If it can do this to steel what would it do to a BG?

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WifeofBleys

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Hi, everybody...

I thought I would post this, though I know some here will still say a .22lr cannot and should not be used for self-defense under any circumstances. Hubby and I went out shooting today with an old, empty, steel freon tank as a target. We put it down range, approximately 100 ft. The photo shows the results. The firearm was the ISSC M22.

Now for the argument that a .22 would not stop an attacker... If it can pierce steel at 100ft, imagine what it would do to a bad guy?
 
While it is impressive that a .22 can punch holes in mild steel that is about all it will do to a BG as well. I'm not saying a .22 can't kill, many people have been killed by them, but I would not trust my life to one unless it was a last, last resort.

The energy developed by a .22 is minimal. (134# @ muzzle), and the wound cavity is VERY small. In comparison a 9mm comes in @ 356# at the muzzle, and a .45ACP @ 414#. That energy and the MUCH larger wound channel provides a much greater chance of putting a BG down and keeping them there. With the .22 it would be absolutely perfect shot placement and luck that put a BG down.

When it comes to SD I want as many of the odds in my favor as possible.;)

Edit: my numbers came from Federal's website.
 
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Its kinda like,

If you had to either get poked by a long needle, or stabbed by sharpened baseball bat, which one would you choose? Both have the ability to take you out but what is your impression?

This is an extreme analogy but you get the point.
 
thats Forane, not Freon ;)


The energy developed by a .22 is minimal. (134# @ muzzle), and the wound cavity is VERY small. In comparison a 9mm comes in @ 356# at the muzzle, and a .45ACP @ 414#. That energy and the MUCH larger wound channel provides a much greater chance of putting a BG down and keeping them there. With the .22 it would be absolutely perfect shot placement and luck that put a BG down.
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the effects of "energy dump" in human incapacitation is not known(holy cow I struggled with the grammar in that one), but it doesn't appear to play a major role at handgun energy levels.
also, I think you may be confusing temporary stretch cavity and crush cavity


If you had to either get poked by a long needle, or stabbed by sharpened baseball bat, which one would you choose? Both have the ability to take you out but what is your impression?
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..... ever here of someone surviving a .22" hole in their aorta?
 
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Nope, hence the reason I pointed out it's was a hyperbole of an analogy.

Then on the other hand I don't keep track nor know of how to find everyone ever shot by a .22 so my lack of experiences with aortic gunshots means nothing. I suppose with modern day technology and a half a block response time it wouldn't be impossible. Purly an opinion of course.
 
Our regional State Coroner was also my primary care doctor, and a friendly, chatty guy. I asked him which firearm round accounted for the most deaths. "The .32 outside-lubricated lead (.32 S&W, .32 Long Colt), easily" he said, "followed closely by the .22 rimfire". But ... killing people eventually isn't the same as stopping them before they hurt you or yours.
 
And they're a bit quieter than most others.. as well

In short, it would poke a .22 caliber hole..
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...

I like that, lol, and would add that it could bounce around if deflected by a bone, or bones..

Nothing is impossible, lol

Something is better than nothing - fact



Ls
 
Energy numbers are interesting and helpful for comparing 2 rounds, but don't really tell the whole story. In hunting or self defence the only thing that really counts is broken body parts. 22's have always been known to penetrate well, but that does not equal broken body parts.

That said, 22's are under rated by many. While not a 1st choice, I think they would do a better job than most folks think.
 
I have to admit to being a little surprised by this. Refrigerant "jugs" (30 lb. cylinders) are made of fairly substantial metal (I don't know the gauge, but it is thicker than typical auto body sheet metal, for instance), and I would not have expected penetration from a .22 LR at that distance.
Frozen North said:
In short, it would poke a .22 caliber hole..
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This cuts to the heart of the matter, doesn't it. I want a little bigger hole than that if my life is on the line. Being a lethal round - which no one questions - is not the same as stopping an attack. I only recommend .22 for self defense if A: you have nothing else, or B: you have a physical problem which will not allow you to shoot anything with substantial recoil.
 
extremely thin sheet steel
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Okay, it wasn't thick, but it wasn't ultra thin, either. I was actually rather surprised that the .22 punctured it. I need to do some research, but I believe the human skull isn't too thick, either. This is morbid, I apologize. But if someone attacks me or enters the home, I plan on shooting to kill. IMO and along with some of the members that have responded to my posts, it's all about skill and placement.
 
You only shot the jug with one caliber. Of course that will be the top performing caliber in this invalid demonstration.
Get another jug. Or three more, and shoot .380, 9mm, .40, and .45. Then lets talk.
 
