I shot my leg

[GLOOB]

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

There's another one that I've never seen except on a badly-fitted safety...and only once. Oddly enough, it was a Les Baer Stinger

I guess you don't watch Top Shot. Former Seal, Jake, managed to accidentally put a 1911 on safe in the middle of a shooting string.

Tex Grebner ND:
My own opinion is that manual safeties (esp with light triggers) lead to more ND's. Here's my theory. The human brain can only consciously do so many things at once. The more steps you add, the more you develop and rely on muscle memory. Muscle memory is dumb. It lumps a bunch of different things together as one, and it doesn't know the four rules. When the situation changes, it might trug along, anyway. Or if you get confused, it might skip or mix some steps. Keeping things simple leaves less to muscle memory and more to analytical thinking.

In other words, when someone has an ND (not saying the OP didn't have an AD) with a 1911, and someone responds with "all you have to do is keep your finger off the trigger," I agree. I also think that doing so is easier when that's ALL you have to do. When you have to do X and Z but NOT Y, then it's easier to screw up.

I have a handgun with no decocker on it, which I have slowly and deliberately practiced decocking hundreds of times. When I am giving it my full attention, it is completely safe. There are only 5 basic steps. And yet when I'm dryfiring it and decocking it without my full attention, muscle memory takes over. And it is often wrong! I've caught my trigger finger on the trigger before the hammer was completely blocked. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but my muscle memory sure seems to look for shortcuts when I'm not watching.

I believe that once things started going wrong, Tex's muscle memory went on autopilot. He had already flicked the safety off, had already started the draw, and now his finger was looking for the trigger, even though it was all out of order.

My friend has had a 1911 for almost a year. Has been shooting Glocks for almost 3. The other day we went shooting, and were both wearing holsters. There was some cans set out, and I was bored, so I suggested some quickdraw shots. I see my friend going for the holster, then stopping. A confused look on his face. I prompt him. "Put the safety on." Ok, click. "Put the gun in the holster." Uh, ok. Done. Ok, I go. Draw, bang, miss. "Your turn." He draws. Takes a two handed grip. Looks at his gun. Takes the safety off. You can see the gears turning. La dee dah. Finally takes aim and shoots. Brilliant to me that he was so careful. But it illustrates that with more going on, it takes more time and effort to use a gun with a manual safety. Your brain has to jive each step with the 4 rules, and figure out how to complete the puzzle, efficiently, and yet without breaking any rules. And in the process you have to make some decisions, many of them somewhat arbitrary, if you think about it. (I can think of at least 4-5 safe sequences in drawing and firing a gun with a manual safety and as many wrong ways. And arbitrary decisions are often the hardest to make under stress.) That is, until you get your muscle memory. One day, he'll have that muscle memory. And he'll be one step closer to an ND.

 

[1911Tuner]

Oh, I didn't say that it couldn't happen. I said that I've never had it happen...nor have I seen it happen except for that Baer...and I've handled a buncha 1911 pistols. Of course, with those heavy batwing safeties, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Extended slidestops have also been known to bounce from inertia and stop slides in mid-stroke. That doesn't mean that it's a common occurrence.

Interestingly, the Stinger didn't do that trick when I fired it. When the lady ran it, she couldn't get through a whole magazine without the safety engaging. It wasn't a full engagement, though. Just enough to block the sear.

And, no. I don't watch Top Shot very much.

 

[1911Tuner]

Tuner: I avoid being a kiss*** but after reading your posts 3 times,
there is only "high road" responses in them.

'Preciate it, sansone...but I'm used to it. You shoulda seen the storm after I suggested that Browning didn't design the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked...and that he intended for the half-cock to be used as a safe carry mode. Hoo boy! That was a ride.

 

[Hammerdown77]

There are a lot of badly fitted safeties on 1911s.

The reason they are a problem is because most people don't understand how a safety is supposed to be fitted, so they don't recognize it as a potential problem.

Also related to the thumb safety of a 1911, anyone who is going to carry a 1911 cocked and locked really, REALLY needs to be educated in their holster selection. There are quite a few holsters out there that do not protect the thumb safety, and if they do, are not indented (or "boned") in such a way as to hold it in the "on" position while holstered. Look for a holster that will protect the thumb safety from being bumped "off". Also, ambidextrous safeties are much easier to bump off than single sided safeties. That makes sense, the right side safety is constantly being brushed by your arm, the seat in your car, or whatever else you might bump into.

Also, with regard to the hammer following the slide and causing an "accidental discharge", well, that would only happen if the half cock notch had broken off, the sear nose had broken off, or you had your finger on or even near the trigger when the slide slammed home. Two of those things are catastrophic parts failures and will almost never happen (I didn't say never, I said almost never). The third is operator error, which makes it a ND, not an AD. I've had the hammer follow a slide on several occasions, on a couple of different pistols. Each and every time, the half cock notch caught the hammer on the sear. And I didn't have my finger on the trigger. No go bang.

From some of these posts it seems there are people who really don't understand how a 1911 works, despite reading about them on forums, owning one or more, or even "working" on them. 1911Tuner ain't one of them. And disputing incorrect information, myths, and falsehoods is not "not being High Road". It's being a service to others who are here to learn.

