If LEO asks if you have firearms during a Terry stop

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mstrat

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"Free legal advice is worth every penny," etc pre-acknowledged: What are your experiences, opinions, and knowledge about this situation?

In IL firearms must be unloaded and encased. You are carrying an unloaded and encased handgun and are in possession of your IL FOID card.

You have a large bumper sticker advocating CCW (actually, more generally Right To Carry) legislation in IL, as well as ISRA and NRA stickers in your rear window.

Let's say you are stopped by an LEO in Chicago for a traffic violation - likely via a stretch of the word "violation" but let's just assume it was a legitimate minor incident (not complete stop at a stop sign, for example) - and the officer asks if you are transporting any firearms.

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but that's an odd question for a police officer to ask you out of the blue, so I assume it's because of the stickers in the window.

How would you respond?

What are your options? Can you respectfully decline to answer, or is that probable cause? What about "I am not illegally transporting any firearms" ? Or do you just say "yes" ?

In my experience at least some (if not many, or all) Chicago LEOs have little respect for the 4th amendment.

In any of these responses, is the LEO justified in detaining the citizen and searching his/her vehicle without giving any justification? Or were the stickers in the window all the justification they need?
 
Thanks. And I agree - lying is the worst, and not even on the table as an option.
 
Do not lie.

Speak ONLY to the extent required by law.

"Am I free to leave? No? I have nothing further to say without benefit of counsel."
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There really is nothing further to add.
 
So you're telling me the conversation is this?

1) LEO: Are you transporting any firearms?
2) You: Am I free to leave?
3) LEO: No
4) You: I have nothing further to say without benefit of counsel.

#3 would more likely be. "Uhmm.. what?! Are you high? I asked you a question!"

Or am I misunderstanding? Failing to answer the LEO question (by responding with a question) seems like a bad idea, no?
 
p.s.

By the way this is not a hypothetical situation.

I'm trying to find the "correct" answer that will avoid a violation of my 4th amendment rights (or to confirm that it is not, in fact a violation of my rights).

I chose "I'm not illegally transporting any firearms, sir." Apparently I chose poorly and it cost me a lot of hassle, wasted time, and unjustified lecture.
 
Ultimately nothing you do or say is going to stop a cop who wants to bust your chops from busting your chops. All you can really do is mitigate the damages.

The more you talk to a cop the more likely you are to say something he can use against you. So you say as little as you can. If the question wasn’t directly related to the stop I would have just shut up.

I also wouldn’t have those stickers on my car
 
Remain silent if you must, but be prepared to spend time in jail and a LOT of money. But I live in CO, have a CWP, and carrying loaded handguns in your vehicle here is legal anyway, permit or not. Long guns can't have a round chambered, but they can have a loaded magazine. I don't carry any guns loaded in a vehicle, except the one I'm wearing, but that's just my preference.
 
Remain silent if you must, but be prepared to spend time in jail and a LOT of money.
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Just to be perfectly clear - no laws were broken except for the alleged traffic violation, nor was any time spent in jail.

But this is a city with a history for stomping all over the 2nd Amendment. And legal or not, I think luigi is right that the police are going to do what they want (or are mandated) to do.

I also wouldn’t have those stickers on my car
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I would, and do. :)

I'm in the midst of creating a new advocacy/education site geared toward making people here aware of their 2nd Amendment rights, and the fact that we're the only state left that has no form of legal carry for self defense - as well as some other avenues of advocacy.

It's important to help people here become comfortable with armed law-abiding citizens, so the stickers stay.

As I anticipated, and has obviously shown to be true, I'm going to get hassled from time to time and pulled over for imaginary traffic violations. I accept this.
I'm just looking for the most appropriate and respectful way to keep these incidents short and sweet (or better yet, avoid the incident altogether).
 
1. I would answer the question truthfully, describing in general terms if I am CARRYING the firearm or TRANSPORTING the firearm. For instance: "I have a Concealed Pistol License and I am carrying my firearm in a holster on my belt on my right side." or "I am transporting an unloaded firearm in a locked case/compartment."

