I shot my leg

[Kiln]

I almost shot myself in the leg with a single shot derringer drawing and firing at a possum outside the house. Only mine was due to a worn out hammer assembly on a Leinad derringer. I cocked the damn thing and it went off.

 

[1911Tuner]

It happens all the time. People have ND's with guns despite manual and grip safeties. Most ND's happen with a firing grip. And the one thing in common with all ND's is the person did NOT intend for the gun to fire!

And the other thing in common is the trigger.

I have a friend that I love like a brother, but he has this apparently unbreakable habit whenever he handles a gun. His finger goes to the trigger. He religiously observes the other three rules, but for some reason he can't get past this one. In fairness...if he knows that the gun is loaded, he doesn't do it. If he's carrying one, he leaves it holstered. If he doesn't know, he checks and clears the piece...but his finger eventually winds up on the trigger.

He also trusts me to always hand him an unloaded gun, despite my concerns and my admonitions to never trust anybody and to always double-check. It'll get him in trouble one day.

Whenever I hold a 1911 workshop, I use an old Black Army Colt. One of the first things that I do is to pass the warhorse around for everybody to see...and I watch. I do a quick press-check and hand it to the first one. Out of five people sitting at the table, an average of two of the five will double-check the gun. The others trust. Bad habit to get into.

 

[Odd Job]

When we work to create such trigger actions, we're essentially taking the hammer, sear, and sear spring out of spec. It's fine in the controlled environment of the target range...but not for a street gun.

If I remember correctly, that is how Trey Cooley was killed. Somebody fired two rounds instead of one at a range, and the second one escaped between the roof and wall and killed Trey Cooley who was in another building at the range. They had an interesting forensic documentary on how they reconstructed this "accident" because initially nobody could understand how he had been shot. There was no direct line of fire...

Oh, I found it:

http://www.fmgondemand.com/play/QSY3ZX

 

[1911Tuner]

If I remember correctly, that is how Trey Cooley was killed.

Yep. Anything can happen, and scary light triggers on self-loading arms up the risk...but...very often, whenever somebody is negligent, they want badly to blame the gun or the car or the electric caving knife or the vague wording on a warning label.

Ever notice that whenever an LEO ventilates his leg while reholstering a...I won't say it, but you all know the gun I'm referring to...the official statement is always "Weapon Malfunction." Always.

I've also encountered guys on the range who come to wring out their pistols for the first time after paying through the nose for a first-rate trigger job...and light off the first few rounds before they're expecting it. I saw one lock and load with the pistol pointing at an angle and fired as his finger entered the trigger guard, the bullet striking the cinder block divider. He'd been accustomed to the old pre-travel, and when it was about half what it used to be...bang. He was a bit shocked, and his first words were: "Wow! Now that's a good trigger job!"

Reinforcing my belief that the dividers between bays was the best money that PHA ever spent.

*sigh*

 

[Sport45]

I think there's a a little bit of a reason why lots of people feel ok to carry a sidearm without a safety, whether it be a DA revolver, a Sig, or even a Glock. Or even a SA semiauto like an XD. But not many people advocate condition 0 carry for a 1911.

A DA or SA revolver is fine without a safety. But I wouldn't advocate carrying either with the hammer back on a loaded chamber. IMO, carrying a 1911 unlocked with the hammer back would be about the same thing.

I'm not sure what condition 0 is... Is there a recognized standard for "conditions"?

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't advise Condition 0 for any single action auto, but the 1911 can be carried that way.

The grip safety still blocks the trigger and the half-cock notch is still operational. The manual safety was put there for reholstering while riding a horse...not for constant carry.

In case it got buried in the thread...the first eight prototypes that were submitted to the Army Ordnance Board didn't even have thumb safeties. The US Cavalry requested that a manual, slide locking safety be added. Browning complied, and the rest is history...and in the early 80s, the mantra was born:

"Cocked and locked! The way that JMB intended!"

Unfortunately, that mantra isn't rooted in fact.

 

[shep854]

The consensus (for the Government Model and clones) is:
Cond 0--cocked, mag in, round chambered, with safety OFF ('Cocked and Unlocked'). ie, ready to fire.
Cond 1--Cocked, mag in, round chambered, safety ON ('Cocked and Locked')
Cond 2--Un-cocked, mag in, round chambered.
Cond 3--Un-cocked, mag in, chamber empty. Some call this 'half-loaded'
By elimination, Condition 4 would be un-cocked, mag out, chamber empty (completely unloaded).