While I appreciate that I didn't shoot other calibers, (because all I am comfortable shooting is a .22 at this point) I felt that others would like to know that the .22lr would penetrate an object of thickness at a substantial range. It was not a test and, if it was, it was only of my firearm and my aim. I didn't intend to do a study. I posted this because many folks here believe a .22 is just a .22, not worthy of consideration.
 
If the .22 was a reliable self defense round then we would all be carrying .22 pistols.
Cops would be carrying .22 pistols, and the military would be carrying .22 pistols.

But here's the facts...
Humans have been shooting humans since firearms were invented.
And we have collectively learned a few things over the centuries and decades.
And one of the things we have learned is that the .22 is a pathetic handgun round when it comes to stopping aggressive humans.

Doubt this at your own peril.
 
I like that, lol, and would add that it could bounce around if deflected by a bone, or bones..
Nothing is impossible, lol
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lol, not really lol
lol the energy is expended by the time it hits a lol bone lol
your body lol isn't a pinball machine lol velocity isn't re-directed without major loss lol it is absorbed my meat lol

===

WifeofBleys, if you are in my area, I'll extend the offer to bring a pile-o-guns to my range, with ammo and reactive targets for you to compare. There is no reason a healthy adult (regardless of plumbing layout) can't handle a duty-size 9mm. I'd suspect that in a few hours you would be shooting and enjoying an all-steel .45acp gun.
 
If it's all about shot placement, we should all drop our bigger guns and use .22s.

Here's the thing. In combat, you don't get to place all of your shots where you want to. You might only get one. You might already be wounded and returning fire. .22s are unpredictable. They might zip straight through. Or they might zing along a bone or the fat layer on the inside of the skin.

No round is guaranteed to do anything. But some are much less likely to stop someone with the first shot than others.

In saying that a .22 is what you are comfortable shooting, I hear that someone TOLD YOU you can't start with a .38 or a 9mm.
 
My local gunshop is managed by a woman. I asked her what she carries one day and I would like to quote her.

"Recoil makes me shoot like a girl, I will take my chances with a .22."

I think this may sum it up for some folks. There is really no right answer here.
 
If everyone would please read my previous threads...

My husband and I own several firearms.

We have a .40 Walther P99, which kicks my butt when I fire it. Way too big for me, a ton of recoil, IMO. I have fired it and I don't like it.

We also have the Hi-Point C9. Please keep comments to yourself about the Hi-Point name. We bought it because it is durable and has an awesome warranty, and we are on a budget. I have fired it as well, but I don't like it either. The trigger is too hard for me and, while I have fired it, it seems like I am just standing there flinching waiting for the trigger.

I primarily fire my .22 magnum and .22lr. That's what I am comfortable with. Maybe at some point, I will become comfortable with something else. But, once again, IMHO, I would rather have some means of protection other then cowering in a corner.

Not that anyone needs to know this, but I am 5'4" tall, I don't have upper body strength to speak of, I have a back injury that limits how far I can push my body, and being kicked the h*** out of by a firearm is not what I am going for. Just being at the range, shooting 100-200 rounds puts me in alot of pain.

bigfatdave, it has nothing whatsoever to do with my plumbing. And I really think your response was not in line with taking The High Road.
 
I hear that someone TOLD YOU you can't start with a .38 or a 9mm
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No one "told" me any such thing. As a matter of fact, hubby is insistant that I become comfortable with our 9mm. I'm just not there yet.
 
I had a similar eureka moment with a .22 a long time ago and the range was about 300 yards.

The .22LR is far more powerful than it appears - hence the need to exercise caution when shooting.

The .22LR is about the bottom of the heap for defensive use.

We all get to make choices. Plenty of .22s have been used for defensive and other purposes, no need to imagine the results, they're well documented.

I really like .38sp, 9mm and 45Auto. My wife handles a .38 in a heavy revolver, so does my mom. Mom tried my .22/45 and couldn't get it to shoot (weak grip I guess), but I couldn't get it to fail (edit - except for feeding it dud ammo - thanks Remington!). We're all different.
 
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I think it's great that you're shooting, but an important part of shooting is knowing the capability of the firearm. For defensive purposes, a .22 is better than nothing. Dependent on attacker's range, it MAY be better than a knife. That's it. If you plan to use it for defense, I hope you can hit the BG between the eyes, because a CNS shot is your only hope for an instant stop.

It is fun to plink on steel cans like that, but holes that size are not an impressive accomplishment. I can make holes that big in a freon can with a medium-sharp flat blade screwdriver and a strong swing.

What a 22 is best at is shooting 500 (or better) rounds in an outing. It's the only caliber that will do that, and you're only out $20.
 
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