If an officer asks if you have guns in the car....

[Ukraine Train]

Say you're involved in a routine traffic stop and the officer asks if you have any firearms in the car. If you say yes, does he have the authority to check them to make sure they're being transported correctly (unloaded in trunk with action open, etc.)? Or would it be one of those volunatry search situations where you don't have to consent to a search?

 

[R.H. Lee]

A followup question: If you decline to answer, would that give the aforementioned LEO 'probable cause' to search, and anything he found would be admissable in a court of law????

 

[Beren]

Why would you even have to answer the question?

"I'm sorry, officer, why was I stopped? Would you like to see my license and registration or may I be on my way?"

"I asked, do you have any firearms in the vehicle."

"I have nothing illegal of any kind in my vehicle, officer. May I please ask again why I was stopped?"

In my case:

"Officer, I have a license to carry firearms and currently have one at <location>. How would you like me to proceed?"

 

[armoredman]

Check the laws in your state on transport - if you have a CCW permit, more than likely one of the items in law is that you MUST disclose the fact you're carrying to a law enforcement officer during intial interview. Also, if you do not have a CCW permit, CHL, or whatever you call it, does your state require firearms to be carried in your vehicle in a certain way?
Here in AZ, you are required to disclose the fact of your permit to an offcier during initial interview. If you do not have a permit, you should disclose if you're carrying open, and he doesn't notice - but it is NOT required.
Also, we do not require certain types of storage for firearms, as long as they are in a holster, scabbard, or case designed for the carrying of a firearm, or as I do, in the trunk wrapped in a blanket going to and from the rifle range. if you have a loaded AK hanging in the rear window of your truck, it's legal, or a loaded M1 Garand in a case behind your seat. Legal.
LE can do what's called a Terry stop, or Terry frisk, which is driver and general location of the driver, meaning all areas the driver can reach unaided, from the drivers' seat. Items may be temporarily confiscated for officer safety for the duration of the interview, and unloaded, but if not illegal, will be returned to the individual at the conclusion of the interview. They may NOT be seized for any longer than the interview, unless the individual is placed under arrest.
Anyone else want to chime in?

 

[why_me]

NO permission to search?

No such thing. If you dont give permission to search. They probably will anyways.

 

[cslinger]

My take on things.

There are bad cops.
There are bad laws.

That being said most LEO's are good folks who get to deal with the crap of society day in and day out. Many times a little bit of common courtesy can go a long way. So were I to be asked I would simply answer truthfully and the reason I was carrying them. I wouldn't volunteer the information but as long as the LEO was being respectful I will be respectful back. For all I know his buddy could have just been shot or shot at and now this guy is paranoid...as I would be too.

The great majority of all of my interactions with LEOs over the years have been polite, friendly and uneventful.

I think one has to walk that fine line of defending ones rights to the very core while at the same time realizing when it is more of a human to human courtesy issue.

All that being said I have a carry permit so the first thing I am saying is "Officer I have a TN handgun carry permit and I am or am not carrying a weapon. The permit is in my wallet with my license how do you want to proceed."

Understand that traffic stops are not routine and every one of them does and should provide at least some level of pucker factor for the LEO. There are a lot of dead cops out there because of traffic stops gone bad.

I find it's a good rule of thumb to always take a second to look at situations from the other guy's view.

Sorry I am not as hardcore as some folks but I have friends who are officers and have worked with them.

Chris

 

[Ukraine Train]

I have an Ohio CCW and I'm aware I have to notify the officer if I'm carrying but I was aiming my question about non-ccw firearms, like a rifle in your trunk. If I'm carrying the officer may ask if I have any other guns in the car.

 

[R.H. Lee]

LE can do what's called a Terry stop, or Terry frisk, which is driver and general location of the driver, meaning all areas the driver can reach unaided, from the drivers' seat.

Does this 'Terry stop' apply in all 50 states? How often is it used? Is anything found admissable?

 

[.45&TKD]

I was aiming my question about non-ccw firearms, like a rifle in your trunk. If I'm carrying the officer may ask if I have any other guns in the car.

I have always wondered about this also. I have had a AZ CCW for almost 4 years, but it has been almost 10 years since I have been pulled over.