To the OP, I'm glad you weren't more seriously hurt. Definitely get that gun looked at by a respected 1911 pistolsmith. Not just any gunsmith, someone who knows 1911s. And re-examine your holster choice. It may not be the best for carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Good luck to you.

 

[Ryanxia]

Scary thought. Especially not really understanding where the fault lies (as you said thought your finger was off the trigger) so you can't really determine if it's a mechanical malfunction or just booger hook on the boom stick.
Glad you're ok.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hammerdown...Even a hammer that follows all the way down isn't going to fire a round. The hammer rides the center rail in the slide, and is only released at the last .100 inch of slide travel as it goes to battery. It can't hit the firing pin hard enough to light a primer.

For burst-fire/full auto to occur, two conditions have to be present. The disconnect has to malfunction...fail to disconnect the sear and the trigger...and the hammer has to hold at full cock and get jarred off as the slide goes to battery. A simple followdown won't do it.

Several years ago, I demonstrated the function of the fire control group to a skeptical soul by using a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from a sear crown. Not only did it hold full cock and function normally for over 30 rounds before the hammer started to follow...when it did follow the slide, the butchered sear caught the half-cock notch and a round never fired.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think 90% of (well.. perhaps close enough for me) all coveted .22 pistols are "SA".

 

[Hammerdown77]

Hammerdown...Even a hammer that follows all the way down isn't going to fire a round. The hammer rides the center rail in the slide, and is only released at the last .100 inch of slide travel as it goes to battery. It can't hit the firing pin hard enough to light a primer.

For burst-fire/full auto to occur, two conditions have to be present. The disconnect has to malfunction...fail to disconnect the sear and the trigger...and the hammer has to hold at full cock and get jarred off as the slide goes to battery. A simple followdown won't do it.

Several years ago, I demonstrated the function of the fire control group to a skeptical soul by using a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from a sear crown. Not only did it hold full cock and function normally for over 30 rounds before the hammer started to follow...when it did follow the slide, the butchered sear caught the half-cock notch and a round never fired.

Yessir, you are absolutely right. I should have made the distinction between a hammer following the slide, and a hammer that is jarred loose from full cock after the slide slams home and the disconnector not doing its job. Two different things.

I have had one burst fire on me, and I thought the hammer had "followed". What I came to realize was the combination of a very very short trigger reset, a 3 lb. trigger, and somewhat cold hands had all contributed to the trigger being pressed again the instant the slide slammed home. Pesky inertia! Put one in the ceiling at the range, too. Scared the poo out of me. Not real proud of that one.

But there was nothing "wrong" with the gun. It was just doing what I told it to do, even though I didn't really mean to tell it to fire with the muzzle still pointed in the air....

 

[EddieNFL]

The 1911 is a ND waiting to happen.

Funny how it never happens until someone picks it up. "I didn't know it was loaded! I didn't even touch the trigger! It just went off."

When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

Firearms don't neglect their upkeep, select poorly designed holsters, drop themselves or reach out and grab clothing. All are NDs and responsibility lies with the operator.

I guess you don't watch Top Shot. Former Seal, Jake, managed to accidentally put a 1911 on safe in the middle of a shooting string.

I have witnessed that a number of times. Once the shooter learned the proper hold the problem disappeared.

 

[1911Tuner]

When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

You actually saw that happen...or you're taking somebody's word for it? I'll let you come and bang any of my pistols...and I've got about 40 here...against a wall with the hammer down on chambered round 'til your arm goes numb. Name a day, and I'll put the coffee on.

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I believe the Kahr Auto Ordnance uses a Series 80-type passive firing pin safety. With that design, pulling the trigger releases the firing pin block...and unless it's released, the firing pin is actively prevented from moving forward. Again...are you taking somebody's word for all this mysterious go-bang?

Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

And the trigger still got pulled...whether the operator meant to or was even aware of it.

Note that it happens with Glocks and even Sigs if the pistol is jammed into a holster with something in the trigger guard...like a finger...but with a manual safety that mechanically blocks the sear release, it's just not gonna happen.

Hammerdown...I also arranged a demonstration for the hammer follow claim of burst-fire. I assembled the gun without the sear and disconnect...locked a magazine in with one round...and tripped the slide from lockback. Nothing happened, as predicted.

The guy had me repeat it about 10 times before he was convinced. Some people refuse to believe even their own eyes.

 

[JRH6856]

When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

When a 1911, Mod. 70 Colt carried hammer down on a round is banged against a wall and discharges---who pulled the trigger?

Whan a Kar is dropped and fires when it hits the ground-who pulled the trigger?

Triggers can go off by clothing caught in the trigger guard---no finger in sight. Triggers can go off by something inside a holster, such as has happened several times with the Blackhawk Serpa.

Not one of the above implications is valid. :banghead:

In another thread, there is a discussion of the myths perpetuated by the anti-gun crowd due to their ignorance of firearms. The sad thing is that the ignorance of the pro-gun crowd is often as bad or worse.

It isn't what we don't know that is the problem, it's what we think we know that just ain't so.

