Idea: A comprehensive clash of the levergun carbines test

[Jason_W]

Lately I've been itching to do some ballistics gel tests again (not that I can afford to but that doesn't stop me from planning). One idea I have for a mega-test is to pit at least three lever action carbines against each other to see how they perform at ranges from 25 to 100 yards. Tested loads would include factory and handloads across all bullet weight ranges, both cast, jacketed, and all copper/exotic.

I was thinking .357 mag Vs. .44 mag Vs. .30-30 would be interesting. If such a test has already been conducted, I'd love to see the write up.

 

[barnbwt]

Get an 1886 or other in 47-50 in the mix along with an 1887 12ga, too, in the interest of being comprehensive . "Comprehensive" might be asking a bit much considering the multitude of lever guns made in the latter half of the 1800's, but those five would probably be a good roundup.

One of these days I'll get around to an 1886, but for now I'm useless to you

TCB

 

[Jason_W]

I'll go with fairly comprehensive or reasonably comprehensive, then. A 12 ga slug vs. .45-70 test would be an interesting investigation in and of itself.

I'm not sure that stacking the .45-70 against the reviolver cal. carbines and the .30-30 is quite fair, though. Especially with modern loadings, the .45-70 will blow the other three out of the water in terms of both penetration and "wound" channel size.

 

[WestKentucky]

True but 45lc would be very fair.. My thought would be to use 2 loads in each of the following (average factory ammo and the hottest safe reloads the gun will handle...as in just short of pressure signals) which will show what each normally does and what it's capable of. Try it in 38spl, .357 mag, 41mag, 44 spl, 44 mag, 45 colt, 7-30w, 30-30, 35rem, 444 marlin, 45-70, 20ga and 12 ga. This will show us exactly what these guns can do both in energy and trajectory which will make it easier to pick one for pursuing the game of choice...whether that game be literally a game you play or wild game you plan to eat, either one would have useful data. All rounds should be shot over a chrono with a minimum of 20 rounds and show SD data as well as averages. Bullet wights and ballistic coefficients would need to be know.

 

[Jason_W]

True but 45lc would be very fair.. My thought would be to use 2 loads in each of the following (average factory ammo and the hottest safe reloads the gun will handle...as in just short of pressure signals) which will show what each normally does and what it's capable of. Try it in 38spl, .357 mag, 41mag, 44 spl, 44 mag, 45 colt, 7-30w, 30-30, 35rem, 444 marlin, 45-70, 20ga and 12 ga. This will show us exactly what these guns can do both in energy and trajectory which will make it easier to pick one for pursuing the game of choice...whether that game be literally a game you play or wild game you plan to eat, either one would have useful data. All rounds should be shot over a chrono with a minimum of 20 rounds and show SD data as well as averages. Bullet wights and ballistic coefficients would need to be know.

That would be an interesting project, but the budget would have to be enormous. The gel budget to do 20 trials of each round at three different distances would be in the thousands of dollars.

 

[WestKentucky]

I hate gel tests. Strictly look at energy available. Bullet design varies and each will do its own thing with a given amount of energy. Whether you want a bullet to explode on impact or not even deform is insignificant because swapping bullets will allow you to make drastic performance swings without effecting other factors very much. Build off of energy and you get a good comparison of potential.

 

[Jason_W]

Awww. But gel tests make such pretty pictures

 

[barnbwt]

So do FEM and CFD simulations, but by themselves they're practically worthless

TCB

 

[Jason_W]

FEM and CFD? I'm not familiar with those acronyms.

 

[Eb1]

Out of the original three posted the 30-30 would be the winner hands down. For hand loading the .357 and .44 would be the easiest, but the .30-30 can be loaded down for fun and young kids use. Like loading the 125 grain FNHP to 2100 fps is a fun, but still able to kill deer to 75 yards load for wifey's and young kids.

