If it can do this to steel what would it do to a BG?

[marksman13]

Wifeofbleys, I think you took Dave's comment the wrong way. He wasn't slighting you or the female gender. He was saying that a woman can basically handle firearm that a man can.

A .22LR is better than the proverbial pointy stick, but certainly isn't ideal. That said, given your situation and health you may be best served by your 22 for now. Not trying to blast your Highpoint, but I really don't know if that is a fair platform to make a judgment on the 9mm cartridge. An EAA Witness compact is fairly economical alternative and much better trigger. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Weevil]

The .22LR is about the bottom of the heap for defensive use.

I'd say it's a toss up between .22 LR and .25acp.

Personally I'd rather have a .22 revolver loaded up with Stingers than a .25 pistol.

But then again I'd rather have a .25 pistol than a .22 pistol not necessarily because it's more powerful just generally more reliable in a small pistol.

 

[bigfatdave]

Wifeofbleys, I think you took Dave's comment the wrong way. He was slighting you or the female gender. He was saying that a woman can basically handle firearm that a man can.

indeed

And it should be noted that a P99 is a lightweight gun for fo-tay and the Hi-Point 9x19 is straight blowback ... neither of them is exactly a great example for duty-caliber guns and their recoil.

The offer stands, I will happily supply:
A pile-o-guns in; .32acp, 9x19, 9x18, .45acp, 7.62x25, and anything else I can round up
...(I might be able to get a FiveseveN loaned out, maybe something in fo-tay or a .380)
25-50 rounds for each (including some HP rounds retired from carry due to corrosion/dings if I have them on-hand)
Water jugs to blast
Range time/RSO coverage
Paper targets
If we time it right, my wife can lend a female perspective and show off her hardware, too.

All I ask in return is lunch and maybe a chance to try out that P99 (I've been wanting one for a while) and Hi-Point, I'll even supply ammo for them.

I understand that you're on a budget but I really think you're selling yourself short, that ISSC is a trainer so you can get used to running a Glock-like gun, you blast a few thousand rounds of .22lr for pennies and then do some training with a centerfire handgun, minimizing the ammo costs.

And of course a .22 is better than nothing, but there are far better options and I think a chance to try a variety of platforms would help you spend that defense budget much more efficiently.

 

[WifeofBleys]

An EAA Witness compact is fairly economical alternative and much better trigger. Just throwing it out there

I appreciate this suggestion, marksman13, and am actually giving some thought to another firearm in 9mm. It would be better defensively than the .22. It would need to be very budget-friendly though. We have tossed around the idea of trading the C9 and my .22 magnum (if it can't be fixed in a timely manner) for something else in 9mm. I think I could handle the caliber, but the trigger on the C9 is just so unfriendly. If there was some trigger alterations we (or better, a gunsmith) could make to make it smoother, I would definitely be more inclined to fire it more often.

 

[WifeofBleys]

Bigfatdave,

I apologize if I misunderstood your post or took it in some way you did not intend. I am new to the whole sport of shooting and I suppose I may need thicker skin in some instances.

I do appreciate your offer, but hubby and I live on the other side of the country, if I came to the proper conclusion that you live in the Northeastern US.

 

[Weevil]

If you're looking for a larger caliber pistol that is a really soft shooter and very easy to rack the slide on you might want to give the Walther PK380 a look.

If you're already familiar with the P99 and want something that's not as brutal to shoot the PK maybe just what you're looking for.




Now I know a lot folks don't think much of the .380 but it's definitely a step up from a .22, and you won't find a soft shooter with any less felt recoil. A bit big for concealed carry but since I get the impression you want it for home defense it might be just the ticket.

 

[Girodin]

..... ever here of someone surviving a .22" hole in their aorta?

Yes, Brody Young, the park ranger that was shot nine times in southern Utah. Although I believe he was shot with something larger than a .22LR, a .40 caliber handgun IIRC. He was struck in the heart with one of those nine rounds that hit him.

By the way he managed to return 15 rounds of fire, it is (or at least was at one time) believed that he wounded his assailant. He then managed to make his way over to his truck and radio for help. He was in a relatively remote area and was life flighted to a city that is 2hrs away by car.

He was of course severally wounded but this is yet another illustration of guns not being death rays and even a hit to a very vital area (along with 8 others) not taking someone immediately out of a fight or stopping them from doing serious damage to the person who shot them.

