If the AWB is renewed, how will you vote?

[atek3]

Dear GeneC,
I'm 22, Not a law breaker or a gang member. And you're trying to tell me that America is better off because I can't purchase a twelve round magazine for my XD-40? Why don't you take your Brady-loving, Ageist, Republican, CHL card carrying tush over to
http://www.vpc.org/
http://www.nramadness.com/
And make some friends that are as bad on the Second Amendment as you.

good bye,
atek3

 

[RooK]

I don't have to provide proof , the bill is in place, the ENTIRE LEO supports it, you prove otherwise.

Er... Entire LEO? Where are you getting this information? I'd wager money that it's from the various (liberal) Police organizations and Police chiefs in large cities. Ask the people who actually patrol the street, not someone who sits on their ass and gives orders all day long. Most 'true' police think it's a useless law and find the banned rifles/features to be something not even worth worrying about. You can verify this yourself by looking at the various police forums on the internet and reading their replies on an AWB topic.

http://www.policemag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=300

Now, I was born in 1984... Why are people born before 1972 so priviledged to be able to own these firearms when I'm not? I'm almost at the point of putting off purchasing a Glock 20 this summer for hunting just to purchase an UZI (You did know they're still making/selling them?) or AR-15. All because of people like you who are ignorant of what the laws actually do.

 

[boofus]

He can't produce facts supporting his case because there are NONE. CDC reports and the FBI crime reports all support the conclusion that gun bans of any type have had no noticeable effect on crime.

 

[fix]

Guys, don't let him frame the discussion. Make him justify the ban. The rope is being dispensed. It will soon be yanked. So far, the justification has been support for the war. Whatever that means.

 

[fix]

The silence is deafening.

 

[Publicola]

Gene C,

I understand your logic - that if you could legally buy an "assault weapon" prior to the ban then you're not effected by it. I disgree with you on many levels but I'll try to limit this to point out factual errors you've made.

Using the idea of being able to legally buy before the ban kicked in you should have used September 13th, 1976 as your date. Unless a state has restrictions that vary from the fed then 18 is the minimum age to purchase long guns (including "assault weapons"), not 21.

The AWb was passed as part of a larger package, but only the AWB has a sunset. It will not affect the larger package in any way whatsoever.

The AWB effects firearms made after 1994 that have a combination of features. If a semi-automatic rifle can accept a detachable magazine (note no capacity is mentioned) & has two of the following features it's an "assault weapon" :

"...a folding or telescoping stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and a grenade launcher..."

The AWB also bans manufacture after 1994 of any magazine (for pistol, rifle or shotgun) with a capacity of over 10 rounds.

The LEo support you mention is mainly chief's & sheriff's associations. The cop on the beat doesn't usually hold the administrators views. Odds are iin urban areas the street cops will tend to hold similar views, while in rural areas they won't. This is a generalism about all forms of LEO association supported gun control - not just the AWB.

Folding & telescoping stocks are convenient for storage. They also contribute to the collector value if they were an original feature. & as has been pointed out collapsible stocks help adjust length of pull for different shooters &/or situations.

Most studies indicate that "assault weapons" had a small place in overall crime before & after the AWB was passed. There's more or less been no conclusive study showing the AWB has reduced crime.

& while we function as a democracticly elected representative form of government, the majority rules argument is null in certain areas. The 2nd amendment provides a clear prohibition against any federal gun control law & it's not subject to the whims of a majority unless said majority amends the constitution.

As for it affecting arms I personally like - sorry. I just don't want an "assault weapon". Nothing against them I just have different preferences & desires when it comes to long guns. The mag capacity restrictions affect me, but only minimally so. My life won't change that much with or without the ban in place - at least on a practical level. I oppose it because of A: the principles involved & B: because it's another step down a very slippery slope.

One last thing - ALL LEO orgs don't support it. Only a fraction support it. the rest are generally silent on the issue.