Putting the 444 Marlin, .45-70 and 12 gauge slugs into the same boat as the three mentioned is just apples to oranges. Might as well throw my 336 Marlin 475 Super Mag conversion in there too.

 

[Jason_W]

I think you'd be surprised at the kind of wound a hot loaded .44 mag from a carbine can inflict inside 100 yards. The .30-30 would start to win past 100, I would think.

 

[Eb1]

For all intent, no more than a .431 jacket or hollw point from my muzzleloader. I can't wait to see how the 77/44 is going to pan out.
I bet my 475 Super Mag does pretty good too. But the 30-30 shouldn't be in the same category as the others. It is a rifle cartridge. Not a pistol cartridge from a rifle.

 

[Ed Ames]

Gel gets expensive but I wonder what sort of test protocol could be written up to share out the job in a cost effective way? I.e. "follow these steps and report back these measurements."

I would be moderately curious to see how my chosen pistol caliber (.454 Casull) lever gun stacks up, but it isn't on your list. If there was a standard protocol I could follow I could run the testing myself and share back numbers that (because everyone is folowing the same procedure) should be usable for comparisons.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

There is a website called something like ballistics by the inch. It has lots on velocity for lots of various calibers and weights as the cut the barrel down inch by inch for a tc contender. It's not quite what you would be doing but is interesting and kind if related. While you are at it, toss a 45-70, 35 rem into the testing so you round out the popular calibers.

 

[Jason_W]

For all intent, no more than a .431 jacket or hollw point from my muzzleloader. I can't wait to see how the 77/44 is going to pan out.
I bet my 475 Super Mag does pretty good too. But the 30-30 shouldn't be in the same category as the others. It is a rifle cartridge. Not a pistol cartridge from a rifle.

One of my assertions is that people get way too hung up on the whole "real rifle cartridge" thing, especially inside 100 yards. For example. a 240 grain .44 bullet can be propelled to around 1800 f/s MV from a carbine. The bullet will slightly edge out a 150 grain flat nose bullet from a .30-30 in terms of energy at 50 yards. At 100 yards, the energy figures are still ahead of .44 in this case is still ahead of the .30-30. The .30-30, of course wins the trajectory game and outshines the .44 past 100 yards, but a majority of deer in the US are taken inside 100, so that point is moot. Any hunter expecting to regularly encounter shots past 100 yards wouldn't choose a .44 or a .30-30.

If I can ever conduct my project, my expectation is that I would find that there is little practical difference in terminal performance of the two rounds out to 100 yards, but the .44 will carve wider permanent cavities and penetrate deeper with certain kinds of bullets at close, surprised bear, ranges.

 

[Eb1]

Well. A hand-loaded 125 grain FNHP moving at 2550 fps from my 20" 30-30 will do more damage than a 240 grain .44 Magnum bullet inside of 100 yards, but we could go on and on all day about that.
The .308 caliber will penetrate deeper than the .431 caliber, also. And by the way. I have killed deer easily out to 220 yards with my .30-30 since I was 10 years old. I now hunt with a .25-06 so it is a moot point, but a man with one rifle can do a lot with it. My neighbor has never hunted with anything other than a .30-30 for deer and larger, and he has made some incredible kills past 200 yards.

 

[svtruth]

MMout's well throw in the .454

and .45lc loaded to "ruger only" pressures
Anybody check Box o Truth?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I'd also love to see some relatively definitive long term durability reports across the range of firearms currently available.

What breaks, what to stock for spares, difficulty of repair... all the things it takes to get a lifetime of shooting out of the modern offerings as one used to get from Win/Marl/Sav levers.

I wonder. Is this in fact generally already known due to cowboy action activities?

 

[Jason_W]

The CAS guys would probably be able to give you a great overview of the durability, maintenance, and repair quirks of various lever actions. Since I'm not much of a competition guy, I doubt I would shoot any gun enough in a lifetime to make any weaknesses manifest, unless they were flat out factory defects.