 

[Monkey_King]

WifeofBleys, If you're comfortable using a 22 for HD/PD then I totally respect your choice. I would feel confident carrying a 22 for PD. I would feel more confident with a 9,40,45,38,357 etc... but that is because I'm comfortable with those and they have more umph! There have been many experts, which I'm not, who have stated that people should carry what they are comfortable and well practiced with, even if its a 22lr. Please don't ask what experts because I don't take notes for references when I read the articles. I will pass on a story from my family history. Several decades ago my great uncle got into a dispute with another gentleman over land and it came to shots being fired. Both parties were armed with 22lrs. My uncle was hit 8 or 9 times, I forget which. None were center mass and he lived a couple more decades, but never had much use with one arm. I don't remember how many but several shots grazed his head but did not penetrate his scull. The other shooter was only hit once around the knee/lower thigh. The round traveled up his thigh and lodged in his lower abdomen. He succumbed to that wound after walking back to his truck. Take what you will from that story. I believe a .22lr will kill you just as dead as a run away bread truck, but has a much smaller margin of error than larger calibers.

 

[EHL]

I concur with the rest of the fellas in here that your HI-Point is a poor sample for how a 9mm duty pistol should feel. Often, it's not so much the caliber than it is the gun that determines percieved recoil. The Hi-Point 9mm is a blow back pistol, so the shooter is left to absorb whatever the large slide did not draw away in terms of recoil energy. Other 9mm's don't do this, and they feel much softer and smoother to boot.

For example, my wife's first gun was a Kel-tec P3AT (.380acp) and even though it has less energy recoiling back to the shooter versus say a 9mm, the gun is atrocious to shoot for longer than a few magazines. My wife was fearful of shooting anything in a larger caliber since the small .380 was so fearsome in that little pistol.

Fastforward a few months, and she tried out my brothers XD 40. Much larger caliber, but also a beefier pistol. It was a bit snappy, but she enjoyed shooting that MUCH more than her Kel-tec. So we went down to a 9mm in the XD and she couldn't be any happier with the percieved recoil. She now only carries the Kel-Tec when she absolutely cannot carry her XD Sub without being made.

Either way, I think there's alot of wisdom in what alot of the fellas are telling you in not selling yourself short in being able to shoot a larger caliber. By the way, great to have you here.

 

[Geno]

WifeofBleys:

That's some pretty good shooting for 100 feet indeed. My all-time favorite cartridge is the "lowly" .22LR. I've had lots of folks smirk at me as I plinked out my .22LRs...especially my TC Arms Contender. Among my favorite handguns in .22LR...wow, what a list that would be.

Anyhow...awesome looking pistol you have there. I'm thankful that you started the post, and I respect the way you have responded to some posts that were a bit less kindly than I would have posted.

Regarding self-defense, the "lowly" .22LR will stop a criminal...period. Ain't no such word as more-deaderest. A .22 caliber handgun will cause a humanoid to leak that precious, life-sustaining fluid we call blood. Looking down the improper end of a .22LR muzzle would likely make most criminals leak other bodily fluids down their pant legs too! To that end, most criminals with a brain would prefer to not negotiate with an angered mother/wife/sister/aunt/daughter/grandmother/other. who can shoot a .22LR handgun as proficiently as you have done.

As an FYI, there was a thread around here some time ago about .22LR penetration into a whole, frozen turkey at about 200 yards distance. Every single round of .22LR fully penetrated the bird. I dare venture to say that turkey (frozen) would be tougher than most live tissue.

So thank-you, WifeofBleys, for the post and keep posting. I enjoy reading posts from folks who think outside-of-the-box.

Respectfully,

Geno

 

[chris in va]

Problem is, the BG doesn't always fall down or stop his/her attack immediately after getting shot. Many cease the assault when blood no longer flows to certain organs necessary for function. The idea is to get a caliber you can shoot accurately that will still cause enough internal damage and shock to halt bad actions.

The lowly 22lr actually gets credit for a higher percentage of fatalities, but it doesn't always happen right away.

 

[bigfatdave]

Problem is, the BG doesn't always fall down or stop his/her attack immediately after getting shot.

And now you're into the difference between a "voluntary stop" and an "involuntary stop" ... A .22 will cause someone to have thoughts along the lines of "oh, they have a gun" and "oh, I just got shot" ... and I doubt that any felons spend a lot of time measuring bores or wounds to determine caliber, either. If the goal is to get a voluntary stop then sure, a .22 is damn near as good at it as any other gun.
However... a .22 is not so great at producing involuntary stops in a timely fashion, particularly from a handgun, and even more so with lousy placement.

