I shot my leg

[WinThePennant]

.....I would say there are plenty of other designs that would have more NDs.....

I agree.

I love my Glocks, but I think they are unsafe in the hands of most casual users. Why? I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design, and I can see how a casual user could easily screw that up.

Saying that humans should "train more!" or "be safe!" or "observe the [fill in the blank] rules of gun safety!" is nothing more than blather when you consider that humans are, by nature, error prone. And, the SA trigger on most 1911s is simply too light, IMHO.

That said, I like the 1911. I've shot a few, and enjoyed them immensely. But, you'll never see one in my house.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Wally,
It would perhaps be advisable.

 

[JRH6856]

...humans are, by nature, error prone.

I think any gun is potentially unsafe in the hands of a casual user. Why? Because any gun is potentially unsafe in the hands of an experienced user. (see quote) The key is in the hands of.

So yes, people should learn the manual of arms for their weapon, train more, practice more, and pay more attention to the rules so as to hopefully reduce the potential for unsafe action that exists due to human error.

 

[doc2rn]

side safety was on

If the safety was ingaged and it still went off you have a 1911 that needs servicing! Mechanical pieces can and do break, often when we are least attentive. In this instance no one was mortally wounded and thats a good thing.
What you should take away from this is treat all firearms as the mechanically complex tools they are. I would also get a bucket of sand to do my unloading while pointing in a safe direction. In case you decide to keep that particular 1911.
This is yet another reason why I prefer my revolver to my semi-auto.

 

[1911Tuner]

But he'd certainly remember to apply the thumb safety before doing so?

Well...there ain't any guarantees that anybody will remember to do anything at any time under any conditions, Wally...but that's why the safety was added.

 

[Davek1977]

I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design, and I can see how a casual user could easily screw that up.

My Sigma aslo requires a trigger pull to remove the slide, and i don't have nay issue whatsoever with this. If I'm to the point of field stripping my weapon, its chamber has been been checked and likely double and triple checked, both visually and by feel before I'd dream of taking it apart. Guns are not error-proof, nor should they be. People need to exercise the utmost care when handling them. If a person is incapable, they simply should not handle firearms. The fact the trigger must be pulled in order to facilitate disassembly should not cause a moment of concern for anyone who practices and lives by the 4 rules. When i come in possession of a firearm, not a second passes without me verifying its condition, whether it be loaded or unloaded, chambered or not. I certainly don't begin the disaasembly process without doing the same. Humans may be 'error-prone" but if you are so error-prone as to handle firearms in such a manner that it puts you or others at risk, maybe you shouldn't be handling firearms. Multiple safeties and heavy trigger pulls aren't effective safeties, regardless of design. The only safety one can fully trust is between your ears, and if that ones faulty, you have no business behind the trigger....ANY trigger, no matter how heavy or how many safeties one must manipulate to fire it

 

[GLOOB]

I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design

I certainly wouldn't call it a feature. If it could have been avoided, all the better. But compared to the extraneous addition of a decocking button on a Walther PPS or an M&P with a decocking tool stuffed into the frame, I have to say I prefer the Glock method!

Tell me you don't safety check your 1911 before you put your hand over the muzzle to remove the barrel bushing.

A lot of people actually pull the trigger with muzzle in a safe direction as the final part of their safety check. I've seen Hickok45 do this dozens of times, even with a 1911 . I've also seen this as part of "showing clear" at the end of a shooting stage. I've also read an account of this being standard procedure for a certain serviceman before turning in a sidearm in his time with the Air Force. I don't have this habit, personally. But it really shows that pulling a trigger on a safety checked firearm doesn't have to be a big deal, seeing as how some people see it as a GOOD thing and would be doing it anyway. For the final icing on the cake, I bet the majority of us dryfire a firearm more often than we clean one.

 

[1911Tuner]

Davek...Just so. We get into trouble when we get careless...when we forget. This applies to any potentially dangerous implement. Gun...knife...car...chain saw...name it. If it can hurt you, it will hurt you if you get careless. When our attention wanders, all bets are off.

While I don't doubt that some of the things claimed can happen, and have happened...the vast majority of unintentional/unexpected discharges happen because somebody pulled the trigger on a loaded gun. That they didn't realize it or didn't mean to isn't relevant. The gun does what it's told to do. It's a machine.

The other part of the issue is that there are many people who are unwilling or unable to admit that they did something stupid, and will steadfastly maintain that the gun malfunctioned in spite of close examination after the fact...with the gun getting a clean bill of health on all counts.