 

[EddieNFL]

The sad thing is that the ignorance of the pro-gun crowd is often as bad or worse.

Sometimes, we're our own enemy.

 

[WinThePennant]

Gun forums are filled with stories about 1911s going off. Clearly, they are designed very badly in some respects. I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

If you want a .45 ACP that is SAFE and perhaps the finest pistol ever made, then get a Sig P220. If you don't like the "heavy" initial DA pull, then send it back to Sig and get the Action Enhancement Package.

 

[shep854]

Despite the occasional warmth, this is a great thread--if it causes some honest self-assessment, it's a good thing!

Regarding the Colt Government Model, my first handgun was a Combat Commander. I carried it for a while, until I was unable to give it the dedicated practice I feel is necessary to handle it safely; I have had one ND from trying to lower the hammer, and nearly gut-shot myself (with a Flying Ashtray!) once when I got careless practicing fast draws. THESE INCIDENTS WERE NOT DUE TO THE PISTOL'S SHORTCOMINGS!!! Responsibility was entirely mine; I chalked them up to "expensive lessons learned cheaply". When I carried C&L, I chose holsters that had an under-hammer thumbstrap; I just felt better with that. Nowadays, I pocket carry an S&W M49.

BTW, I have a Kahr/A-O 'GI' .45 that lacks a firing-pin safety; and there's no provision either.

When I read of complaints of 'unreliable, unsafe' GM's, I can't help but wonder at how far makers have wandered from JMB's original creation.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Gun forums are filled with stories about 1911s going off. Clearly, they are designed very badly in some respects. I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

If you want a .45 ACP that is SAFE and perhaps the finest pistol ever made, then get a Sig P220. If you don't like the "heavy" initial DA pull, then send it back to Sig and get the Action Enhancement Package.

Gun forums are also filled with people who probably ought not to be handling firearms

 

[1911Tuner]

Gun forums are filled with stories about 1911s going off.

Gun forums are filled with all sorts of stories. One of my favorites that I hear occasionally is the 1911 that blew up because it fired out of battery. Couldn't have been a double charge. It must have been the gun. But, when a full understanding of how the gun functions...or more precisely understanding what the gun can and can't do...you can respond with the facts. That being that the pistol won't fire far enough out of battery to blow up. It's mechanically impossible.

Clearly, they are designed very badly in some respects. I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

If that's your belief, you're welcome to it, and nobody is going to change your mind...but there are literally millions of 1911 pistols being handled...and handled roughly...every year, without incident. I maintain that if they were that dangerous, the shooting public would have abandoned them years ago. The carnage would have been horrendous.

Gun forums are also filled with people who probably ought not to be handling firearms

Clearly...

 

[EddieNFL]

I like 1911s, but they just are not safe firearms.

Well, I won't post my first thought, but the second was, why on earth would a rational person "like" an unsafe firearm? That defies logic.

I carried it for a while, until I was unable to give it the dedicated practice I feel is necessary to handle it safely

"A man's got to know his limitation." Unfortunately, many blame their limitations on inanimate objects.

 

[ScottieG59]

I have had a few "almost" moments to be reminded how easy it is to have a negligent discharge.

I carry Glocks primarily and I am very careful about reholstering.

I have been carrying concealed for over 30 years and I am still careful.

I hope you get past the confidence issue. Professional training may help. People often do not notice what they do wrong and other eyes will help.

 

[shep854]

Actually, the main reason I got away from my Commander was that I went to pocket carry. Should I start holster-carry again, it will get a lot of practice, then back on my belt...I LIKE the GM.

 

[EddieNFL]

...but there are literally millions of 1911 pistols being handled...and handled roughly...every year, without incident.

When I was active we had a saying,"Ninety percent of your problems are caused by ten percent of your troops." No different in the firearms world, I guess. Most make a conscious effort to be safe. Others, not so much, or try to "buy" safety. Unfortunately, a idiot with a 1911 will be an idiot with (insert brand here).

 

[GLOOB]

I maintain that if they were that dangerous, the shooting public would have abandoned them years ago.

Nah. They've been grandfathered in.
It's like a stick shift car. I can drive em just fine. Did for years and i prefer them where possible. But they're just not as easy for most uninitiated to learn. Not saying that a 1911 is inherently dangerous. Im just saying that if you hand a thousand random people a loaded handgun and ask them to take it home and play with it for a day u might get more unintentional discharges with the 1911 vs some other designs.

 

[ball3006]

Dumb ass.......

.................................................................................as Red would say.....chris3

 

[EddieNFL]

Im just saying that if you hand a thousand random people a loaded handgun and ask them to take it home and play with it for a day u might get more unintentional discharges with the 1911 vs some other designs.

Maybe JMB had a secondary role in mind for the 1911: cleansing the gene pool.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Im just saying that if you hand a thousand random people a loaded handgun and ask them to take it home and play with it for a day u might get more unintentional discharges with the 1911 vs some other designs.

.....I would say there are plenty of other designs that would have more NDs.....

 

[wally]

they realized that a man under stress might forget to...wait for it...here it comes...might forget to remove his finger from the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster

But he'd certainly remember to apply the thumb safety before doing so?