How would you have defended yourself in this instance?

[Browning]

I ran across this article and I was just wondering how most would go about defending themselves in this instance. From what I understand the security at the Fair has metal detectors and they won't let you bring a legally concealed firearm, a knife or pepper spray onto fair grounds.

News report on incident
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=518548&catid=14

WATCH VIDEO Father attacked at valleyfair for defending his daughter
http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=77076

Father badly beaten after trying to protect daughter at Valleyfair

Six men are out of Scott County jail following what police call a brutal assault on a father trying to protect his daughter.

Shakopee police say as the crowd was leaving Valleyfair Amusement Park around midnight on the 4th of July, the victim's daughter was confronted by two men.

"The 12-year-old daughter was either touched or slapped in the buttocks area," Scott County Attorney Patrick Ciliberto said. "The father confronted (the men) by yelling at them for what they had done to his daughter," he added.

Police say the two men called their friends, who were also in the park. The group of seven men and a juvenile then confronted the father.

"They beat him to the ground and then, the evidence that we have, when he was on the ground, they used their feet on him. They were kicking him in the face when he was down," Ciliberto said.

According to the criminal complaints, the men were stomping on the 41-year-old father as he lay on the ground, unconscious.

He suffered severe head injuries, including a fractured right orbital bone and possible subdural bleeding on the brain. "We don't know if there are permanent injuries yet," the County Attorney said.

Shakopee Police found the suspects in the parking lot. Seven of them were arrested and one man ran from the scene and police are still looking for him. Of the seven taken into custody, one was a 14-year-old.

Charges of third-degree felony assault were filed against Darris D. Evans, 20, of Brooklyn Park; Derry D. Evans, 19, Minneapolis; Devondre Evans-Lewis, 18, of Columbia Heights; Terry L. Arnold, 22, of Brooklyn Park; Andrew D. Shannon, 19, of Minneapolis; Anthony C. Gildersleeve, 20, Edina; and the unidentified juvenile.

Bail was set at $40,000 to $60,000 each and all have posted bail bonds, officials said

The Scott County Attorney says several of the men have criminal histories and they are all from the Twin Cities metro area.

So what do you do?

Just not go to places like that where you can't bring a weapon?

 

[springmom]

So, where is the "call 911 and report a sexual assault" option? Because that's what they did, and had the police been called, or security been called, things might have turned out a lot better for the dad...

Springmom

 

[doc540]

Sounds like "yelling" at a group of men while unarmed put him and his daughter at risk.

(I've been attacked and beaten by a gang before so I might not offer your average response here.)

"Threaten or touch my daughter...cops get called."

 

[joop]

agree with doc

 

[KelVarnson]

Remember, the father confronted two men, not seven. And maybe they were both a lot smaller than him, no way to know. It's not like he chose to take on a gang.

Part of the problem here, I'll bet, is that there were probably dozens of other people standing around watching this go down. People don't want to get involved, even when something VERY wrong is happening.

 

[Browning]

So, where is the "call 911 and report a sexual assault" option? Because that's what they did, and had the police been called, or security been called, things might have turned out a lot better for the dad...

Springmom

It's this option.

Just swallowed my pride, grabbed my daughter and left the scene and called the police.

First option on the list.

It's just worded differently.

 

[VegasOPM]

No knives?!? That must be new, as I used to go to that fair back in the 90's.

That is a tough call, my knee jerk reaction would have been to make it clear that the action was not appropriate. 99 times out of 100, nothing would have happened. When I can't legally carry a gun or a knife, I have a really nice steel ballpoint pen. I can even get on airplanes with it.

 

[Huckle2]

Shakopee police say as the crowd was leaving Valleyfair Amusement Park around midnight on the 4th of July, the victim's daughter was confronted by two men.

So were they in the parking lot?
Incredible no one offered to help? Says a great deal about the times. When are good people going to get feed up and stand up!

I will tell you this. Anyone touched my daughter inappropriately...things would have gone south very quickly for them. Yelling would not have been an option.
The guy got beat, he waited till the odds were against him.

Would I end up getting beat, most likely. But the story did not report injuries to the punks that started the whole thing.

Pisses me off just thinking about it!!!

 

[Professor Gun]

You put your hands on one of my kids and we are going to have some really serious issues (unless you are one of their teachers and they have disrupted your class ) and someone is likely to suffer injury. I am glad I have sons and not daughters in today's society, if I had a daughter I would be very protective, I am protective of my sons even though both are at a point that they would probably be able to take care of themselves (both are larger than me and involved in the martial arts).

I know it is risky to deal with this sort of scum, but I also believe one of the reasons for most of the outrageous behavior we see in society now is because most law abiding citizens are afraid to stand up for what is right.

 

[Claude Clay]

7 against 1
since i am not grasshopper, i would make like the invisible man.
i voted not going there...reluctantly. such is the society that has evolved in the last 20 years. they all have records but are free to pray on society whilst they are being rehabilitated at our cost: and painfully at that.