Now if you find the information I posted here is true, would that alter your opinion of the importance of the AWB?

 

[GeneC]

"My father was born in 1952. He owns an Armalite AR10A4 that I gave him several years ago. This is a post ban rifle manufactured after the 1994 ban. Can my father legally put a collapsable stock on this weapon?

If yes: I'll write you a check. Just PM me with your info.

If no: We can start discussing your payment plan.

Unless you have a different definition of the word effect, you are making a fool of yourself. I'm thoroughly confused about where you got that 1972 date. I think I know what you pulled it out of, but I'll let you confirm."


Let' start discussing your payment plan, otherwise, go home.

 

[RooK]

Let' start discussing your payment plan, otherwise, go home.

Are you say his father can attach a collapsible stock (in which case you'd be wrong) or are you just wanting money?

 

[GeneC]

"I understand your logic - that if you could legally buy an "assault weapon" prior to the ban then you're not effected by it. "


Congradulations! If you legally could and you actually DID.


"Using the idea of being able to legally buy before the ban kicked in you should have used September 13th, 1976 as your date. Unless a state has restrictions that vary from the fed then 18 is the minimum age to purchase long guns (including "assault weapons"), not 21."


Excuse me? Show me where 18's been the legal age to buy a gun? Are you nitpicking or do you really not understand the above where you said you DID understand?






"The AWb was passed as part of a larger package, but only the AWB has a sunset. It will not affect the larger package in any way whatsoever."


Noone here has ever said anything about that, what's your point?




"The AWB effects firearms made after 1994 that have a combination of features. If a semi-automatic rifle can accept a detachable magazine (note no capacity is mentioned) & has two of the following features it's an "assault weapon" :

"...a folding or telescoping stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and a grenade launcher..."

The AWB also bans manufacture after 1994 of any magazine (for pistol, rifle or shotgun) with a capacity of over 10 rounds."



Redundancy, what is your point?





"The LEo support you mention is mainly chief's & sheriff's associations. The cop on the beat doesn't usually hold the administrators views. Odds are iin urban areas the street cops will tend to hold similar views, while in rural areas they won't. This is a generalism about all forms of LEO association supported gun control - not just the AWB."




Oh, so chiefs of Police don't come up thru the ranks? Sheriffs don't come up thru the ranks? They just grow on trees and are plucked and placed into top positions? Yeah right. You need to rethink this. These are people who've BTDT.




"Folding & telescoping stocks are convenient for storage. They also contribute to the collector value if they were an original feature. & as has been pointed out collapsible stocks help adjust length of pull for different shooters &/or situations."


Blah,blah, blah, more fodder. Sure if it's pre-ban.



"Most studies indicate that "assault weapons" had a small place in overall crime before & after the AWB was passed. There's more or less been no conclusive study showing the AWB has reduced crime."


Show sources , please.


& while we function as a democracticly elected representative form of government, the majority rules argument is null in certain areas. The 2nd amendment provides a clear prohibition against any federal gun control law & it's not subject to the whims of a majority unless said majority amends the constitution.



What areas? Strictly you opinion. Luckily the top 500 peole that run this Govt disagree with you.



As for it affecting arms I personally like - sorry. I just don't want an "assault weapon". Nothing against them I just have different preferences & desires when it comes to long guns.

__________________

So the truth is, you don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[GeneC]

Rook, he has to pay by default. He attempted to place a bet with me using a post ban gun, which was obviously his mistake, he still owes , but I'd settle if he'd just go away.

 

[madcowburger]

If the AWB is renewed, I'll either vote Libertarian again, like I did in 1992 (because of Bush Senior's betrayal of gun owners), or just stay home and watch cartoons or old movies on TV.

I sure wouldn't vote for Komrade Kerry under any circumstances.

MCB

 

[boofus]

I guess what they say is true...

Think of how stupid the average person is. By definition half of them are even dumber than that.

