If you could change the U.S. Army standard issue pistol

[Vern Humphrey]

It might be germane to mention that the finest cavalry in American history - the horse soldiers of the Confederate army - favored the .36 caliber revolver.

Hmmmm.................?

That's kind of like saying the Texas Rangers favored the Colt Patterson. They "favored" it because it was all they could get (the Texas Navy managed to buy a couple of hundred, and when the Navy was disbanded, the revolvers went to the Rangers.) But when a former Texas Ranger (Captain Samuel Walker) got a chance to design a revolver for mounted combat, he didn't say, "Just duplicate the Patterson!"

In the late '40s, Colt produced a series of Dragoon revolvers -- somewhat smaller than Walker's design, but still quite large. Colt also produced pocket revolvers (the M1848 and M1849) in .31 caliber. The latter were quite popular with civilians.

In 1851, Colt produced the M1851 "Navy" revolver -- bigger than the pocket revolvers, and smaller than the Dragoons. It became highly popular, and a lot of people in the South bought them.

In 1860, Colt produced the ultimate cap-and-ball military Colt, the 1860 Army. Obviously, the Confederates weren't going to get many of those!

So the Confederates made a virtue out of necessity, and used the plentiful M1851s extensively.

 

[gazpacho]

It's not the caliber that is the problem, it's the training. If we assume the M9 is half as capable as the M4 and that our soldiers get half the training with the M9 as with the M4, then the soldier is only going to be a quarter as effective with the M9 as with the M4 (1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4). Now in reality, we know that the M9 is nowhere near half as good as the M4, and that our soldiers don't get near half the training time with the M9 as with the M4, so of course the performance of the M9 is going to look bad. Using the over simplified math above, you would have to train twice as much with the M9 just to be half as effective as the M4.

In this instance, substituting caliber for training is only going to help when a great deal of luck is involved. Poorly trained people are seldom referred to as lucky. If support troops are going to be carrying the M9 as their primary weapon (meaning the weapon they are most likely to be carrying) then they need to do the bulk of their weapons training with the M9.

 

[Berg01]

Tradition dictates to me it should be .45 ACP ball ammo, but practicality tells me that it should be loaded into Glock 21 pistols.

 

[Sean Smith]

but practicality tells me that it should be loaded into Glock 21 pistols.

Grip is too big. I'm 6'2" and can barely stand it... it is usable, but like holding a brick. What is some 5'2" female soldier supposed to do with it?

 

[MrAcheson]

If it were up to me, I'd look into getting around the Hague accords by using EFMJ, JSP, or other non-JHP bullet techologies. The russian 5.45 rifle bullet is hague approved and it uses these technologies, why can't we follow suit with pistol ammo?

If we're stuck with ball, I'd definitely like to move up to at least .40 S&W. Higher practical capacity than a .45 service arm and at least the bullet is slightly larger.

 

[Sean Smith]

The problem isn't really the Hague accords per se; they are pretty vague. Rather, WE have decided to follow a very strict interpretation of them that disallows the use of ANY expanding ammunition.

 

[The Rabbi]

The problem isn't really the Hague accords per se; they are pretty vague. Rather, WE have decided to follow a very strict interpretation of them that disallows the use of ANY expanding ammunition.

It's probably just as well. We get the brownie points for our morally-waged war and dont really give up much. As pointed out, pistols are not battlefield weapons nor used all that often. I seem to recall that the Swedes (of all people, inventors of the Swedish K) objected to the 5.56mm round as being inhumane. My impression is we told them to stuff it.

 

[Berg01]

Grip is too big. I'm 6'2" and can barely stand it... it is usable, but like holding a brick. What is some 5'2" female soldier supposed to do with it?

O.K., I agree the G21 has a grip that feels like a 2"x4" (compared to a 1911), but it is otherwise a sound firearm. As an alternate for folks who can't handle the G21 grip dimension, let Glock do a variation on the G36 slimline with a longer slide and grip (but keep the single-stack mag), qualify it, & you're covered. I'd still rather have the G21, or its variation, rather than keep the M9, but I'm not in charge, and my opinion doesn't hold much weight.