Here ... how about a visual example rather than anectotal stories and speculation?
Walther P22 versus ballistic gelatin block
http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html
Here's a handgun internally similar to that ISSC pistol, 3.4" barrel and various ammo used. Note the skinny wound tracks in the flesh-like gelatin

Now here's a 9x18 Makarov pistol. I picked it because it is inexpensive for the gun and ammo and it shows a variety of ammo again:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html
That silver bear ammo is dirt cheap, by the way. Note the messy wound tracks and expansion ... this is a cheap surplus commie gun shooting a round somewhere in between .380 and 9mm Luger

Various 9x19:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var919mm.html

Poke around, the difference is dramatic.

Sorry you're nowhere nearby, perhaps someone in your area will make a similar offer to mine.

 

[RinkRat]

On a positive note

Everywhere I read ,,,, they < whom ever they are > instruct us to carry the biggest SD firearm you can handle. Because how ever big or small it is I have been told that it’s better to have small then nothing at all.

Well if all I can hit my intended target with is a .22 caliber handgun then I guess that is what I will be using.

If that be the case, then I would be taking a very hard look at the Kel Tek PMR30. They hold 30 +1 rounds of .22WMR and I’ve seen um at the GS going for $330. OTD.

I for one sure as hares would not want to have to find myself having to out dodge 31 rounds of .22WMR coming at me in rapid raptures anytime soon

 

[exavid]

I don't see anything wrong with carrying a .22LR. It comes down to what you can hit your target with. It ain't likely any of us will be in a 'combat' situation and even a small caliber round put where it needs to go will out do a thug who can't hit the broadside of a barn. I do a fair bit of handgun shooting at our local club but no matter how much I practice I'm always a bit more accurate with my Browning Buckmark .22 pistol. True, I'd rather have some hot load 9mms in my SR9 or some .44mag in my old S&W model 29 but I don't think carrying a .22 that you can use well is useless. If it comes to needing a weapon it's very likely just having a firearm in your hand will defuse a lot of situations which is the very best outcome. If it comes down to using the gun it's still most important where the rounds go. You don't always need an atomic bomb to do a job that a 105 can do.

 

[NoobCannon]

I find it odd, that when my dad first taught me to shoot(with a .22), he told me that the .22 is responsible for more deaths than other calibers, mostly because of careless handling because "Oh, it's a .22, it won't kill anyone!". He even went so far as to tell me how one of his friends growing up accidentally killed a man with a ricochet shot from a single-shot .22. It can kill someone, regardless of performance. But along that train of thought, so can a brick.

I sleep soundly at night with my .40 next to my bed, and my dad does the same with a .32. He can't handle much more than that due to back injuries. But reading Ballistic Performance numbers on both a .22 and a .32, the .22 actually produces more kinetic energy, but that's probably out of a rifle barrel and not a pistol barrel. It almost made me laugh when I found out my .40 puts out almost three times the Kinetic Energy of a .32, but I'm sure we can all agree we'd all rather not stare down the barrel of either.

Go for the gun you're comfortable with. If a bad guy doesn't stop after the first shot, keep poppin' him until he does. If they call excessive force, point out it's just a .22.

 

[RinkRat]

Wife

By the way I have a question?

What does the other-side of that canister look like?? Did any of the rounds exit the other-side or dent??? or dimple it????

 

[shiftyer1]

My mother is a small older woman with various health problems. She can comfortably shoot all my handguns, 9mm, ,38, 357, 45acp. The problem she has is the noise, it scares her. Can you shoot 10 rounds comfortably? If so fire off a few when you go to the range just to build a little more confidence. I agree a .22 can get the job done but i'd prefer a little more oomph.
If your gonna carry a .22 at least carry the 22 mag.

And don't let anyone tell ya about hi points being junk, they're cheap, ugly, and clunky but they work and work well!

 

[K-Rod]

I have to say that your picture is impressive & through I can understand the point your trying to make I don't think your going to get the response your looking for or wanting. Most here if not all will agree that a .22 is better than nothing, but your not going to convice people that shoot more than a .22 that it's an effective round for SD. Also I feel it's terrible that you feel you should have to tell us personal information to justify your reasons. All the justifacation you need is it's what YOUR comfortable with at this point.