 

[3fgburner]

I have a nice oak walking stick with a brass eagle head. Can you say "bec-de-corbin", boys and girls?

 

[Joe Cool]

I feel bad for that Dad. Nothing gets the protective instincts up faster than any perceived threat or real one directed towards family. And then to get such a beating by 7 on 1 is utterly cowardly.

My dad once called it 'beer muscles' when you see people behaving in such a manner in public. They are either drunk, have a gang around the corner, or are armed or some combination of the three. Been there more than once, and my first priority is always to my kid's safety, assuming the worst will happen. Once my kids are safely out of harm's way, that is when I deal with it head on. As a parent you try to set an example of behavior, showing that you are thinking, and not just reacting. Dial 911, get names license plates, etc. I cannot say I would do that every time, and be so cool, especially if someone touched my kid inappropriately in my presence.

However, the situation does not always allow for all of that cool headed thinking. Once in Asia, we were in a public place and three hooligans seemed to want to look into my daughter's blue eyes. But REAL CLOSE UP. She got frightened and called me over. As I jogged over I noticed the position of all three, the location of the nearest embassy guard group and a wall I could back us up to so I would not be concerned with 360 degree attacks. The largest fellow was closest so I inserted myself by shoving in between he and my daughter. We then backed to the wall and edged towards the sentries with some appropriate chest shoving but no hand contact. As soon as we got the attention of a sentry the 3 men moved on, no more contacts. But we didn't move away until it was clear the 3 fellows had lost interest.

In the case mentioned herein, if the first two seemed like real scum of the earth, I would not likely confront right away, they have little to lose and are fine with violent escalation. I have observed that in the past too. Once at a stadium event, there were 5 or 6 drunken fools acting like jerks sitting immediately in front of three of us. I could see it was escalating, and that soon there would be more than the spraying water around and tossing popcorn backwards. I excused myself, walked out of sight, asked a security guard to monitor the situation. Sure as heck it soon did escalate with one of them on the end pestering my younger cousin, again with popcorn and spraying water. My cousin said a few words, and then two of them turned around, stood up and as my cousin stood up they shoved him backwards, hard. At that point the security guard walked over and threw them out of the event. The remaining 4 kept quiet and behaved after that. It's always hard to think several steps ahead, especially once someone riles you up, but I think it pays to try to do so.

 

[Old Grump]

Grab the kid and go, protection first

Try to get a good look so you can identify to the police

 

[FCFC]

Once at a stadium event, there were 5 or 6 drunken fools acting like jerks sitting immediately in front of three of us. I could see it was escalating, and that soon there would be more than the spraying water around and tossing popcorn backwards. I excused myself, walked out of sight, asked a security guard to monitor the situation. Sure as heck it soon did escalate with one of them on the end pestering my younger cousin, again with popcorn and spraying water. My cousin said a few words, and then two of them turned around, stood up and as my cousin stood up they shoved him backwards, hard. At that point the security guard walked over and threw them out of the event. The remaining 4 kept quiet and behaved after that. It's always hard to think several steps ahead, especially once someone riles you up, but I think it pays to try to do so.

Good work, Joe Cool.

Except for part of your last sentence. It's not really that hard. The goal is to win the encounter.

 

[MedWheeler]

I selected the first, though I probably would not have actually left the scene entirely. My cellphone goes where I go, so probably would have simply re-entered the fair or found another way to keep a vantage point while I waited on the local constabulary. Cellphone pics might also have come into play if strategically possible to aid in later identification.
So many people here asking for "Monday-morning quarterbacking".. need to remember that none of us can truly answer this without having actually been there.

 

[doc540]

So, the guy is unarmed and some here would suggest he get into a confrontation with two punks (regardless of size) who are low-life enough to touch his 12 year old daughter?

This is, of course, assuming they weren't armed, and he should have known that how?

There's a lot to this story we don't know here, and I'll do what I have to do to protect my daughter, but confronting two punks when I'm unarmed is not at the top of my "things to do" list.

 

[Cosmoline]

Snuck a weapon into the fair anyway and when these guys grabbed her then....

Your poll is very poorly worded. This particular option is the only one linked to a firearm. What about bringing a weapon into the fair and killing them as they ATTACKED YOU. You seem to be suggesting that shooting them for grabbing the girl would be appropriate.

But as a general matter I avoid fairs and amusement parks. I'm not amused by them.

 

[bobby68]

agree with cosmoline and many others here.

best daughter has a live father than a proud father. not that you do nothing but obviously the father in question might regret his own choice.

 

[Browning]

Your poll is very poorly worded. This particular option is the only one linked to a firearm. What about bringing a weapon into the fair and killing them as they ATTACKED YOU. You seem to be suggesting that shooting them for grabbing the girl would be appropriate.

It wasn't worded poorly, I meant exactly what it said.

Here in Texas a charge of Indeceny With A Child is a 2nd or 3rd degree felony.

