I want a rifle in 6.5 ... but factory or custom build?

[Legionnaire]

I have decided that I want a high quality rifle in 6.5mm and have narrowed the field down to 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington. This thread is NOT to help me decide between those two cartridges. Rather, I'd like some input on the best way to get what I want.

My goal is a general purpose rifle that has the accuracy to punch paper or pop varmints to 1000 yards, but not be so heavy as to only be useful from a fixed position; I'd also like to use it for intermediate game, including deer. I think I'd like an intermediate-weight fluted barrel to balance stiffness against weight; I'd like to avoid wandering groups as the barrel heats up under slow (not rapid) fire. I'd like the barrel threaded for a suppressor, and would welcome input on the optimal barrel length for the 6.5s. Stock the same way; I don't want a heavy tactical stock that one is only comfortable shooting prone--but it needn't be a traditional hunting stock, either. Maybe something like the McMillan A3 Sporter. I want 1/2 MOA accuracy with handloads.

But I don't know whether I want a factory built gun--something like a Cooper 54 Phoenix or a Tikka T3 Sporter--or a complete custom build. I'm willing to pay for what I want, but I'm not sure what I want: high-end factory-built, or a custom build? As additional background, I own several Remington 700s and am familiar with that platform; if I go custom build, it would probably be on a 700 action ... but I'm open to other suggestions. I am certain there are some experience-based opinions here on the board.

For the sake of discussion, let's put the budget at $3,500 for the rifle without optics or suppressor. I'll make it a poll. If you vote "factory," give me a recommendation of something to look at. If you vote "custom," I'd welcome suggestions as to who might do the build. Thanks!

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Custom, for no factory will give you exactly what you want, they may get close, but nothing will beat a rifle made to your exact specifications. Im on my first custom build right now that is being built by Circlewood Gun Shop right here in Duncanville, Alabama. But if you do not have a local shop, there are numerous shops that will do it. GAP, APA, SAC, Long Rifles Inc., Surgeon, and Spartan Rifles are just a few custom builders that have an excellent reputation.

Warning, do not buy from Tactical Rifles, they are just bad business, google TacticalRifles.net and Snipershide.com and you'll see.

Definitely go custom, especially with a price tag like that. Factory rifles are good, but they are not YOURS.

 

[ROAshooter]

6.5

CZ offers some really nice rifles in 6.5....

 

[taliv]

if i were doing that today, i would use one of 2 builders:

Wade Stuteville in OK
Robert Gradous in GA

But I'd only recommend them if you are going to take their advice.

I've used both multiple times each in the past and been more than 100% satisfied.

Mark and the whole SAC team were in my hometown shooting a match this past weekend. They are good dudes and good shooters and build good rifles.
Robert Snyder (RWS) was also at the match and he builds quality stuff too. (in fact, he's got a lefty 338lm action in stock that's calling my name right now... so tempting)
I've had several GAP rifles too and they are great guns as well. and I see them at almost every match too.

You've got lots of choices in builder. Don't shop based on price. (although you may shop based on quoted delivery times as some will be next month and others will be 9 months backlogged) My advice is to call around and build a relationship with one of them. Ask for their advice and get to know them. They all have different opinions and they like to work with different actions, barrel makers, etc. Listen to their advice.

There are always hundreds of custom rifles for sale on snipershide. i think most of them that sit there for sale for years are there because the guy who ordered it had no idea what he was doing and asked for a completely ridiculous configuration that nobody else wants. at least, when i browse through there, I am constantly thinking, "ok, that config is stupid. and that one. and why would anyone do that??" waste of time and money that could have been avoided by getting good advice.

that is one reason people are almost always happy with GAPs and Surgeons. Surgeon only makes a couple of configurations and they work. they don't really do "custom" work (they're an expensive factory rifle). And though GAP will build anything you want, they have a few standard models that are very well thought out and extremely popular. If you don't know what you're doing, buying a crusader or hospitaler, for instance, is a very safe bet. And you'll be able to sell it later.

after you have thousands of rounds of experience and know EXACTLY what YOU really need, then you can get something truly custom.

 

[taliv]

btw, i'd recommend reading this thread http://forum.snipershide.com/sniper...s/185807-new-gap-extreme-hunter-6-5-saum.html (ignore the noise... it's 50 pages long for a reason...)

good example of a rifle config that is already sorted out and sounds about like what you want. you don't have to tell them what geometry to use on the feed or ejection ports, or what options on the stock and bottom metal and recoil lug and bolt handle to make sure everything fits and functions properly, etc.