2. At this point, under a liberal interpretation of Terry V. Ohio and other cases, the officer has the legal ability to ask you to step out of the vehicle, perform a Terry Frisk patdown of the exterior of your clothing to check for weapons, and can perform a cursorary search of only those portions of the vehicle from which a firearm could be easily obtained. All of this without consent. Assuming, of course, that you did say you had a firearm in step 1. If you answered negatively in step 1 - the mere existence of pro-gun stickers or a concealed pistol license is not reasonable suspicion that you are armed and dangerous.

3. If the officer is law abiding and they want to search further, they must obtain consent or a search warrant. At this point, never, ever give consent to any further search regardless of what the officer threatens. In order to obtain the search, they are SUPPOSED to have reasonable suspicion that further evidence of the infraction you were stopped for exists. So, if you were stopped for speeding or a stop sign, you cased firearm has no bearing on what you were stopped for. Also, if I am asked to exit the vehicle, and I am alone, I plan on bringing my keys with me and locking the vehicle doors. That removes any "implied consent" the officer may think they have to search my vehicle.
 
This ties in well with a previous thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=545907

It is a tough issue, as a lot of folks consider not answering an officer's questions directly to be "rude" -- and tend to feel that they have nothing to hide, so why "act/speak like a criminal?"

I think our members here may have the discernment to see why there must be a third point of view, wherein we neither give up our rights, nor are uncivil toward our sworn public servants.

Personally, I'm fond of something like, "there is nothing illegal in this vehicle," followed up by, "I want to cooperate as much as I can, but I do not consent to any searches." At that point, the officer pretty much has to declare that he has probable cause to search you without your consent, or he must proceed with the stop without searching you, accepting your response.

If he does request that you step out of the vehicle, do so slowly and carefully, but lock and close the door. If the door is closed and locked, the "Terry" frisk reasonably must be limited to your person. (If you're on the same side of the locked door as the officer, than any items inside are equally inaccessible to you and him and are thus not a credible threat to his safety.)

Now, of course, lots of folks will be quick to point out that an officer can usually elucidate some reason for needing to do a search if he really wants to, but that puts the responsibility for that decision on his shoulders. And he will have to answer for that decision if there is some investigation of the incident later.

Remember, it is well established that neither the sticker on your car nor your refusal of consent to answer questions -- or to searches of your person/property -- are in any way legally valid "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion."
 
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It depends. Am I legally bound to answer the question?

Not trying to be an ass to cops, but if I don't have to tell them something, then what good can come from volunteering information?
 
Again, neither the stickers on your car nor refusing to consent to a search is legally valid probable cause or reasonable suspicion.
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Agreed, they do, however, tend to trip a switch in the cop's brain ( or in the brain of a crook who's deciding which car to break into).

A cop doesn't need probable cause to ask you any question he chooses to ask you. You may not have to legally answer them but he can ask them all day long.

I said in an earlier post that if you talk long enough you'll say something he can use against you, I could amend that statement to say "If you give a cop enough information sooner or later you'll give him something to use against you."

So why hand him a reason to ask that question?
 
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Under current Supreme Court precedent, a cop can only engage in a Terry frisk, or the analogous search of the passenger compartment of a car for weapons, when he has reasonable suspicion, based on specific and articulable facts, that you are both ARMED and DANGEROUS.

If you tell him you have a gun, or he sees it, or sees a gun case, I would give him the ARMED part, but on just a random traffic stop, he would have absolutely no specific and articulable facts to support the DANGEROUS element. If he has no probable cause that you are carrying the gun illegally, I don't think he would have any justification in securing the gun during your stop.

If you deny consent for a search, or tell him that it's none of his business whether you are armed, obviously you should be prepared to deal with the worst that he can dish out as far as traffic tickets, etc. And if he's a real piss-ant, he might try to come up with some reason to take you downtown.

If you deny consent for him securing your firearm, you should be prepared for the cop not seeing the law your way, and forcing you to submit to a search/seizure anyway. In this instance, you need to decide whether you want to file a lawsuit afterwards.

I would say if it's a minor ticket like a busted taillight or rolling a stopsign, then sure, go ahead and invoke your rights. But if it's a somewhat major traffic violation like 15 over or something that you want to keep off your driving record, I would probably go along with what the cop wants. I find that when I get stopped with weapons, and the cops want to search me and my car, etc., they usually just give me a warning on the traffic violation that was the predicate for the stop. Yes, it's happened to me several times.