That means that a CHL holder who's in a dark parking lot with two unsavory characters who are intent on committing a felony (sexually assaulting/molesting his 12 year old daughter) would be able to use lethal force if necessary to bring it to a halt. The fact that they'd more than likely respond violently to the fathers defense of his daughter just means that he'd be even more justified in using lethal force if they didn't immediately back down.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm

§ 21.11. INDECENCY WITH A CHILD. (a) A person commits
an offense if, with a child younger than 17 years and not the
person's spouse, whether the child is of the same or opposite sex,
the person:
(1) engages in sexual contact with the child or causes
the child to engage in sexual contact; or
(2) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire
of any person:
(A) exposes the person's **** or any part of the
person's genitals, knowing the child is present; or
(B) causes the child to expose the child's ****
or any part of the child's genitals.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor:
(1) was not more than three years older than the victim
and of the opposite sex;
(2) did not use duress, force, or a threat against the
victim at the time of the offense; and
(3) at the time of the offense:
(A) was not required under Chapter 62, Code of
Criminal Procedure, to register for life as a sex offender; or
(B) was not a person who under Chapter 62 had a
reportable conviction or adjudication for an offense under this
section.
(c) In this section, "sexual contact" means the following
acts, if committed with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual
desire of any person:
(1) any touching by a person, including touching
through clothing, of the ****, breast, or any part of the genitals
of a child; or
(2) any touching of any part of the body of a child,
including touching through clothing, with the ****, breast, or any
part of the genitals of a person.
(d) An offense under Subsection (a)(1) is a felony of the
second degree and an offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a felony of
the third degree.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/txchlaws.htm

DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.

(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31;

(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and

(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor.

PC §9.33.

Defense of Third Person

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

 

[brighamr]

Someone else touched on this, but the guy in this case forgot a major piece of strategy: Don't wait for them to attack you on their own ground.


If you're going to stand up to anyone for any reason, do and then end it there. Case in point: if this guy had confronted the two animals, he now has two options: fight those two or grab the kid and get the heck out of town.

by him waiting until the two could come back with 5 more... he effectively let the tables turn.

It's much better to attack when needed, than sit idly and wait to be attacked.


How would I handle this? i don't have kids, but I have nieces and nephews. If someone touched any of them in an inappropriate manner, i would immediately begin screaming (attract security guards, and or other people). Something along the lines of "Let go of my niece/daughter/etc!" or better yet "kidnapping!" the idea is something to draw attention.

If the two just took off running (which is likely), then I grab my "kids" and leave. If they stay, there are several witnesses now and only two of them.

Fisticuffs aren't always a great solution, due to the number of ways animals cheat in a fight (example: brass knuckles, or other objects snuck into the park; kicking while down, etc). then again, if the guy just up and left, all 8 animals would be on the streets doing this again with no punishment.

Unfortunately we don't have proper punishment where it is due in all cases. I think animals like these should be molested in prison for at least 10 years without the option of parole. JMHO

BTW - it is truly sad, but I am of the opinion: "If I can't ccw, they don't deserve my business". My nieces/nephews love to go shooting, swimming in a national forest lake, or atv riding. All of which we can do while I am armed. If they ever want to go to a theme park, I will search for one that allows ccw, or I'll call the rest of my brothers and go in a group. Still not completely safe, but more is better in some situations.

 

[Imaginos]

IMHO The risks associated with going to places like amusement parks, fairs, and carnivals far outweigh the entertainment benefit of those places. The State Fair of Texas is a prime example. I spent two years working in that pest hole when I was young and stupid, and I have never gone back. Even after they changed the rules so CHL holders are allowed to be armed, I just can't see the benefits of putting myself and my family at risk by going to that side of town just for "entertainment".

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

I voted option one. But I would have told the toucher hands off! And then gotten my children to safety and called police. You have to look for a way to put distance between them and your kids FIRST. If that is not possible then don't wait, ATTACK. The first with the most wins. I always take a cane/walking stick with me to anything with mixed crowds. I don't to church or a gunshow unless there is a no weapons policy. And that brings me to this statement.

From what I understand the security at the Fair has metal detectors and they won't let you bring a legally concealed firearm, a knife or pepper spray onto fair grounds.

If you have to go through a metal detector to go to the stinkin fair, you don't want to take your children there. I personally don't care for the rides at fairs (not enough proper maintainence for me). But the displays of antique engines is pretty cool. But not cool enough to get me to go.

Jim

 

[Geno]

I don't go where I can't carry.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Look, folks.

This is NOT your little brother's Internet here.

Any further inappropriate, juvenile, bloodthirsty, illegal or immoral posts and this one is done. And the poster will be getting some staff attention as well. I am tired of the nonsense that's been going on in S&T lately, if you are going to post here, then do it in an adult and responsible manner.

lpl/nc

 

[Riss]

Regardless. Gun is in the car with handcuffs and a beatin stick. Call 911, defend yourself as necessary and lets the boys n blue take em out.