How would you have defended yourself in this instance?

[LongRider]

Where in the US can you not be armed? Remember our biggest weapon is our brain. Consider other weapons for gun free zones. I always carry a knife, mechanical pencil, key chain, a hi lum flashlight, always in my car is a cane, an over sized wrench a fish club sometimes a bat along with a crow bar chains and assorted tools. I always carry my cane in gun free zones. It is not a weak substitute for a gun, I can assure you that with proper use within fifteen feet a cane will prevail over someone reaching for their gun, so will a properly deployed knife. Point is we have other options, use them, be prepared, train, know your tools, and how to use them. My first choice is to leave but truth is I know I am more likely to say something in this scenario. It is just not OK. That said the first act of violence towards me or my child would have resulted in maximum force of violence. Of course call 911 if possible they should be there in time to collect the bodies makes sure it is not you as it was in this case. Stay armed, Stay aware, Stay safe

 

[Browning]

Any further inappropriate, juvenile, bloodthirsty, illegal or immoral posts and this one is done. And the poster will be getting some staff attention as well.

I'm kind of confused, everything I posted is completely within the law. How can that possibly be confused with being immoral or illegal since I posted the laws that would apply within my state.

I'd be more than happy to start off by stopping by using pepper spray or some other non-lethal alternative, but if that didn't work then using lethal force to stop a sexual assault is the only other alternative.

Defending a 12 year old girl from a pack of predators intent on sexually molesting her isn't bloodthirsty, illegal or immoral. Especially since I haven't made any comments essentially saying anything even remotely bloodthirsty (such as: 'I hope one of these kind of freaks tries this with me around' or some other chest beating bravado meant to make me out to be some sort of badass that's just waiting with bated breath for something like this to happen so that I can do something about it).

I'm kind of baffled as to your definition of 'bloodthirsty'.

 

[Cosmoline]

Here in Texas a charge of Indeceny With A Child is a 2nd or 3rd degree felony.

Slapping a teenaged girl on the backside is a felony in Texas? I think you're trying to make some bizarre point with your poll rather than actually give people a realistic range of options.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Browning,

What you don't see on the thread are the posts I have already deleted- posts suggesting things like going to your car, getting a gun and settling the score, or following the miscreants home with a mob of friends and doing the same thing. I am not leaving that sort of thing visible here for the reasons I stated.

There is nothing at all wrong with the original post, or with the mature and reasoned responses to it which remain in the body of the thread. But I am simply not going to tolerate inappropriate, illegal or immoral material here on S&T (or anywhere else on THR I happen across it). And as much as I dislike doing it, I will make that happen the hard way if I have to.

All the information anyone needs to guide their conduct in S&T is in the posts stickied at the top of the forum. It's obvious some folks don't read that, any more than they read the rest of the forum rules. I have been overly lenient lately about yelling at people who failed to follow the rules, perhaps. And conduct here has strayed from the established standard as a result.

No more...

lpl/nc

 

[Browning]

Slapping a teenaged girl on the backside is a felony in Texas?

It is when you're doing it for the purposes of sexual gratification. Did you even read the law? Don't go groping underage girls anywhere near where their bra or their underwear would cover and you'll probably never have to worry about this law or a relatives response (in Texas or anywhere else for that matter).

Being an adult that shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Besides she wasn't teenaged, she was 12.

I think you're trying to make some bizarre point with your poll rather than actually give people a realistic range of options.

Such as?

 

[Browning]

There is nothing at all wrong with the original post, or with the mature and reasoned responses to it which remain in the body of the thread.

And the poster will be getting some staff attention as well.

Lee, why this comment then?

 

[armedandsafe]

Lee Lapin ... Thank you.

Pops

 

[Fred Fuller]

That means ANYONE ELSE who posts inappropriate, illegal or immoral material on this or any other thread in S&T. Poster= one who posts, or replies.

You are the OP- the ORIGINAL poster. Your thread is still running. Your OP is still there. Your subsequent posts are still there. You have no PM from me in your inbox. All these things are indications that, for you, all is well.

Clearer???

lpl/nc

 

[Browning]

That means ANYONE ELSE who posts inappropriate, illegal or immoral material on this or any other thread in S&T. Poster= one who posts, or replies.

You are the OP- the ORIGINAL poster. Your thread is still running. Your OP is still there. Your subsequent posts are still there. You have no PM from me in your inbox. All these things are indications that, for you, all is well.

Clearer???

lpl/nc

Yep, I get it.

The wording made me think that I was being singled out for some reason and I was kind of unclear about why.

Good enough.

 

[GRB]

Remember, the father confronted two men, not seven.

Remember he was with his 12 year old daughter. He should not have CONFRONTED anyone. He put his daughter in further jeopardy by doing what he did. If had had the oportunity to leave and seek assistance, I think he should have done just that; and of course he could have raised holy hell while doing so in the hopes of gaining attention and maybe support. As it was, he got an unepected consequence of his bravado.

Things like that happen in the heat of the moment though no matter how much we second guess here.

All the best,
GB

 

[Corporal K]

I'm never a fan of blaming the victim, but hanging around a city amusement park until midnight with kids in tow wasn't the most safety-conscious decision. Low-lifes come out en masse that late.