 

[USSR]

Too bad you didn't mention 6.5x55 as a possibility. I have a lightly used, Terry Cross built, Obermeyer barreled 1,000 yard F Class rifle that I would consider parting with.

Don

 

[Legionnaire]

Thanks, taliv; that's the kind of direction I was hoping for. I have the luxury of time at this point, so I can take the time to do the research.

 

[Kachok]

There are several really good 6.5mm rifles on the market, Tikka, Sako, Savage, Browning, Ruger.......no reason to go out and spend stupid money for a custom one.
Savage 11 Long Ranged hunter would be a good bet, can be had in 260 or 6.5 Creedmore. 9lbs is no featherweight but considerably lighter then a benchrest gun, about the same weight of an old Model 70.
No such thing as optimum barrel length on a cartridge like that, they continue to gain speed even through a 30" tube, but past 24" the gains shrink considerably. Alot of the Match 6.5s I have seen use 26" barrels.
Don't pass up on a good 6.5x55 they do everything the new comers do and are stupid easy to load for. I would put my 6.25lbs Tikka against any of these new breed of long range hunting rifles for accuracy.

 

[taliv]

No such thing as optimum barrel length on a cartridge like that, they continue to gain speed even through a 30" tube, but past 24" the gains shrink considerably.

that doesn't match my experience.
with both Reloader 17 and H4350, shooting berger 140 VLD and hybrids, my 260AI starts losing velocity after about 26". my 28" and two 29" barrels were all slower than my 25" and two 26" barrels. I just put the 7th barrel on and went with 25" again. All 7 are bartlein 8.5 twist.

308win does seem to keep speeding up to 30" and my 260AI is based on a 308win case, just smaller neck and ackleyized, so roughly same powder capacity. i don't know why there is a difference, but there sure seems to be

 

[js8588]

What about the Ruger Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor?

 

[Laphroaig]

I'm not recommending them because I've never used any of their products, but seeing as your from W. PA maybe you could give E. R. Shaw a looksee? They have expanded their services recently to include custom rifles. They have also opened a retail store in Bridgeville which I have driven past but never stopped in. I plan on doing that soon. You could at least inspect their products in person as well as ask questions.

Check out their website:

http://www.ershawbarrels.com/sps-the-mk-VII-rifle.php

You can "build" a rifle from several options of components. I see they have both calibers that you mentioned as well as fluted barrel options.

Laphroaig

 

[Legionnaire]

Thanks, Laphroaig. I had forgotten about E.R. Shaw. Are you familiar with Liberty Arms in Elizabeth? They are another local custom builder and gunsmith.

http://www.libertyarmsgunsmith.com

 

[Legionnaire]

taliv, tell me a bit more about the .260 AI. Is forming brass as easy as firing a .260 Rem in an AI chamber? I assume one uses a lower pressure charge to reform the brass? I've been reloading for a while, but have never fire-formed a case modification ... Is there that much added benefit to the AI?

 

[T.R.]

I commissioned a custom 6.5mm Swede rifle for my wife. The action came from a Browning. The rifle is as perfect as one could hope for but was not cheap. If I could go back in time, I would've bought a 270 and had the stock modified to fit her.

Another custom rifle I paid to have built is a Winchester 670 rebarelled to 9.3mm X 62. This one is a genuine keeper!

Custom rifles are the way to go if you seek a particular chambering, stock type, checkering, etc. Not cheap but you'll enjoy the end product.

TR

 

[taliv]

yep, it's that easy. some people use a pistol charge and cream of wheat or something. the sierra hotline guys told me to use max load for parent cartridge (i.e. 260rem) so that's what i've always done.

it's a little faster than a 260rem. you have to fire form, but after that i've never had to trim. so i think as far as case prep, it's an advantage in the long term

i start with 243win brass and neck up to 260 then fire form. 6.5CM is a great caliber. hornady brass isn't lapua, but it's good enough. and you can get decent factory ammo if you want. if you go with 260rem, your brass choices are anything from rem, win, hornady, lapua, etc. but you will want to pick your brass before you build the rifle, as the case necks vary greatly in thickness so different reamers are used.