GeneC,

You loss the bet, you haven't provided any hard facts about anything. The CDC report and FBI Uniform Crime Report are publicly accessible from their respective govt websites. BR also gave you links to sites with accurate information. You chose to ignore them and have shown your ignorance on what the AWB does and does not do. You shown your ignorance of the NFA weapon laws and general Federal firearms laws through your own postings. You are terminally infected with a case of the brainfarts. That coupled with your elitist attitude makes you a perfect specimen of Gun Snobbus Ignoramus.

Not much sense in trying to argue facts with someone like you. Congratulations, you have earned the very first spot on my Ignore list. Not even W4rma or Agricola managed to do that.

With 'fellow enthusiasts' like you who needs the MMM and Brady.

 

[71Commander]

GeneC

 

[madcowburger]

What's all this jazz about anyone born before 1972 being exempt from the provisions of the AWB?

I was born in 1957, and I sure ain't exempt.

Yeah, starting in 1989-'90, when I saw the writing on the wall, I bought up all the pre-ban guns and normal-capacity magazines I could prior to the 1994 ban's taking effect; in fact, I went into debt for the frst time in my life, in my thirties, to do it.

The debts have been repaid in full, with interest. But I still have a lot of money -- money needed for other things -- tied up in guns I have little or no *immediate* use for in my present circumstances, which are nothing but a storage/maintenance/security headache to me now, but which I don't dare sell, for fear of *never* being able to replace them if things change and I find I *do* have a use for them all of a sudden.

The only people exempt from the AWB/normal-capacity magazine ban are the PHFLO (People' Heroic Forces of Lawnorder), like those who shot the crippled (not to mention unarmed) old man in his bed in Denver the other day. I'm not surprised they'd want all us "civilians" deprived of any arms more effective than empty soda cans.

MCB

 

[RooK]

"Most studies indicate that "assault weapons" had a small place in overall crime before & after the AWB was passed. There's more or less been no conclusive study showing the AWB has reduced crime."


Show sources , please.

Search the CDC site. They literally state they could 'find no evidence that the AWB had any effect'. If I had a link, I would give it to you.

I also have this article from a scholarly journal (ie, articles well researched and written by people with degrees) that explains how little AWs were used in crimes and an assesment of it's effects on the gunmarket/crimes into 1996:

Journal of Quantitative Criminology, Vol. 18, No. 3, September 2002
"The Impact of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban on Gun Markets: An Assessment of Short-Term Primary and Secondary Market Effects"
Christopher S. Koper & Jeffery A. Roth

If you care to pm me with an email address, I can email you the *.pdf file (225kb) and you can read it yourself.

Edit: GeneC, you never did answer my various questions/comments...

 

[DevilDog]

I will vote third party candidates, and it will hurt.

It will hurt because I believe the war on terror is important, and Kerry/Edwards do not have the courage to fight it.

A number of congressmen and senators lost their jobs aftwer the AWB was passed, that was a huge message the pro-RKBA sent. We need to send that same message every chance we get.

The "gun control" legislation I would like to see, and this is what I consider "reasonable" gun control is as follows:

If/when any previously convicted felon commits a crime with a semi-auto firearm, he will do one year of mandatory, no parole/probation possible, of time for every round of ammunition he has on him, and for every round he can load into that firearm at once. So if he commits a crime with a fully loaded semi-auto with one 30 round mag fully loaded, he would do 61 years. If he has a second fully loaded mag, he would do 91 years. Add 10 years to the sentence if that firearm was illegally obtained in the first place.

Note the qualifier - the said criminal must already have a previous felony conviction where a firearm was involved. This protects a good citizen who gets in an unfortunate situation and makes a bad judgement using a semi-auto. Considering most of our violent crime comes from repeat offenders, I do not see this qualifier degrading the effectivness of it.

I sincerely believe we would see a huge decrease in criminal use of semi-autos once that law was passed, and the gang-bangers resorting to revolvers.

