Idea for a safety modification (1858 Remington)

[Wwalstrom]

Several weeks ago, I found an original conversion cylinder for sale. I don't remember if it was for a Colt, Remington or ... Instead of 6 bolt notches in the cylinder, it had 12 bolt. Apparently, the extra 6 were intended for locking the cylinder while the hammer rested between two chambers. I'm actually considering adding one notch, so there is one "double-safe hammer in the safety notches" carrying position. What is the consensus of the group on this idea? On a side note, would anyone know the CAS implications? In other words, would it be a legal modification?
See picture:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/Wwalstrom/1858RemNA-SST/060624-01b.jpg

Thanks!

P.S. - I made another attempt at making a brass front sight for my stainless 1858, haven't taken any pictures yet, but I should have some taken and posted by next week.

 

[sundance44s]

Might not be a good idea to cut more notches there / see how the lock up bolt drags around that part of the cylinder ? It would probally catch on those notches you add ......Just my thoughts ... never tried it ...

 

[Wwalstrom]

Bolt Dragging around cylinder ...

If the bolt is dragging around the cylinder ... doesn't that mean the timing is off? The bolts on both of my 58's don't pop up until they are just about in line with the cylinder notch.

 

[Tommygunn]

This type of safety was used by the Leech & Rigdon .36 revolver the CSA used. It was also used by other revolvers which were usually "knock-offs" of Colt designs. It's a good idea, and it works. But given the notches milled on to Remmies cylinder shoulder, it's probably a little over-kill.

 

[DaveP (UK)]

Looking at your pic I have to ask, What would you gain?
There's a safety notch for the hammer just above the site of the proposed "excavation" which prevents the cylinder from rotating!
If you cut the extra notches everything would have to be extraordinarily accurate to avoid conflicts over which lock up is going to "bite" this time and there would seem to be a possibility of stalling the action.

Thinking a bit more as I sit here, as you point out yourself, the cylinder bolt shouldnt be just a spring loaded pop-up. So how would you cause it to lift into the new slots?

 

[Wwalstrom]

Bolt Actuation

The bolt appears to pop up when the hammer is forward. When you pull back on the hammer, the cylinder turns and the bolt drops down when you get to half cock. Then, just before full cock, it pops up, and the cylinder should stop turning. The scratches on my cylinder(s), as near as I can tell, are caused by placing the hammer in the safety notch.

I'm probably gonna hafta study it some more ... but I DO KNOW, there ain't a whole-lotta material keeping the hammer in the safety notch!

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Wwalstrom,

I am puzzle by the statement that there is not a lot of material holding the hammer in the safety notch. IMHO, the Remington safety notches are very safe and it is impossible for the cylinder to turn when the hammer is in a safety notch. Further, the Remington notches stand up better against abuse than the safety pins on the Colt, which are often found flattened (and not even present on most repros).

I would see no advantage to going to a Manhattan system with 12 bolt notches.

Jim

 

[Tommygunn]

Looking at your pic I have to ask, What would you gain?
There's a safety notch for the hammer just above the site of the proposed "excavation" which prevents the cylinder from rotating!
If you cut the extra notches everything would have to be extraordinarily accurate to avoid conflicts over which lock up is going to "bite" this time and there would seem to be a possibility of stalling the action.

Thinking a bit more as I sit here, as you point out yourself, the cylinder bolt shouldnt be just a spring loaded pop-up. So how would you cause it to lift into the new slots?

Lowering the hammer gently, by thumb, allows the bolt to rise up into the slot. You would have to hold the cylinder by hand to assure the bolt actually enters the slot.
This system was used on some C&B revolvers back then.
As noted, the problem here is the Remington already has the notches in the heel of the cylinder.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I once shot BP cap-n-ball in CAS, then switched to cartridges and converted a Remmie. I found that in both the BP cylinders and the conversion cylinders, one out of the six chambers was always the one that threw a round out of the tighter group. So with the BP cylinders, I removed the nipple from the offending chamber and marked it, so I wouldn't use that chamber, AND I had a place to rest my hammer (you only load 5 in CAS). With the Remmie, I removed the pin and the retaining screw on the out-of-pattern chamber, so again I had a spot to rest the hammer, with only five chambers allowed to be loaded in CAS. So..., such a mod seems unnecessary, and a waste of money, as you have to leave one chamber empty anyway.

LD

 

[DaveP (UK)]

Lowering the hammer gently, by thumb, allows the bolt to rise up into the slot. You would have to hold the cylinder by hand to assure the bolt actually enters the slot.

I dont have it to hand just now (And I can feel a screwdriver and fireside session coming on!) but what I was thinking about was the way in which the boss on the side of the hammer controls the bolt.
When you cock the action the bolt unlocks by half cock and re engages at full cock after the hand has advanced the cylinder. If you then release the hammer slowly the cylinder stays put... and I havent a clue if the bolt moves or not! But surely the fact that the cylinder hasnt moved is enough of an obstacle.
It's interesting to find out that a 12 notch system has been used in the past, but I imagine that the whole action would have been, well, different! In the present case it seems that the best result you could hope for would be a safety system that still has to be engaged by fiddling about, and I wonder, will the cylinder still automatically release at half cock?
Wheres me tool box?...

 

[Tommygunn]

On the Remmington, take the cylinder out, and notice how the bolt moves as you retract the hammer. This is a good way to understand how the mechanism works.
It also works on Colts, and other SA revolvers.

 

[Jim K]

Well, the Manhattan and some other percussion revolvers have 12 notches in the cylinder, with the intermediate notch being the safety notch. It locks the cylinder between chambers so the hammer can't contact a cap. The action is no different from the Colt action. You just pull the hammer part way back, turn the cylinder by hand to the mid-way position and lower the hammer. Cocking the hammer for firing is normal except that the cylinder only rotates half the ordinary distance.

You can try it with any SA revolver, including the cartridge SAA, which was often carried with the hammer down between cartridge heads, allowing the carrying of six rounds in safety.

Jim

 

[DaveP (UK)]

I've just re read the original post on this thread... oops! I managed not to grasp that the proposal was for a single safety position and I was trying to visualise something that would lock up between every shot if required - bit of a tall order really!
As a single double safe position, yes, I could see some point to it. It would be necessary to line everything up by hand and then come down from half cock. I think you would gain a degree of additional safety. With a standard gun if something snagged the hammer spur and lifted it a little the cylinder would be free to turn and a later bump could jar the hammer down on a live cap. If the bolt was engaged as well the hammer would need to be lifted nearly to half cock to release it - much less likely to happen. It would work, whether it's worthwhile - up to you!
Sorry for mistaking your intentions

 

[Wwalstrom]

DaveP

Yes, that's what I meant ... a SINGLE "double safe" position. Some may think me (forgive the language) "anal", but I AM a Certified Minnesota DNR Firearms Safety Instructor!!!