 

[itsa pain]

that doesn't match my experience.
with both Reloader 17 and H4350, shooting berger 140 VLD and hybrids, my 260AI starts losing velocity after about 26". my 28" and two 29" barrels were all slower than my 25" and two 26" barrels. I just put the 7th barrel on and went with 25" again. All 7 are bartlein 8.5 twist.

308win does seem to keep speeding up to 30" and my 260AI is based on a 308win case, just smaller neck and ackleyized, so roughly same powder capacity. i don't know why there is a difference, but there sure seems to be

Taliv you are experienced enough to know that all barrels are different in the same length and caliber even from the same maker and will throw bullets at different velocities

 

[chaser_2332]

I would second what all taliv has to say. Custom is the way to go and he has mentioned some great builders.

 

[taliv]

speaking of people who show up to matches... congrats on the top 5 finish chase! dang impressive showing considering how strong the field was


oh, and i would have included Terry Cross that USSR mentioned in post 6, but to my knowledge Terry is busy doing LEO guns and hasn't taken an order from the general public in several years. He also makes my fav stock, the Sentinel

 

[USSR]

oh, and i would have included Terry Cross that USSR mentioned in post 6, but to my knowledge Terry is busy doing LEO guns and hasn't taken an order from the general public in several years.

Yeh, taliv, almost immediately after Terry finished my rifle he stopped taking commercial orders due to all the SWAT team rifles he was making. Real nice guy. I spoke with him and Boots on several occasions during the build. Boots is quite the character. Waited almost a year to get my barrel from him. He made my 6.5 at the same time as he was making one for himself.

Don

 

[Kachok]

that doesn't match my experience.
with both Reloader 17 and H4350, shooting berger 140 VLD and hybrids, my 260AI starts losing velocity after about 26". my 28" and two 29" barrels were all slower than my 25" and two 26" barrels. I just put the 7th barrel on and went with 25" again. All 7 are bartlein 8.5 twist.

308win does seem to keep speeding up to 30" and my 260AI is based on a 308win case, just smaller neck and ackleyized, so roughly same powder capacity. i don't know why there is a difference, but there sure seems to be

I would chalk that up to individual variation in barrels, my 7mm-08 is shooting 140gr almost as fast as my 7mm Rem Mag, is that normal.........no way, I just have a fast barrel on my 08 and an usually slow one on my magnum.
No expert on the 260, I use a slightly larger case and full house loads of slower burning RL22.
I saw a test once where they used the same barrel and just cut off an inch at a time, even the modest 308 was still loosing speed cutting it from 30 to 29", food for thought.

 

[taliv]

when all 3 longer barrels are slower than all 3 shorter barrels, individual variation in barrels is an unlikely explanation. i have the 7th and 8th barrels on rifles now and will hopefully be shooting them next week. i'd bet money they will make 5 short barrels that all have about the same velocity.

as i said in post 9, i am aware 30" barrels are faster in 308, but cannot explain why there is a difference.

 

[Kachok]

6.5s are exceptionally efficient but I doubt they are so much so the that they exploit their full potential in a short tube. Post your numbers and we shall see. Like I said I shoot a slightly larger case capacity but from everything I have seen 26"+ is the way to go for top speed. I am shooting 140s in a 22" tube at just under 2800fps depending on the projectile in question with 46.5-47.5gr of RL22. Best accuracy is a draw between 46.5gr and a 140gr SST and 47.2gr of the same powder with a 140 Deep Curl (I only shoot hunting bullets), both average right at .30 MOA but thus for I have only been hunting with the SST and have been impressed with the results on game.

 

[USSR]

While I have no experience with short barrels in 6.5x55, my 28" Obermeyer with 48.0gr of RL22 is good for 2925fps with 142SMK's or 139gr Scenars.

Don

 

[MtnCreek]

btw, i'd recommend reading this thread http://forum.snipershide.com/sniper...s/185807-new-gap-extreme-hunter-6-5-saum.html (ignore the noise... it's 50 pages long for a reason...)

good example of a rifle config that is already sorted out and sounds about like what you want. you don't have to tell them what geometry to use on the feed or ejection ports, or what options on the stock and bottom metal and recoil lug and bolt handle to make sure everything fits and functions properly, etc.

Impressive barrel life!

 

[StrawHat]

As much as I enjoy my custom rifles, a Winchester Featherweight might satisfy you until you decide exactly what you need.