I think what most are trying to say is a .22 may or may not be enough but just because it's what your comfortable with now, don't stop with just a .22. I think the offer that bigfatdave made you was very admirable(kudo's to you Dave) even if it's not something you can do for whatever reason. I believe he realizes that once you start to branch out to other calibers & get more comfortable with the larger calibers, your gonna look back on this thread & say "Wow!! What was I thinking?" the .22 for SD is an arguement that has been going on for years & will continue to go on for years. It all comes down to what your comfortable with but your NEVER going to "Convert" a person comfortable with a .380, 9mm, .45 etc, that a .22 is enough. If your reasons for this thread is to get someone to tell you you can trust your life on a .22 in a SD senario to justify carrying only a .22, you will not get that advice from me. IMO I would not bet mine, my wife's, kids, family's or friends life on a .22 & will not tell you, you should bet yours on it either. Once you get comfortable with these other calibers you'll see that though a .22 to better than nothing, would you be willing to bet your life on it?

 

[danez71]

Wifeofbleys

My brother (step) was killed by a single gun shot from close range... 22lr.

A lot of other people die the same way.

A big difference though is my brother wasnt attacking anyone. He was just sitting there.


I commend your efforts in trying to get into a bigger caliber but also applaude your convictions to stick to what you are confortable with and advance at YOUR OWN PACE.


IMO, for now, you need to be able to fire all ten shots hitting a paper plate at about 20ft as fast as possible.


Ive told my wife if all she has is the 22, keep pulling the trigger until the BG stops or she runs out. That also insures if the BG gets the gun, he cant use it against her.

 

[VBVAGUY]

10 fast rounds of 22's should stop most people. If not, a fast magazine reload and another 10 !!!

 

[easyg]

Regarding self-defense, the "lowly" .22LR will stop a criminal...period.

No, the lowly .22 MIGHT stop a criminal.
No handgun caliber is guaranteed to stop a human attacker, but some do perform better than others for self defense....and the .22 from a handgun is pathetic.

Ain't no such word as more-deaderest. A .22 caliber handgun will cause a humanoid to leak that precious, life-sustaining fluid we call blood.

But will it cause the attacker to leak enough to stop him before he kills you?
The entire point of carrying a handgun for self defense is to quickly stop and attacker.
Not to make the attacker bleed to death an hour after the attack.

Looking down the improper end of a .22LR muzzle would likely make most criminals leak other bodily fluids down their pant legs too! To that end, most criminals with a brain would prefer to not negotiate with an angered mother/wife/sister/aunt/daughter/grandmother/other. who can shoot a .22LR handgun as proficiently as you have done.

I'll grant you that nobody actually wants to be shot, but there are plenty of thugs these days who have looked down the barrel of a gun before.
Gangs routinely have shootouts with other gangs....merely showing them the business end of a handgun is not likely to impress them in the least.
Most hardened criminals are not easily intimidated.

As an FYI, there was a thread around here some time ago about .22LR penetration into a whole, frozen turkey at about 200 yards distance. Every single round of .22LR fully penetrated the bird. I dare venture to say that turkey (frozen) would be tougher than most live tissue.

A frozen turkey at 200 yards.....not from a .22 caliber handgun I'll bet.

Don't confuse the effectiveness of the .22 from a rifle with the effectiveness of the .22 from a short-barreled handgun.

 

[BeerSleeper]

That is a neat looking 22. Looks kinda glockish, except for the safety on the slide.

 

[easyg]

10 fast rounds of 22's should stop most people. If not, a fast magazine reload and another 10 !!!

Yeah, IF you can hit the target 10 times in a vital area while they are trying to kill you!

Criminals don't usually attack folks from 20 yards away....they attack when they are practically within arms reach.

Are you going to have time to draw your weapon and shoot ten times at that range?

Most here would be lucky to draw and get off one round.
And I sure as heck wouldn't want that one round to be a .22.

 

[verdun59]

Down in the lower range I would feel more comfortable with a .32.
Easy shooter and much better results.

 

[merlinfire]

1st rule of gunfight: bring a gun.

a 22LR is not ideal, but as a number of other people have mentioned, the BG is unlikely to measure wound cavitation while he's being shot at. i wouldn't count on it to stop someone jacked up on PCP, but to stop a burglar it would probably do fine