IDPA gripe!

[Eric F]

Well once again IDPA rears its ugly head to handicaped shooters. My cousin in MI shot IDPA and there was a wheel chair bound shooter that shot faster and more accurately than any one else but due to stage set up he finishes last.

One stage in particular required prone shooting, cant exactly do that from a wheel chair.

Another was shoot from box then "step" into another box to shoot. Procedural was given because he didnt step into the box. HE cant.

I have seen this happen in person too. some say your not helping by not penalizing. I say its unfair to judge these people by standards set for "normal" people.

Just a thought.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I have seen this happen in person too. some say your not helping by not penalizing. I say its unfair to judge these people by standards set for "normal" people.

IDPA usually tries to present stages that one might encounter in a defensive situation.

Do you believe that a home intruder will present only "handicapable" scenarios to their victim?

There are other shooting sports but this one is intended to be more closely aligned with "real world" defensive situation.

If "winning" is all that matters take up one of the other shooting sports. Someone who is shooting IDPA and being true to the sports intention is not interested in "winning".

I notice that you are not the "victim" of this so called injustice, you are insulted FOR this guy? Did you talk to him? Is HE unhappy with this?

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.

 

[DWARREN123]

It's like life, not always fair!

 

[jmorris]

We have a shooter that also requires the use of a wheel chair; we do what we can to accommodate (i.e. Shoot around a barricade instead of through a high port, sitting vs. prone, etc). How many times have you heard a lefty (or right) handed person say “the guy that came up with this stage must have been “X” handed”? You can’t make everyone happy all of the time. If your buddy really wants to game it towards his reality, have him MD a match and bring out an extra wheel chair, that will even the odds. If he is just frustrated that his physical limitations are keeping him from 1st place, stationary shooting sports would better for him.

 

[Eric F]

IDPA usually tries to present stages that one might encounter in a defensive situation

exactly he will never get a chance to shoot some one out of a high kitchen sink window. or from over a dutch style door. These are just 2 of the examples I witnessed. They gave him a procedural for shooting around instead of through the window or over the door. If that is all you can physically do its not gaming up the sport its being realistic. All I am saying is the sport should not penalize a person if they are using cover and making the hits. Winning has never been the issue because these type folks are not going to move from position to position very quickly.

Do you believe that a home intruder will present only "handicapable"scenarios to their victim?

well yes, because anything that happens would be "handicapable". He would still shoot from where he could not stand up and shoot uver obsticles or go prone shoot and run to the next room. He would do all he was capable of doing from his chair I would think.

If your buddy really wants to game it towards his reality, have him MD a match and bring out an extra wheel chair, that will even the odds.

he has said this several times in jest but maybe that would be the ticket. I think it would be good fun.

 

[Justin]

I've heard it said that the basis of action shooting sports isn't primarily about shooting, it's about solving the problem presented to you as best you can.

At least, that's true for IPSC and Multigun. This guy solved the problem in the best manner that he could, and giving him procedurals for failing to commit actions that he is physically incapable of doing is ridiculous.

If the guy is in a wheelchair, that has to factor into how he solves the problem, and attempting to force him to use the same solution as everyone else is just patently idiotic.

 

[XDKingslayer]

A wheel chaired person is certainly not going to solve a real life shooting problem by jumping out of the chair and going prone or stepping from one arbitrary box to another.

Neither is a healthy person...

 

[ny32182]

I certainly appreciate what IDPA was meant to be: a competition with real world carry gear. Unfortunatetly I still feel there is much more "gaming" gear and tactics allowed than there has to be (and there *must* be some level of that present of course), but that is neither here nor there... obviously the line has to be drawn somewhere and few people are going to be completely happy with its exact location.

When I shoot IDPA, I'm not there to win the competition, I'm there to practice with my real world carry gear. IWB holster. Bone stock G19. Full powered ammo. Concealment no matter the weather, including my normal daily attire: a buttoned or golf/polo type shirt. *That* is why I am there.

Others are there to win the game: Every bit of their gear and clothing is set up to maximize their speed. That is what they are there for. Fine with me. They just have a different goal than I do.

In short, I'm only competing against myself. Regarding the guy in the wheelchair, that is what he should be doing. Does he want to win a game, or does he want to practice defensive type shooting skills as it applies to him? If the former, this game is not for him. He will have to find a different one. If the latter, why does he care if he gets a procedural for shooting from a sitting position rather than prone? The scoring penalty doesn't affect his ability to acheive his goal.

We had a guy in an electric wheelchair shoot at our club for a while. I honesty don't remember what sort of scoring they did for him.

 

[GEM]

Around here, you can ask the match director for a dispensation in such circumstances before the match.

However, is the purpose to win or have fun shooting. If the shooter got something out the match shooting the way they best could - did the match not serve its purpose.

I shot a local match with a 642 as I just wanted to shoot that gun in a match and get some practice with it. Not to win.

If I can't do a stage correctly because of my bad knees - that's just life.

 

[skinewmexico]

And I wish that when I get in a shoot out I will have mags staged around the mall when it happens, like some IDPA stages.

Never seen one of those. Plus a stage like that would violate the IDPA COF design rules.

 

[Eric F]

However, is the purpose to win or have fun shooting

Does he want to win a game, or does he want to practice defensive type shooting skills as it applies to him?