If I am carrying CCW, but I have 5 rifles in the trunk (coming back from the range) do I have to divulge all that information, if asked?

Will they want to see everything if I do divulge everything?

If I divulge that I have a CCW and that my weapon is on my right hip inside wastband and they ask if there are any other weapons in the car, what is the proper response?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

if you have a CCW permit, more than likely one of the items in law is that you MUST disclose the fact you're carrying to a law enforcement officer during intial interview

You better look into your particular state law on that. In Georgia, we are not required to disclose if we have a permit or if we are carrying, and I would not do so unless I was asked to step out of the vehicle.

Has anyone ever been asked if they had any guns at a traffic stop? I never have been.

I would answer truthfully and politely, even though he would have no reason to ask that question of me; I would be afraid if he did find out I had a gun, he would go crazy on me for not being honest. Last thing I want is a freaked out police officer with a gun.

Then after I got home, I would report the incident to his superiors, and request an explanation for why I was asked that.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

In my case:

"Officer, I have a license to carry firearms and currently have one at <location>. How would you like me to proceed?"

And at that point in time you have diffused whatever situation (depending on your state laws) may have prompted the LEO to ask. You are now out in front of the situation, telling him yes and telling him you are legal, he’ll either ask you to display your CHL or just say okay, thanks for being honest ha may ask you to just stay away from where ever you have told him the gun is, or in a extreme case he may take it from you and place it in your trunk etc…and the traffic stop will proceed with either a warning or citation and you’ll be on your way as soon as possible. The latter would most likely happen only if he intended to have you get out of the vehicle, say he suspected you of DUI and wanted to perform FST.

No such thing. If you dont give permission to search. They probably will anyways.

Uhhh, okay…

First let me say this, if I have PC to search your car I won’t be asking, you’ll find out when I ask you to stop out of the car, handcuff you and pass you over to my partner who will Terry pat you and place you into the back of a patrol car, informing you that you are not under arrest at this time, but you are not free to go, you are being held on a investigative detention while we search your car. We are not required to explain our self’s roadside to you, but if you cooperate I’m sure most officers will, after the search is complete.

If I have to ask for permission, it’s because I need just that, your permission. If the cop proceeds anyway then let him and go find you a lawyer ASAP.

Now I will be honest with you, no where in the law books does it say I CANNOT lie to you and if I have PC for the stop and arrest etc, but I just want to gather a bit more info I have lied to folk on stops just to see their reaction to a particular question.

If a cop asks and you say no, he takes you out anyway then searches that could be the case. But you’ll find out soon enough because you will be arrested for whatever he was going to arrest for in the first place and the report will articulate his reason for the roadside challenge and response question.

Does this 'Terry stop' apply in all 50 states? How often is it used? Is anything found admissable?

Yes Terry was a USSC case it is the standard nationwide. I use Terry when I place someone into an investigative detention, not an arrest but not free to go either. Yes if I find evidence of contraband or fruits of the crime you can be charged and prosecuted.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Yes Terry was a USSC case it is the standard nationwide. I use Terry when I place someone into an investigative detention, not an arrest but not free to go either.

So, hypothetically, if I were to throw the Uzi in the back seat (out of my immediate reach) and throw my jacket over it, it would or would not be admissable if the officer found it during a 'Terry stop'? Not being smart@$$ here, just asking a question.

 

[why_me]

Now I will be honest with you, no where in the law books does it say I CANNOT lie to you and if I have PC for the stop and arrest etc, but I just want to gather a bit more info I have lied to folk on stops just to see their reaction to a particular question.

The lies for probable cause are After the stop is made in the majority of cases.

"Uh yes your honor i noted suspect was weaving between lanes"
"I noticed a light was out"
" Suspect didnt completely stop for stop sign"

Fishing expeditions are no reason to gut the bill of rights.

 

[steveno]

if the officer asks I will tell him the truth otherwise it is none of his business if I have a gun in my truck or not. the officer already has is standard of care when he approaches the vehicle and I'm certainly not going to come out shooting for any reason. I try to follow the idea that I don't give them a reason to stop me in the first place.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Interesting discussion.