I've never totally denied consent for a search... though one time I made a deal with the cop that if I consented, he would let me off with a warning if he didn't find anything illegal. He kept his word.

Anyway, be careful out there guys.
 
henschman said:
Under current Supreme Court precedent, a cop can only engage in a Terry frisk, or the analogous search of the passenger compartment of a car for weapons, when he has reasonable suspicion, based on specific and articulable facts, that you are both ARMED and DANGEROUS.
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The problem is that there is not a court in this land that has separated "armed" from "dangerous" in the context of a detention made under true RAS. I don't see any court in the very near future separating those two and I'm not personally betting my freedom on it.
 
You are never "legally bound" to answer any question the cop has for you as the right to remain silent is always an option.
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Not exactly. There are certain circumstances under which the Supreme Court has ruled that a person must at least verbally identify themselves to an officer when asked to.
 
Here in Louisiana, you are required to tell an officer if you have a gun in your vehicle or on person. However, this is beside my upcoming point. If a police officer wants to ask questions, answer him. He's not looking arrest you; he wants to make sure you aren't doing anything wrong. If you're not breaking the law, answer the officer's questions! If you refuse to answer, then that's just gonna give you and him/her more headaches. Its pretty stupid to just say, "I exercise my right to remain silent without counsel" if you've done nothing wrong. I've been stopped, I think, six or seven times in both Louisiana and Texas and I found out that if you cooperate and answer his questions it goes a very long way. Wanna search my car? Go right ahead. He'll find nothing and let me go. Wanna search me? Go right ahead.

If you have a gun on your body (legally) or in your car, tell him immediately. I always do that.

I'm sorry for rambling, but I just don't see the point in telling officers, "I have nothing more to say." They are still human; work with them and they'll work with you.
 
If a police officer wants to ask questions, answer him. He's not looking arrest you;
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And you know this HOW? That's right, you DON'T.

A man from North Carolina legally carrying in Fairfax County, Virginia notified cops during a traffic stop when he didn't need to. They falsely arrested him for:

  • Having hollowpoints.
  • Crossing state lines while armed.
  • Carry a concealed weapon with his recognized NC credential.
When a magistrate declared it a false arrest for things which weren't even crimes, they tried to unlawfully keep his firearm.

Now tell me again how they weren't looking to arrest him...
 
Ok, this hypothetical situation occurred in the state of Illinois.

1. Conceal carry in NOT PERMITTED in Illinois in any way, shape, or form. If you are conceal carrying, then you are making a big mistake.
2. Lying to a police officer is a felony, look it up.
3. If I was carrying a firearm in the proper manner (encased with ammunition separated) and in possession of a valid Illinois FOID card I would answer yes I am carrying a firearm locked up with the ammunition separated from the firearm.
4. If the LEO asks to search your car you reply that you do not consent to any searches.
5. Don't put any kind of stickers like NRA, CCW, SAF, etc. on your car unless you want it to get broken in to. The bad guys look for that as the probability of having firearms to steal is much higher.

Doubtful that the LEO will want to search your car unless you are engaging in suspicious activity.
 
Doubtful that the LEO will want to search your car unless you are engaging in suspicious activity.
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I've known cops to state they routinely ask for permission to search just to see what kind of response they get.

Oficer, I do not consent to any searches
 
And you know this HOW? That's right, you DON'T.

A man from North Carolina legally carrying in Fairfax County, Virginia notified cops during a traffic stop when he didn't need to. They falsely arrested him for:
Having hollowpoints.
Crossing state lines while armed.
Carry a concealed weapon with his recognized NC credential.
When a magistrate declared it a false arrest for things which weren't even crimes, they tried to unlawfully keep his firearm.

Now tell me again how they weren't looking to arrest him...
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I'm more interested in knowing how you know what I do know. How do you know what I've studied? How do you know the contents of my advanced studies? How do you know what degrees I have? You don't. Therefore, you do not know what I know.

I did not attack you. Your attack on me is unwarranted.

Furthermore, if you were a law enforcement officer, or one somehow related to the field, you would know why officers have no desire to arrest someone.

I've known cops to state they routinely ask for permission to search just to see what kind of response they get.
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Yes, they do this to see how you will answer. They are not exactly looking for a yes or no; sometimes they are looking for something else.
 
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