That's why I ran through a few safety function tests for the OP in order to eliminate the possibility of a mechanical failure...even though a few of them wouldn't have made any difference if the trigger hadn't been pulled.

John Browning wasn't an idiot. The 1911 has redundant safety features, and the likelihood that all of them failed at the same time is so remote that it can be discounted for all practical purposes. Even a manual safety that is unknowingly wiped off in the holster means nothing as long as the trigger doesn't get tickled. This is easily proven by cocking an empty pistol and carrying it around in a holster for a month. At the end of the month, the pistol will still be cocked unless the owner grips the pistol and pulls the trigger. It all comes back to operator error.

In the final analysis, all the safety features of any gun can fail, and the gun will remain stable...unless the trigger gets pulled. No manual safety...not even a long, heavy trigger...takes the place of safe gun handling, and anyone who trusts one to prevent a tragedy is taking a losing bet.

Another mantra...and a good one...is: "The real safety is between your ears."

Bottom line:

"Is gun. Gun not safe."

 

[shep854]

There's also the problem of being distracted and either forgetting or getting critical steps of procedure out of order.
I have a friend (a safety and firearms instructor, no less) who lost a leg when he let himself become distracted while unloading a 12-ga shotgun prior to cleaning.
There's also the classic 'rack slide, drop mag' fumble--magazine safety, anyone?

Point is, NO MATTER WHAT flavor of gun you prefer; if you don't pay attention it will bite you!

 

[Buckeyeguy525]

Wow, Im really glad to hear that it didnt turn out as bad as it could have. I have had an ND myself (personal negligence) and it has definitely made me a better gun owner as I am now OCD about gun safety and checking the chamber. I hope you are able to pull some positives from the experience as well

 

[1911Tuner]

Point is, NO MATTER WHAT flavor of gun you prefer; if you don't pay attention it will bite you!

Absolutely spot on.

At least part of the problem is the fairly recent practice of referring to the gun as: "My new toy" or "My little friend." I think that leads to complacency.

That pistol on your belt isn't a toy and it sure as hell ain't your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake, and should be regarded as hostile whenever you have your hand on it.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

Just a thought.
If that EMT ever gets mugged, robbed or raped. She will join the NRA and buy a mess of guns and promise herself she will not be a victim again.

 

[mortablunt]

^ I always find it shocking whenever a crime victim decides that they won't change anything, let alone protect themselves.

@ 1911Tuner, that's all that really needs to be said period.

Heal up, take away a lesson, and carry on. Maybe de-cock next time before you unholster it at home.

 

[Hammerdown77]

I agree.

I love my Glocks, but I think they are unsafe in the hands of most casual users. Why? I think having to pull the trigger before removing the slide is a bad design, and I can see how a casual user could easily screw that up.

Saying that humans should "train more!" or "be safe!" or "observe the [fill in the blank] rules of gun safety!" is nothing more than blather when you consider that humans are, by nature, error prone. And, the SA trigger on most 1911s is simply too light, IMHO.

That said, I like the 1911. I've shot a few, and enjoyed them immensely. But, you'll never see one in my house.

You know, you say that, but many box stock 1911s come from the factory with a 5lb or greater trigger pull. A Glock has a 5.5 lb trigger pull from the factory. Most people put a different connector in them so that they have a 4.5 to 4 lb. trigger pull. And that's without two external safeties that have to be manually deactivated before the gun will ever fire.

The 1911s issued to our military typically had heavier trigger pulls. Like 6 lbs or greater. The angles of the full cock notch on the hammer were cut such that pulling the trigger actually moved the hammer backward against mainspring tension, making for a heavy trigger pull. This was added for "safety", to keep the sear captive, and to pull it back up under the hammer hooks if the trigger was pressed slightly but not enough to fully release the hammer.

Now, if you start including 1911s that have had trigger jobs to get the pull down to 4 lbs or less in your analysis, that's different. But I still contend that in the hands of someone who understands how to handle a 1911, it is no less safe than any other pistol/revolver.

People putting their fingers on the trigger when they shouldn't, and re-holstering with something in the holster (like a thumb break strap, pull cord from a jacket or windbreaker, etc.) are the number one reasons people shoot themselves in the leg when carrying ANY semi-auto pistol.