 

[gym]

How about condition 2 with half cocked. I leave my bedside gun like that. If I wake up groggy, I feel it's safer to actually pull back the spur hammer. How did the safety get taken off again?
I see "1911 Tuner" answered this in post #75, I would think that also, trigger fingers wander withe some guys, I have seen it many times also, if need be you have to think each time you are about to pull you weapon, "off the trigger" until you need to be on it, if it's not an unconsious act.
If you find that impossible to do, then get a gun with a seperate safety like my backup, lc9, I don't use it but it's there. Also H&K and Sig, along with most manufacturers make such guns.HK 45 sub for instance, has the safety decocker on it, and is a fine weapon.

 

[Rapidrob]

I carried the1911 in war and peace for over twenty years. Several times I have seen an accidental discharge for a variety of reasons.
I equipped my CCW 1911 with the Safety-Fast system. There is no chance of the pistol firing when removing or placing into the holster, or dropping onto the ground, finger in the trigger guard, etc. It only goes bang when you want it too.

 

[X-Rap]

Whenever I hold a 1911 workshop, I use an old Black Army Colt. One of the first things that I do is to pass the warhorse around for everybody to see...and I watch. I do a quick press-check and hand it to the first one. Out of five people sitting at the table, an average of two of the five will double-check the gun. The others trust. Bad habit to get into.

While you make that observation also look for guys like your friend that seem to always find their finger inside the trigger guard. I see a lot of people handle guns in shops and gunshows and am amazed at the number of people that will pick up a handgun with finger in trigger guard and and give it a few bounces as if to feel the heft in the hand. Makes no sense to me but I see it often, usually with older + 60 crowd. Take those same traits and put them on the range or in defense and you have giant problems.

 

[1911Tuner]

X-Rap...I do, and I've seen the same thing. My step father is the world's worst for that and not paying attention to where the muzzle is pointing.

 

[X-Rap]

My dad has that affliction as well and it is painful to admonish him but I do, he was raised in the woods in Northern MN. when they still depended on guns as sustenance an security and was trained as an AP.
I hate to say it but the stats bare it out, gun related accidents are on the decline and I believe it is due to fewer older shooters (can't teach an old dog new tricks excuse) and the rigid doctrine of trigger and muzzle discipline that shooters growing up in the last 40-50yrs have been subject to. The later is good news and I am not trying to paint a whole group in a bad color but there is a statistical/historical correlation that can't be ignored.

 

[JRH6856]

While you make that observation also look for guys like your friend that seem to always find their finger inside the trigger guard. I see a lot of people handle guns in shops and gunshows and am amazed at the number of people that will pick up a handgun with finger in trigger guard and and give it a few bounces as if to feel the heft in the hand. Makes no sense to me but I see it often, usually with older + 60 crowd. Take those same traits and put them on the range or in defense and you have giant problems.

In defense of the +60 crowd, that used to be common practice. When I received my first formal training in shooting a DA revolver in the late 1960's, that is how I was taught to grasp the gun in the holster: finger in the trigger guard, though with finger off the trigger with the back of the finger against the inside front of the trigger guard. But that was just the way I had been shooting revolvers since I was a kid.

Revolver holsters of the day were designed to give access to the trigger guard while the gun was holstered. And remember, revolvers were what were the primary choice, for both police service and civilian SD/HD. When Jeff Cooper began promoting the 1911, the need to keep the finger off the trigger became a rule that was applied to revolvers as well, but old habits are hard to break for some. I started shooting and carrying a 1911 in the late '70s, and it took me a long time to break the habit putting my finger in the trigger guard. Even now I find myself doing it occasionally.

 

[1911Tuner]

I agree...and I'm a member of that older crowd. I have my own father to thank for it.

 

[X-Rap]

In defense of the +60 crowd, that used to be common practice. When I received my first formal training in shooting a DA revolver in the late 1960's, that is how I was taught to grasp the gun in the holster: finger in the trigger guard, though with finger off the trigger with the back of the finger against the inside front of the trigger guard. But that was just the way I had been shooting revolvers since I was a kid.