I did not get this specific idea from someone else, but as a variation on the machine gun control act, which specifies punishment for illegally converting a full-auto as well as using a full-auto in a crime. That is the one "right" thing about that law. The decrease in full-auto use in crimes since that law was passed I believe to be due to the punishment specified and not the silly $200 tax stamp and approval process. This is my opinion because it is rather straightforward to convert many firearms to full-autos, yet criminals don't do it.

That is my idea of effective gun control legistlation and we have 70 years of evidence that it works.

Unfortunately, since the gun control crowd does not want effective legistation, that just want to ban guns, we probably won't ever see this.

 

[GeneC]

Boofus(what kinda name is that?), the bet was , if Pres Bush signs the AWB, he'll lose the election! See you on Nov 3rd. Btw , are you in on this bet?

MCB, you were born before 73 and you own pre ban guns, right? If you say yes, then you've proved my point. This isn't rocket science , Gentlemen, nor trickery.

 

[GeneC]

Rook said: " If I had a link, I would give it to you."


But you don't , so you won't , blah blah blah.
Btw, the Center for Disease Control?


Ask a reasonable question, I'll give you a like answer.



Devil Dog, good input, you might be on to something.

 

[fix]

I see how it works. Answering my question will do nothing to support your viewpoint, and in fact will just make it look even sillier, so you just pretend the question was not asked at all.

Still wondering how my possession of a rifle with a collapsable stock has a negative impact on the war...

GeneC - Proof positive that the Brady Campaign's money was well spent. Propaganda does work after all. May God help us all.

 

[GeneC]

Fix , what question, some stupid thing about a colapsible stock? What is your point? You asked me about a post ban assault rifle. Of course you can't legally alter a post ban assault rifle, you're not even allowed to own one. I never said anything about altering a post ban assault rifle nor made any bets about them. You made some kind of rediculous bet about altering a post ban assault rifle, which I never took you up on. Why are you admitting on here that you purchased a post ban assault rifle and are discussing altering one? My bet was to vanilB that if the Pres signs the AWB, he'll lose the election, which can't POSSIBLY come 'til NOV 4th.

 

[madcowburger]

Yes, GeneC, I own some pre-ban guns and magazines.

Guns get old. They wear out. Parts break. This process is accelerated if you practice enough to be any good with them.

Springs -- magazine springs, recoil springs, main springs, etc. -- lose their tension. Rust and corrosion take their toll. Fire and flood, car crashes, theft, loss, and confiscation ("legal" or not) take their toll.

The only point of yours I can see that I've proven is that someone of a legal age to buy guns prior to the 1994 ban might, conceivably -- if he had any way to raise the money -- have bought some pre-ban guns and magazines, as I did just barely manage to do, at a ruinous financial and social and personal cost.

I don't see why it should be a crime for anyone but the PHFLO to be able to replace, repair, or upgrade their aging weapons just because of a date on a calendar.

It would be okay with me personally if just about all law enforcement agencies and organizations were abolished or disbanded. They've never protected me worth a hoot, but they sure are good at keeping me from defending myself.

MCB

 

[fix]

18 is the legal age to purchase long arms in Georgia.

My 14 year old son is happy to know that folks like you will not care if ALL guns are banned so long as YOU get to keep those you already have. He feels great about the fact that older folks are willing to piss away his rights before he even reaches the age at which he can enjoy them. But hey, at least you got yours. Dumb kid. Should've been born sooner.

 

[GeneC]

MCB, all trivial excuses, a point is a point, don't grovel.

 

[fix]

Let me help you out.

You'll find my questions here: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1123863#post1123655

Tough I expect you'll dodge them again.

 

[GeneC]

So how old are you fix? Were you born before '72? Did you have the presence of mind to get a pre ban, or were you too busy smokin dope?


Listen, rifles can still be bought and always will be. Relax.