We all respond to experience, it's called "learning". The scrotes are reinforced in their "sucessfull" behavour, next time they'll add a little rape and torture for amusement. Next is murder.
We had something VERY similiar here in the mid-cities areaDallas - Fort Worth metroplex, basically, garage assaults when citizen came home.Fortunately, it seems that vigilant LEOS were able to to identify and arrest the perps, (who happened to be Hispanics.)
No matter, people I know and love were made to fear by the scrotes.
It is no idle macho BS to say that if they invaded my castle, I'd cap their scrote bums in a nano-second.
I will take note of the site names of the cowards who have posted.
I will not anwser any future post you may make. Quite simply, I'm a man, and you are not.
reply to robbery
if i would have had a gun the knife weilder would be shot and the other beat with the butt stock or a baseball bat . if anyone were to threaten me with a deadly weapon and or on my property.they would regret robbing me what if you let them go who`s next? your grandma ? the mentally handicapped? face it killing them better for your environment
i tell ya stealin rascals are a dime a dozen
if i would have had a gun the knife weilder would be shot and the other beat with the butt stock or a baseball bat . if anyone were to threaten me with a deadly weapon and or on my property.they would regret robbing me what if you let them go who`s next? your grandma ? the mentally handicapped? face it killing them better for your environment
i tell ya stealin rascals are a dime a dozen
I think some of you folks are nuts. I don't know the statistics, but I'm pretty sure that 95+% of the time it's simple robbery, you turn over the money, the bad guys go away, and you live to go home to your family. Overall, it's not a good day, but keep it in perspective.
For those with the itchy trigger fingers, one of two things will probably happen. Either you'll kill the bad guy or they'll kill you. If you "win," your legal adventures are only beginning, and your best possible outcome will be very expensive and disruptive. If the bad guys win, you're dead, and I hope you don't have a family that's counting on you. Now, if you're getting vibes that this a life or death thing, that's a different story, but that wasn't the scenario presented.
Just for the record, White Horseradish is still alive and well. To me, that says he did the right thing under the circumstances. To those of you who seem to be looking for an excuse to shoot someone, I'd suggest trying to get a life--that is, one worth saving. Would you really kill someone over $65?? If so, I'm sorry, but you just plain need to grow up.
For those with the itchy trigger fingers, one of two things will probably happen. Either you'll kill the bad guy or they'll kill you. If you "win," your legal adventures are only beginning, and your best possible outcome will be very expensive and disruptive. If the bad guys win, you're dead, and I hope you don't have a family that's counting on you. Now, if you're getting vibes that this a life or death thing, that's a different story, but that wasn't the scenario presented.
Just for the record, White Horseradish is still alive and well. To me, that says he did the right thing under the circumstances. To those of you who seem to be looking for an excuse to shoot someone, I'd suggest trying to get a life--that is, one worth saving. Would you really kill someone over $65?? If so, I'm sorry, but you just plain need to grow up.
Ivy Mike
Member
if you fear legal action, don't draw your firearm. This doesn't prevent you from fighting back.
A little over a year ago, someone tried to rob me at knifepoint. I fought back and managed to subdue my attacker. The police arrived and he went to jail, and later, to prison. I was cut up a bit and wore a black eye and fat lip for a while. I kept what little cahs I had as well as ID cards that are rather expensive to replace. If the authorities want me to give up my stuff without fighting, they had better be willing to reimburse me for the money I will be out. I don't even want the cash back, just pay me $22 for my lost drivers license, $65 for a new sherrif's card, $35 for a new health card, etc. The only way criminals will learn is NOT to give up and let them have what they want.
The French laid down for germany during WWII. Did this teach Germany to be less aggressive? Nope. The allies had to teach Germany a forceful lesson.
If one of the BG's gets shot, that is his problem. Try robbing a cop with a knife. Tell me what happens then.
A little over a year ago, someone tried to rob me at knifepoint. I fought back and managed to subdue my attacker. The police arrived and he went to jail, and later, to prison. I was cut up a bit and wore a black eye and fat lip for a while. I kept what little cahs I had as well as ID cards that are rather expensive to replace. If the authorities want me to give up my stuff without fighting, they had better be willing to reimburse me for the money I will be out. I don't even want the cash back, just pay me $22 for my lost drivers license, $65 for a new sherrif's card, $35 for a new health card, etc. The only way criminals will learn is NOT to give up and let them have what they want.
The French laid down for germany during WWII. Did this teach Germany to be less aggressive? Nope. The allies had to teach Germany a forceful lesson.If one of the BG's gets shot, that is his problem. Try robbing a cop with a knife. Tell me what happens then.
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