I agree completely, some of the classic holsters have fully exposed triggers and there is little doubt about the intent of the designers, when I see them today they just don't look right. I would love to get a Three Persons from EL Paso Saddlery but just can't bring myself to do it.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I don't advise Condition 0 for any single action auto, but the 1911 can be carried that way.

The XD is a single action and has no external safety on most models. Carrying an XD is like carrying a 1911 without the safety on.

 

[JRH6856]

The XD is a single action and has no external safety on most models. Carrying an XD is like carrying a 1911 without the safety on.

Except the XD has a trigger mounted safety which the 1911 does not have.

Of course, I have never really accepted the logic of a trigger mounted safety.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Except the XD has a trigger mounted safety which the 1911 does not have.

Of course, I have never really accepted the logic of a trigger mounted safety.

With the grip safety, what's the point of the trigger safety on an XD? With or without one, it's still the same safe as a safety off 1911.

 

[JRH6856]

what's the point of the trigger safety

I sorta wonder that about every pistol that has one.

 

[45_auto]

I equipped my CCW 1911 with the Safety-Fast system. There is no chance of the pistol firing when removing or placing into the holster, or dropping onto the ground, finger in the trigger guard, etc. It only goes bang when you want it too.

Just like a regular 1911, take the thumb safety off on your "no chance" Safety-Fast 1911 and try to stick it in the holster with your finger on the trigger. NOTE: It's going to go bang. Make sure your medical insurance is paid up first.

Same thing applies any time your finger is on the trigger and the thumb safety is off. It's going to go bang if the trigger is pulled. Only thing I've seen that the Safety-Fast system does on a 1911 is make it look like it's not cocked in the holster.

 

[GLOOB]

what's the point of the trigger safety
I sorta wonder that about every pistol that has one.

It's usually a drop-safety, first and foremost. Prevents the trigger from going back if the gun is dropped on the back of the slide. A trigger-activated firing pin block is great and all, but if the trigger moves back due to inertia, the firing pin block is defeated. Yeah, on an XD this is sorta redundant, in a way.

 

[JRH6856]

It's usually a drop-safety, first and foremost. Prevents the trigger from going back if the gun is dropped on the back of the slide. A trigger-activated firing pin block is great and all, but if the trigger moves back due to inertia, the firing pin block is defeated.

So you're saying the trigger safety is essentially part of the firing-pin block safety system and serves to keep the trigger moving accidentally and deactivating the firing pin block?

 

[Averageman]

I carried an issue 1911 for over 20 years and now as a civilian I carry Glock 17's or a 26. I dont know if I am enlightened or what, but I have never had a problem with either.
I have actually slept most nights with a 1911 in a shoulder holster during deployments.
I trust them and I trust myself.

 

[GLOOB]

So you're saying the trigger safety is essentially part of the firing-pin block safety system and serves to keep the trigger moving accidentally and deactivating the firing pin block?

Something like that. If you examine a glock firing mechanism u see that every moving part goes backward to fire. If u drop the gun on the back od the slide all systems would be jarred towars firing. The trigger is springloaded to move to the rear, even. When striker moves back by inertia, the trigger spring and inertia both guarantee the trigger and sear follow, thus disabling the fp block and potentially releasing the now cocked striker. Disconnect does not trip cuz the slide isnt cycled. So theres really nothing else positively preventing the gun from firing. The sear might stop when it hits the angled connector piece. (The point where the glock trigger breaks; it's where the angled connector part diverts the sear downward). Probably not considerint thered be no striker spring force pushing against the sear. So the sear would release and the trigger spring would hold it in the release position until the gun next cycles.

If you disabled the trigger doohickey and tied a string to the striker, you could fire a Glock by drawing the striker back and letting go. The trigger would not only pull itself, but once the sear cleared the striker, the trigger spring would also keep the sear locked back in the fire position until the next time the slide cycles. Replace the string with inertia, and that's why the trigger doohickey is a drop safety. That's just how a Glock works. I'm not sure how the XD works, for sure. I would guess it is similar.

 

[SleazyRider]

And triggers have been activated by safety straps, waist drawstrings on coats, and I'm sure a lot of other things.

How's this for an accident waiting to happen? To remove this .32 Spanish Ruby from its holster, one must put their finger into the trigger guard against the front of the trigger and depress a metal tab!