Captcurt
Member
If you are going to list the CZ as cheap you might as well add the Remington 700, Winchester Model 70's. the 84 Kimber Hunter, most of the Savages, and the Bergara B-14. Not cheap.
I'd like your finest, cheapest cigar...
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CapnMac
Member
Yes, the above applies.
Come to cases the Savages are only about $100 more than Ruger Americans, and with $100 better stocks (we could argue about how nice the RAR trigger is out of the box).
Come to cases the Savages are only about $100 more than Ruger Americans, and with $100 better stocks (we could argue about how nice the RAR trigger is out of the box).
Have you ever actually smoked a cheap cigar? There's a good reason the better ones are
pricier. Be careful not to save too much money, OP, or you may find that the "cigar" is
"smoking" you.
That said, I would be even more careful with the optics end of things. A cheap rifle with a
good scope is going to shoot better than a good rifle with a cheap scope.
pricier. Be careful not to save too much money, OP, or you may find that the "cigar" is
"smoking" you.
That said, I would be even more careful with the optics end of things. A cheap rifle with a
good scope is going to shoot better than a good rifle with a cheap scope.
2ndtimer
Member
Just got a Cabela's flyer in the mail. Savage 12FV on sale for $319.99, offered in .308 Win and 6.5 Creedmore. Best long range bang for the buck available, IMO.
CoalTrain49
Member
A Weatherby Vanguard is a Howa 1500 action, trigger and barrel. The stocks on a Vanguard are just as cheap as a Howa stock. Nothing special about a Vanguard except the price.
T3 is a little different.
someguy2800
Member
A Weatherby Vanguard is a Howa 1500 action, trigger and barrel. The stocks on a Vanguard are just as cheap as a Howa stock. Nothing special about a Vanguard except the price.
I don't recall handling a plastic stock vanguard but the wood stocked ones are very nice rifles.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Mine has the old McMillan poly stock and it is pretty nice- but the trigger was terrible out of the box. Mines a late 90s production though, very happy with it now.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Well, I just bought a new-old-stock Remington 700 SPS Varmint (26-inch heavy barrel) in .243 for $390. It is going in a Grayboe stock, but I suspect it would have done just fine in its original tupperware.
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cdb1
Member
A Weatherby Vanguard is a Howa 1500 action, trigger and barrel. The stocks on a Vanguard are just as cheap as a Howa stock. Nothing special about a Vanguard except the price.
Vanguard synthetic stocks are not as cheap as Howa synthetic stocks. If they have the same trigger Howa upgraded recently to the trigger used on the S2. Standard Vanguard barrel is 24" vs 22" on Howa. There are differences, as a rule Vanguards are nicer. I haven't checked, does Howa come with a sub-MOA guarantee like the Vanguard? Is Legacy Sports International customer service in the same league as Weatherby?
CoalTrain49
Member
Unfortunately Weatherby is reluctant to discuss the details about the Vanguard other than the fact that Howa builds the rifles "to their specifications" whatever that means. They look the same to me except the stock. I don't know anything about LSI's customer service or Weatherby's for that matter. Sub MOA? I think that's a claim that Weatherby makes using their ammo. I don't think Howa makes that claim but they are very accurate rifles. I own two. Never owned a Weatherby but I looked at them before I bought my two Howa's. I decided they were pretty much the same rifle except Howa has more configurations with barrel weights, actions and cartridges. I bought a Howa on a closeout from Cabelas for $340. I've never seen any deals like that on Weatherby.
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NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Weatherbys C/S is top notch, don't know about Howas.
You are using 1950's thought processes to compare 21st century products. There are several ways for those God-awful stocks to easily out shoot old school technology. At one time the accuracy of the rifle was largely dependent on a good fit between metal to a stiff rigid stock. All that is completely irrelevant with several modern designs. There are a lot of $300-$400 rifles out there using modern manufacturing techniques that will easily out shoot any of the old school designs. Short of a $2000-$3000 custom you won't find any production rifles that shoot better than most of the budget rifles. Maybe as good, but not any better.
The Ruger American uses metal V blocks between the stock and action. There is no part of the action or barrel that ever comes in contact with the stock. It can be as cheap and flexible as possible, it has nothing to do with the rifles accuracy. The only function the stock serves is something for the shooter to hold onto while carrying and shooting the rifle.
The Savage Accustock uses the same principle as do some others. Many use an aluminim chassis with the cheap plastic molded around it for rigidity.