I've no problem with handing over my LTCF with my license if I'm pulled over in PA. Out of state's a different issue.

I regularly run the 95 corridor to VA through some fairly serious GFW territory with my sidearm locked up in my trunk pursuant to USC 18.whatever.

If pulled over in blue territory and asked that question, I'd just as soon sidestep the whole issue, and not get into any explanations. Since my sidearm's in my trunk, the sacred cow of "officer safety" isn't an issue, a terry search won't turn it up, and there will be no consent given to get through the 3 locks between my guns and open air.

I guess I'd have to pick between

A) Nope, no illegal guns in the car. (A true statement)
B) Splutter...guns? What on earth makes you think I've got guns? (Probing for PC)
C)Splutter...what's wrong with guns? You've got like 3 of them! (Just kidding)


In any event, the original question remains unanswered:

If an honest guy like me, having unloaded, locked and packed his guns according to interstate peaceable travel says something like, "Yes, my lawful handgun is unloaded and locked in its case in the trunk pursuant to federal interestate travel guidelines" provide an officer with PC to confirm that this is in fact the case?

I'm not interested in the BS answer, "well, if you've done all that, you've got nothing to worry about, and shouldn't object."

I've lived in NJ too long to believe that.

 

[ojibweindian]

In Alabama, the law does not require you to disclose that you have a CCW or a weapon in the car.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Then after I got home, I would report the incident to his superiors, and request an explanation for why I was asked that.

And you probably would be forwarded to OPS who would then explain to you that in GA a LEO could actually ask you anything during the course of a traffic stop. Miranda is not required on a traffic stop so if you admit to something illegal you can be charged.

Most officers myself included ask only if we suspect you of carrying, just to see if you are truthful and to judge your reaction.

Same reason we ask you if you nave been drinking, we have a pretty good idea we just want to judge you reaction.

I’ve only asked maybe 10 folks if they had a gun in the car, because I intended to have them exit the car for FST or some other investigation. I had maybe on 5 or 6 occasion people say yes, in the glove box, console in a bag etc…

I’ve only encountered 1 CHL on a traffic stop and he handed me his GA handgun permit with his D/L and insurance and told me he hand a gun in the glove box. I told him thank you for telling me, I proceeded with the traffic stop and I gave him a warning for running the stop light at the major intersection my partner and I were working that day (the only one I gave too) and I let him go.


When I make a traffic stop or any LEO/citizen encounter I subscribe to the FBI model of suspect approach, you approach everyone as if this encounter WILL end in a gunfight.

There are only two types of traffic stops unknown risk stops and felony stops. There is no such thing as a routines stop anymore, you can thank your fellow rock dwellers for that, tinted windows so dark you cannot see the interior lights, folks just generally acting stupid nutting up on a traffic stop cause they feel everything is racial, people spaced out on meth, drinking and driving, rolling domestic disputes.

And ironically due to some department’s policy on no chases except felony charges you now have MORE chases!

Here’s why…

Criminals are by their very nature stupid I believe we all agree, but they are not totally dumb. Most are street-smart learning skills they were taught while in jail. One thing now is for folks who say are running dope or have a buddy in the car who is wanted, they get stopped for whatever reason, minor, they wait till the cop is out of the car and just as he passes the hood of his car or makes contact with their car and can no longer see the brake lights they throw it in driver and go, many time making contact with the officer as they speed off, then it becomes agg assault by vehicle.

I had this done to me several time, the last time was on June 6, 2004, the reason I remember this, I was struck by the car, my gun holster (right side) caught on the rear passenger window which was down spinning me as the car took off. The driver turned into traffic as he left turning to the left into where I was standing I went up against the side of the car, knocking me down. I injured my hamstring in my right leg by over extending it when the car hit me.

The car was driven by a 19 year old black female her brother in the passenger seat was wanted for VOP and he knew it, told her what to do.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

So, hypothetically, if I were to throw the Uzi in the back seat (out of my immediate reach) and throw my jacket over it, it would or would not be admissable if the officer found it during a 'Terry stop'? Not being smart@$$ here, just asking a question.