In talking with him He already knows he cant win just based on time moving from shooting positions kills his score. But he has no qualms about complaining when there is a position where you are required to shoot from with no other alternative. Such as the shooting prone through the "cat door" built into the bottom of the house door. That stage was just silly to be but fun. for him it resulted in a no shoot target and a procerural. As the main door was just a wall of card board with the door drawn on it. I guess what the real issue here is the local club. He could really care less about winning or loosing but for what ever reason getting procedurals for non compliance gets him every time. BTW he does will some stages like the non movement stages and such. Just unfortunate circumstances I guess.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Procedurals were designed to make "gamers" follow the rules; in other words, skipping some procedure in order to make your time faster would result in a procedural. Since the guy in the wheelchair is not skipping a procedure to gain a competitive advantage, giving him a procedural is just ludicrous. Expecting him to go to prone is idiotic and poor training given his handicap. What a bunch of idiots. It's for those same reasons that I've given up competitive shooting; stage managers following the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

 

[Justin]

...stage managers following the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

Agreed. It's an indication of a lack of common sense if you ask me.

 

[creekerdoug]

I've been a competative shooter for many years and a IDPA Safety Officer for serveral years and I've never, ever, given a procedural penalty to a truly disabled shooter. I've also never seen a S.O. with much experience or much common sense who would ding a wheel chair bound shooter because of movement issues on high or low shooting positions.

I've been an S.O. for shooters with everything from wheel chairs, artificial limbs, morbid obesity and leg braces. They fact they have enough courage to actually come out and shoot a match in public when so very many healthy and able bodied people don't means they get some extra consideration on my stage.

Treating folks with physical problems or new or inexperienced shooters the same way you treat a 20 something Master Class shooter (who is quicker than a rattlesnake and faster than an antelope) is a great way to discourage the weak, new and inexperienced. I'm pretty sure that's not the way to grow the sport........

Any S.O. who discourages any shooters should probably not be running stages.

 

[Jim Watson]

Typical Internet IDPA Bashing.

As I recall, USPSA has a provision for "penalty in lieu of course requirement" that would affect a disabled shooter in much the same way as an IDPA Procedural for someone physically unable to get into a given position. Saw it applied only once; a USPSA stage started in a bathtub and two shooters too fat to fit the tub.

 

[Morgan]

Penalties should only be applied if the shooter gains a competitive advantage.

 

[JohnMcD348]

As a person looking in from the outside, I've never shot a IDPA or any other type match before so I can't really comment on how the rules are structured, but, Like other posters have mentioned, amd from my limited understanding of it, the idea behind these types of matches are to get close to real world situations.

The reason behind this is to present problems and obstacles, barracades, cover, concealment issues and you are timed in your ability to present your firearm and make hits on targets. That is part of the judgement of how well you negotiate the problem and find the solution to get around it. If you can't shoot over it, you shoot around it, if you can't shoot around it, you shoot over it. If you can shoot over or around it, then if you must, you shoot through it. I kinda think it wouldn't be right to penalize someone who obviously cannot stand and manuever the same as you or I but is capable of the same level of markmanship and skill. If anything, he would qualify for a deduction of time due to his quick ability to come up with other resolutions to a problem no one else has been presented.

And before, anyone picks this post, no I do understand how unsafe it would be to actually shoot through a cover area during a tournament.

 

[Eric F]

And before, anyone picks this post, no I do understand how unsafe it would be to actually shoot through a cover area during a tournament.

Well I missed a steel plate from a position durring a 3 gun match, When I transitioned to another area I could still see it but the way the rules were you had to shoot through the baracade of pallets at the new position, I had no shot from where I was ir had to shoot through the pallets to hit the steel, it took 4 shots and some serious guess work but I got it. Some places encourage shoot throughs others dont.

 

[pwrtool45]

IDPA is just a bunch of guys that can't make it in USPSA

And USPSA/IPSC are just a bunch of guys who can't hack Bullseye. What with all that sloppy shooting and racket making.

I think some guy named Brian Enos said something about members of one shooting sport ragging on members of another shooting sport. It was real edifying. He might have even written in down in a book somewhere. Maybe you should read it sometime.

 

[JoeSlomo]

giving him procedurals for failing to commit actions that he is physically incapable of doing is ridiculous.

Agree 100%

Sounds more like a MD problem than an IDPA problem IMO.

 

[solvability]

So, as I see it a handicapped guy is handicapped by his handicap - who woulda thunk it.:banghead:

 

[Jim Watson]

Suppose you want to be Mr Nice Guy and not apply that 20% (USPSA) penalty to somebody just because he couldn't assume an awkward position. So it turns out he is a good shooter if he doesn't have to crawl like that and wins the match? What are your other competitors going to think and say about that? Have we got the proverbial level playing field? Or did you overcompensate in search of P.C.?

 

[madmattmd]

Jeez, its' this type of "Us vs. Them" (insert your choice of shooting sports) garbage that keeps interested parties from trying either sport (IDPA vs USPSA, Sporting Clays vs Trap, Bullseye vs Action Pistol).

How about, "Shut up and shoot what you want?" It serves no purpose in denigrating another sport/activity. You just end up being another Jerk with an “opinion.”

Why not grow up and play nice?

Now, back to the original question about accommodating handicapped shooters ………………………………..

Matt

 

[JR47]

It seems amazing to me that neither sanctioning body has addressed the handicap situation, even if only in broad terms. It would appear that BOTH are guilty of that error.

Gamers are going to use whatever rules are in place to direct their choices, and move away from real world responses, to gain any legal advantage possible. USPSA only makes that painfully obvious. It's occurring in IDPA at the same rate. So what?

Neither is anything more than what you, the shooter, make of it. Let's stick to the OP's question.

In lieu of appropriate direction from the National group, it would seem more appropriate to discuss the problem with the local Board, and seek their direction. Posting on an Internet Forum, rather than trying to see what's really happening at the level of management available, is fruitless.

 

[Hoser]

This is NOT a thread about IPSC vs IDPA.

I deleted many posts here.

Keep it civil.