Blkhrt13
Member
Shhhh don't tell them. They can't handle the truth. Wood stocks look better and carry an air of class but they cause more issues than they resolve. A good bedding job isn't cheap and with out one it can turn even a good rifle into a bullet chucking lost cause. A few of the new cheapest have that issue sorted. It took me a minute to do the research to figure it out. Plus you can count on synthetics to hold shape through a wider range of humidity and temperature.
cdb1
Member
CoalTrain49 said:
Not true.
CoalTrain49
Member
Ok, factory match ammo.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the hardware is the same and the 1500 is pretty much the same rifle as the Vanguard.
I've never shot a Vanguard but I can assure you the two stage trigger on the new Howa 1500 is excellent, along with being able to shoot very precise groups.
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69Precision
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jmorris
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Means one of two has less stringent specifications, also likely means the other sells what would otherwise become scrap. Kind of like diamonds or to keep it gun related glass, if you have a lense that is less than perfect for your "top shelf" line of optics you can either throw it in the trash or to not have the labor and materials become a total loss add an additional product line, not unlike VXIII, VXII and VXI scopes.
Not a new concept, Kingsford Charcoal was created by Henry Ford because he wanted make money on the wood left over from making the interior of his automobiles that wasn't "good" enough to go into them.
In any case the Weatherby trigger on the sub-moa I have wasn't that great when I took it out of the box but wasn't that difficult to adjust and test, no "modification" needed so keep the stones and polish put up, just adjustments to the already existing adjustment points.
cdb1
Member
Put a Vanguard and a Howa side by side and it is easy to see which rifle has the best fit and finish. The synthetic stock on the standard Vanguard S2 is quite a bit better than the standard Howa stock, unless things have changed in the last year or so.
someguy2800
Member
Whenever you have one factory building two product lines there is always an assumption that one product line is where all the good ones go, and the other gets all the crap. For example I have a Mariner motor on my boat, which is a twin of a Mercury. My father in law tried to tell me that Mercury was the good one and the Mariner is full of cheap parts. Thats simply not true, every part in the motor is the same part number and interchangeable. Same thing goes for my Makita chainsaw which is a rebranded Dolmar, the only difference is the color of dye used to mold the covers. My father in law is a Vanguard fan and he tried to tell me the same thing about howa's. That is really not how modern manufacturing works. I can guarantee there is nobody at the howa factory inspecting and sorting out parts between the howa's, weatherby, mossberg, and smith and wesson rifles that they build. There may be additional polishing steps or whatever for different product lines but they will be building one product one day, and the other in a separate run using the same sourced parts.
CoalTrain49
Member
That's laughable. Weatherby knows how to build excellent rifles but they can't build a rifle for the same price that Howa can. If they could they would. I've read that Weatherby had some input on the design of the Vanguard which probably has something to do with the Howa rifles we can now buy. But the fact remains that the tooling and manufacturing processes is Howas alone. They've been building rifles for a very long time.
If you think Howas rifles are just scrap barrels or actions that don't make the grade for a Vanguard you haven't shot a new Howa lately. I have an HBAR varminter that will shoot with any Weatherby.
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blue32
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Used Ruger and Savage rifles with dbm and plastic stocks show up on the used rack for very reasonable prices. I suppose most will do sub moa with a little work at the loading bench. I went that route and was pleased, although I sprang for an aftermarket laminate stock because I prefer the look and feel.
brewer12345
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Heh, actually the finest, cheapest cigar bit is a Simpsons quote. We all know that there is no such thing, at least in an efficient market. OTOH, I have wanted a snub 38 for a while but could not justify spending the money for a variety of reasons. Since you can now buy a Taurus 85 for $200, I did. This is not a well-regarded manufacturer, but thus far I have been impressed with the revolver. As an added bonus, it is cheap enough that I do not really care about holster wear, etc. from carrying it and if I manage to shoot it out so be it.
I was wondering if the same thing might be possible with a rifle in today's market. I bought a Tikka T3 in .30-06 for elk hunting this fall and topped it wither a Weaver scope. I like wood stocks so I bought one with a cheek rest wood stock. The thing shoots tiny groups with non-Remington factory shells (I probably will never buy another box of Core Lokts ever again). But it is a touch more expensive than what I would regard as "cheap" and .30-06 is not exactly a range toy caliber. Thus my question.
splattergun
Member
The Howa 1500 action is made in Japan. It has been used as the base for decent rifles by several manufacturers including, but not limited to Mossberg (I own one of these and it shoots <MOA) and Weatherby. YOu can also buy a Howa 1500 barreled action and build your own gun with your favorite stock and optics.
jmorris
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Not laughable, logical. If you have two different specifications, it's only reasonable one will be more stringent than the other. I didn't even make a guess as to which one was more or less so, just made an observation on your assumption that "their specifications" are different than Howas.
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