Terry is NORMALLY applied to the basic areas on a person where one would be expected to conceal a weapon, waist, pockets, underarms you get the picture. When I terry pat I cannot “grab†or “grope†like I can when I am searching you incident to arrest, I can only “pat’ hence the Terry Pat.

There is some speculation as to whether terry is applicable to what the law calls the lunging area or wingspan search. This is the area in your immediate control such as the area you describe.

The way I read Terry is this,

No I do not have the right to do anything but a plain view search of your car IF all I am doing is a Terry pat of your person for weapons, I am removing you from the car thereby removing you from the weapon.

 

[charby]

I hardly ever get pulled over (haven't since I got my CCW), usually for not wearing a seat belt (stupid nanny state law) or pulling a california stop. I must have a some sort of tell tell sign on my forehead that I might have a firearm in my vehicle.

I don't attach NRA stickers or political stickers to my vehicles, all my firearms and assessories are in the trunk in the car or behind the seat in the pickup. The only thing that might set me off is my orange ball cap that usually annoints my dash during pheasant season or empty shotshell hulls on the floor of the passenger side during the fall. (I try and pick up all my hulls when hunting)

The last time I got pulled over was in South Dakota Aug 1999 for doing 5 mph over the speed limit on I-90. At the time I was clean cut, fresh shaven and wearing a polo shirt, kakhi shorts and sandles driving a Dodge Stratus rental car. First thing the trooper asked me after taking license, etc is if I had any firearms, I told him in the trunk was a muzzleloader that I brought along for my dad (who I was visiting) and I to target shoot with. The trooper was pretty cool and after about a 15 min chat about Iowa he set me on my way without a ticket. I think he was looking for drug trafficers or something like that and I wasn't that guy.

Charby

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

The lies for probable cause are after the stop is made in the majority of cases.

"Uh yes your honor i noted suspect was weaving between lanes"
"I noticed a light was out"
" Suspect didnt completely stop for stop sign"

Fishing expeditions are no reason to gut the bill of rights.

I’m sorry why_me, evidentially you live in an extremely horrible state or city… about all I can offer you is the welcome mat for GA, please come down here where you are not instantly a criminal for owning a gun, infact most cops look at you funny if you don’t own a gun.

 

[cslinger]

infact most cops look at you funny if you don’t own a gun.

I have met many LEO's in Maryland of all places who will tell you flat out everybody should learn to shoot and own a gun. Most seem to be old guard but it seems that once most LEOs deal with their share of stuff and work a few murders that they understand that there are bad folks out there who do bad things to good folks.

Once again there are bad cops. There are stupid cops. There are lazy cops. and there are downright ignorant, AH, dirty cops. Kind of like there are bad people, stupid people, lazy people and downright ignorant, AH dirty people.

The fact is in my experience most cops are good folk who at least start out wanting to do the right thing and help folks. Now......chiefs and administrators.....they are mostly politicians and that is where problems start as far as I am concerened.

Chris

 

[why_me]

West Milwaukee Wisconsin

Already made up our mind.
We are moving to Minnesota. Last ticket i got was for disobeying a sign.
The sign was a white line painted on the road. A month later they painted over the line. SO now you can legally drive there. We have a law here ticket revenues go to municipality giving out the ticket. 20% goes to the state.
Little crap holes like West Milwaukee make big $$$$ off there tickets.

 

[Nickotym]

How about locking your car after you get out if the officer asks you to get out? PC? Would require warrant to look in car correct?
I can just see it:

judge: "Why do you want a warrant, officer?"
Officer: " He locked his car after I asked him to exit the vehicle."
Judge: "Gone fishing lately?"

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

According to the US Supreme Court there are several exceptions to Search and Seizure

Consent

Search incident to arrest,

Emergency or exigent circumstances,

Automobile exception (when an officer makes a traffic stop he/she can search the car for weapons w/o a search warrant.) places that can be search is anyplace under the immediate control of the suspect.

Abandon property

Probationers/Prisoners

Plain view doctrine

 

[DelayedReaction]

You should always lock your car after you exit from it. If an officer asks why, just say you do it out of habit. If he then asks for your keys, say you don't consent to searches. If he still asks for them, say you are complying with his order to provide him with the keys but you do not consent to any search of your property.

Never give up your rights.