 

[allaroundhunter]

But compared to the extraneous addition of a decocking button on a Walther PPS or an M&P with a decocking tool stuffed into the frame

Is the Glock easier? Yes. Is it more prone to an ND because of how it disassembles? Also, yes. And you do not have to use the tool to lower the sear disengagement lever on the M&P, you can do it with your hand. It actually is very fast, and for those who can get careless, it requires you to check the chamber before you do anything stupid.....like pulling the trigger.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hammerdown just touched on something that I've been talking about for years.

With an original spec pistol, the hammer hooks were fairly long and cut undersquare, with a sear crown that sets deeply into the hammer. That results in a hammer that actually moves back a bit past full cock before releasing. You can see it by mounting the gun in a vise...setting up a dial indicator on the hammer...and pulling the trigger.

When we start insisting on match-grade trigger actions on carry guns, we wind up with short, square hammer hooks and an escape angle on the sear that cuts hammer hook to sear engagement down to about .015 inch or less...and then we're surprised to learn that all it takes to fire the gun is a light touch on the trigger. It also leads many to believe that it fired on its ownsome.

It's also required to tweak the sear spring to get the pull down to the level so dear to the high-speed/low-drag operators...which can and very often does lead to the hammer following the slide to half-cock when the slide is dropped during a reload.

Why?

Because when the slide slams home, the whole gun is jerked forward. The trigger obeys Newton's dictum about objects standing still...and the trigger stirrup bumps the disconnect, which rolls the sear out of the hooks...either partway or all the way out.

If it only moves partway out, the square hammer hooks don't try to pull it back in, and the shooter is standing there with a fire control that acts like a double set trigger on a Sharps rifle...and will break with mere ounces of force.

If it moves all the way out, and everything is working like it should, the sear resets and grabs the half-cock notch. If not...it follows the slide all the way down and causes the casual observer to run in circles, screaming about how dangerous 1911s are.

If the trigger smith has also installed a trigger that reduces the pre-travel, the pull distance is shortened even further. All this adds up to a distinct liability on a carry gun.

When we work to create such trigger actions, we're essentially taking the hammer, sear, and sear spring out of spec. It's fine in the controlled environment of the target range...but not for a street gun.

I won't carry one with such a trigger. Not because I can't keep my finger off of it, but because when adrenalin is pumping, I may not even realize that I'm applying pressure to it.

 

[GLOOB]

You know, you say that, but many box stock 1911s come from the factory with a 5lb or greater trigger pull. A Glock has a 5.5 lb trigger pull from the factory.

Agree. Today's "milspec" 1911 generally have a 5-6 lb trigger pull. So let's say the trigger pull is the same weight as a stock Glock. But the Glock trigger is many times longer. This means is takes more work to fire. It absorbs more impact before going off. The loaded 9mm Glock is also around 50% lighter than a loaded 45ACP 1911. What this means is you can put your finger on a 9mm 17/19/26* Glock trigger with a 5.5 connector (empty chamber, please), point the gun down, and yank the gun up/down by the trigger with a loose grip on the frame, and the trigger will not break from the weight and/or a reasonable amount of momentum of the gun. A 5-6lb 1911 trigger will. The average 1911 trigger is less forgiving of unsafe handling, which includes any bobbling of the gun while not adhering to the 4 rules.

*The Glock 21 fully loaded with 230 grainers has a similar weight to a 1911. It does not pass this "test."

Most people put a different connector in [Glocks] so that they have a 4.5 to 4 lb. trigger pull.

Disagree. The vast majority of Glocks come with a 5.5lb trigger pull, and I would put money that the vast majority of these are left stock.

 

[allaroundhunter]

The average 1911 trigger is less forgiving of unsafe handling, which includes any bobbling of the gun while not adhering to the 4 rules.

I agree with this, under one instance: The manual safety on the 1911 is disengaged and the grip safety is depressed. If we are talking just swinging the gun with your finger on the trigger (please don't try this anyone, it breaks several of the 4 rules all at once), then I would say the Glock is less forgiving because the longer trigger pull is its only safety.

 

[1911Tuner]

What this means is you can put your finger on a 9mm 17/19/26* Glock trigger with a 5.5 connector (empty chamber, please), point the gun down, and yank the gun up/down by the trigger with a loose grip on the frame, and the trigger will not break from the weight and/or a reasonable amount of momentum of the gun. A 5-6lb 1911 trigger will.