 

[pete f]

sometimes body size has little to do with grip comfort and hand strength is counter to grip size. In Golf, most seniors like a fatter grip size because as the muscle strength decreases so does muscle size and therefore fore the grip size needed increases. in other words, as you grip something, as the amount of padding inside the hand decreases, the size of the object being gripped can increase and still be comfortable

Both my wife and My Daughter have slim hands and both find 96/92 berettas and my paraord double stacks very comfortable to shoot. I on the other hand do not care for a Beretta grip nor do I like the Glock double stack grips. Both make my hand feel like it wants to bend where i have no joints.

frankly the grips that I have heard the least complaints about are hipowers or CZs. That little cut out at the back where your web fits seems to make it a grip almost everyone can use.

I think finding a gun everyone can use is more of a factor than what caliber today. If we had our druthers, a flat point bullet would seem to be the best way to deliver shock and tissue disruption without violating the GA. a kieth or WFP bullet is a proven game load and would work the same on people. These bullet profiles have been proven to hit hard with no expansion, this is a lead bullet, but a jacketed of the same shape would be just as effective.
https://secure.veracart.com/vc/merchants/castperform/68-md.jpg

 

[ruger357]

.45 Acp.

 

[Krag]

I agree the G21's grip is too big. I had grip reduction "surgery" performed on mine. On the other hand, while my Para 16.40 and 18.9 LDA hicap guns fit my hand like a second skin, I have found a single stack 1911 to be the most ill fitting of any of the pistols I have ever owned. So many people refer to it as ergonomic "perfection" but I found the Glock 17 size pistols much more comfortable to shoot. And I just adore the way my Beretta Elite feels.

When I used to complete with single stack 1911s I spent a lot of time and money trying to find the right combination of grips, grip/thumb safeties, checkering, frame alteration, etc. which would make them fit me better. It never happened which is one reason I switched to other types of pistols.

BTW, I also find the Browning HP is one of the worst feeling pistols of them all. Must be something endemic to JMB's design?

 

[BioDemon]

40 S&W. Has a great power/capacity. Stands between the 45 acp and 9mm.

 

[The Rabbi]

All the power of the 9mm and the capacity of the .45.

 

[dodging230grainers]

I just got that

 

[Elmer]

All the power of the 9mm and the capacity of the .45.

An don't forget more recoil and higher cost then 9 too! Yay!!

 

[medmo]

P25 Explosive Space Modulator..... if given the choice.

The 9mm fits the bill perfectly for the general application because of high capacity and light weight. It kind of goes along with the same theory as to why we use a light varmint round (pooch shooter?) in our battle rifles.

Now if I'm in a situation where the enemy occasionally attacks by binding themselves in sheets after getting totally obliterated on heroin and assaults insanely with machetes..... give me the 230grain back please.

 

[The Drew]

CZ p 01, It's already approved by NATO, lighter than the M9, more ergonomic for those with smaller hands (more women in the forces now...) Can accept lights and lasers, and has been through one hell of a torture test...

 

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

CZ p 01, It's already approved by NATO, lighter than the M9, more ergonomic for those with smaller hands (more women in the forces now...) Can accept lights and lasers, and has been through one hell of a torture test...

A very good point!

 

[molonlabe]

41 Action Express. Change the barrel and mag and you good to go with your 9mm

Historical Notes

The .41 Action Express (41 AE) was designed by Evan Whildin, vice president of Action Arms, in 1986. The cartridge is unique among modern handgun cartridges in that it has a rebated rim that will fit 9mm bolt faces and can be used in guns originally designed for 9mm without the need for extensive changes. The .41 AE is chambered in the Action Arms AT-88, which is a beefed up copy of the Czech CZ-75 auto pistol. The cartridge was originally developed with a 170 grain JHP bullet at 1130 fps initial velocity. However, the first commercial ammunition, loaded by Samson in Israel and imported into the U.S. has a 200 grain flat nose bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps, and a 180 grain JHP bullet, also at 1000 fps.
Source: Cartridges of the World

IMHO It died a silent death because gun manufactures would rather sell new guns rather than upgrades. Hence the .40 S&W