And...why would anyone do that with a loaded pistol? I mean, anyone who isn't actually trying to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Agree. Today's "milspec" 1911 generally have a 5-6 lb trigger pull. So let's say the trigger pull is the same weight as a stock Glock. But the Glock trigger is many times longer. This means is takes more work to fire. It absorbs more impact before going off. The loaded 9mm Glock is also around 50% lighter than a loaded 45ACP 1911. What this means is you can put your finger on a 9mm 17/19/26* Glock trigger with a 5.5 connector (empty chamber, please), point the gun down, and yank the gun up/down by the trigger with a loose grip on the frame, and the trigger will not break from the weight and/or a reasonable amount of momentum of the gun. A 5-6lb 1911 trigger will. The average 1911 trigger is less forgiving of unsafe handling, which includes any bobbling of the gun while not adhering to the 4 rules.

I see what you're saying, but for the 1911 to fail that test, the thumb safety would have to be disengaged, and the grip safety would have to be fully depressed. I cannot think of a situation in which both of these things would occur, AND the trigger pulled, other than if someone had a firing grip on the gun and intended the gun to fire. If they didn't intend the gun to fire, then they really screwed up somewhere along the sequence of events and the discharge is not accidental.

I carry a Glock most of the time, but I have also carried 1911s. And I shoot them a lot. I can tell you, I am MUCH more confident holstering and unholstering that 1911 than I am the Glock. The reason being, I know if the thumb safety is on, that 1911 will NOT fire, no matter what I might screw up while holstering/unholstering. With the Glock, I am extra super careful when I holster especially, to make triple sure there is nothing in the way before I put the gun in the holster. The reason being even if I held only the back of the slide and put the gun in the holster, it could still fire if something snagged the trigger. Let's say you holster a 1911 that same way, without a firing grip on the gun. You'd have to defeat two external safeties AND pull the trigger for the gun to fire. Not gonna happen.

 

[Certaindeaf]

In another thread here some time ago, one individual likened the various manuals of arms to an automobile.. saying, "I can get in any car and drive it down the road so there!".
What has been said by many and upon many an occasion throughout the years is to become proficient and or one with one good weapon. So often, one hears of hourly, daily, weekly yadda "rotation" of carry pieces of disparate types.
That's perhaps all well and good save for when that clutch reach or grip angle etc. isn't hardwired into the synapses when the "time" comes.
I mainly use two types of handgun but shoot more of course.

 

[EddieNFL]

Saying that humans should "train more!" or "be safe!" or "observe the [fill in the blank] rules of gun safety!" is nothing more than blather when you consider that humans are, by nature, error prone. And, the SA trigger on most 1911s is simply too light, IMHO.

Casual attitudes about training and safety and dismissing such talk as blather is what leads to NDs...not light trigger pulls.

 

[JRH6856]

^^^^THIS!

 

[GLOOB]

And...why would anyone do that with a loaded pistol? I mean, anyone who isn't actually trying to shoot themselves in the foot.

A lot of good points in refute of my previous post. I was just trying to illustrate that the average Glock trigger is not the same thing as even a 5-6 lb 1911 trigger.

I think there's a a little bit of a reason why lots of people feel ok to carry a sidearm without a safety, whether it be a DA revolver, a Sig, or even a Glock. Or even a SA semiauto like an XD. But not many people advocate condition 0 carry for a 1911.

Having the external safety is kinda like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it's there, you might as well use it. If you're using it, you might as well have a "better" trigger than guns without a safety. Hence, 1911's with NY triggers aren't selling like hotcakes.

I cannot think of a situation in which both of these things would occur, AND the trigger pulled, other than if someone had a firing grip on the gun and intended the gun to fire.

It happens all the time. People have ND's with guns despite manual and grip safeties. Most ND's happen with a firing grip. And the one thing in common with all ND's is the person did NOT intend for the gun to fire!

 

[BBQLS1]

Alex, I'm glad you are okay. I hope you heal well. Thanks for having the guts to post up your story.

This should be a good reminder that we handle dangerous objects and if we don't handle them properly, they can hurt us or those that we care about.

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
   
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
   
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
   
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

1911Tuner is 100% right. If the gun is not in disrepair, the fault has to lie with the operator. No ifs, ands, buts, or other excuses about it. Glocks, DA revolvers, Sigs, HKs, 1911s, it doesn't matter, when we get complacent, we can cause bad things to happen. If you don't have the humility to accept this, then you might should stand back and examine if you should have a gun or not.

Alex, thanks again. Like I said before, many people's pride would get in the way of them posting a similar story. Get the gun properly checked out and make sure you polish up on the rules. Thanks for having the stones to share.