 

[Defensory]

Punks like this move around in groups, especially when at large public gatherings like fairs etc. So if you see a couple guys who look like trouble, always assume they've got several other cohorts in the area.

Watch how you talk to these types, especially when you're by yourself. It doesn't take much to trigger them, so talking tough will do nothing but get you seriously hurt, as happened to the guy in the OP's story.

The daughter got slapped or touched once on the butt. Since this obviously wasn't blatant groping or an attempted rape, violent countermeasures against them at that point wouldn't be a good idea, unless you enjoy being arrested and going to jail.

The best way to handle it would have been for the guy to take his daughter by the hand, without saying anything and without giving menacing looks to the scumbags---then walk away and find a police officer.

Don't act like a "tough guy", especially when you're alone like he was. Of course, if your daughter is physically attacked, you do what you must to defend her, with whatever you have available.

However, since the girl wasn't in physical danger, he should've done like I previously suggested.

 

[cpttango30]

If it were two guys I would pick the smallest one and start trying to break every living bone in his body. When Perp two trys to jump in a good old field goal kick to the mommy and daddy button would remove him from the fight real quick like. I dislike violance but you mess with my kids or wife buddy you are going to learn real quick what my pudgy butt can do.

At the time of the assult they're was no threat of boddly harm or death. So i don't need a need to use up 8 good bullets because damn they are getting expensive.

 

[LongRider]

I'm never a fan of blaming the victim, but hanging around a city amusement park until midnight with kids in tow wasn't the most safety-conscious decision. Low-lifes come out en masse that late.

Absolutely right the idea that a citizen thinks that they can be out after thug imposed curfew. Who did that idiot think he was that his tax dollars and entry fee to support an public amusement area entitled him to reasonable use during regular business hours. Moron probably assumes he can just go into any part of his community at any hour he has business there without permission from the local gang bangers

 

[Z-Michigan]

I'm surprised to be in the minority here. From what little description there is, I think the father acted appropriately. He yelled at two teens for doing something clearly inappropriate, and illegal (albeit rarely prosecuted), to his 12 yo daughter. He did not (apparently) run after them, threaten them with a beating or any other assault, or intend to be dealing with a mob of 7 boys instead of just 2.

It would have been much better if he had been armed and skilled, but it's not clear that he had a CCW license, and even if he did it clearly would have been unlawful for him to carry there. If you're going to bother getting the license, you need to obey the law, even when it's stupid.

Had he not said anything, what kind of lesson would that have been for his daughter - that she's a sex object for any aggressive boy? And for the teens - that they can get away with groping? These types who get away with one thing rapidly escalate to the next.

Mostly I'm just scared by the number of these mob beatings by teens all over the US.

I will also say that while avoiding these types of places due to safety concerns is a very practical and realistic approach, it is a depressingly sad day in the US when you can't take your children to a public fair intended for their amusement without something like this happening. It bodes poorly for the country's future.

Obviously, the father's choice worked out poorly here. But I think a lot of the posts are Monday morning quarterbacking.

I do think this is a wonderful example of where the fair facility/company should be sued for failing to provide security. I personally believe that whenever lawfully carried CCW handguns are prohibited, the owner of the property should be held strictly liable for any and all harm to anyone legally on the property, who possibly could have defended themself if not for the CCW prohibition.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Z-Michigan:
Had he not said anything, what kind of lesson would that have been for his daughter - that she's a sex object for any aggressive boy? And for the teens - that they can get away with groping? These types who get away with one thing rapidly escalate to the next.

My advice was for him to keep quiet, take his daughter's hand, and find a police officer. If he had done that, he wouldn't have been beaten nearly to death.

Finding a police officer and reporting the perpetrators is NOT doing nothing. It is doing the BEST and SMARTEST thing. It would teach his daughter to always do the smart thing, which is getting the police involved ASAP.

Instead he chose to be a macho-man tough guy, displayed abysmal situational awareness, and ended up almost getting himself killed.

P.S.--The girl was touched or slapped on the butt ONCE. That's NOT "groping". A "tough guy" response wasn't called for. Do the right thing, contact police immediately.

 

[Kowycz]

I agree with Z-Michigan on this one. I think that I would have reacted exactly the same way as the father. I don't believe he was trying to act 'macho' at all. Furthermore to everyone that is saying they would have either been capable of fighting them off or doing the "right thing" the truth is you have no idea what the right reaction is for any given situation. Everyone always seems to choose the "right thing" but it is always after the fact. People react to the situations at hand, there isn't an almost infinite amount of time for you to decide what to do in these different scenarios.

The girl was touched or slapped on the butt ONCE. That's NOT "groping". A "tough guy" response wasn't called for. Do the right thing, contact police immediately.

This is his 12 year old daughter we are talking about. How is he being a "tough guy" by addressing the 2 people who just slapped his 12 year old daughter on the butt?

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Z-Michigan,

These are NOT teens or boys.

Charges of third-degree felony assault were filed against Darris D. Evans, 20, of Brooklyn Park; Derry D. Evans, 19, Minneapolis; Devondre Evans-Lewis, 18, of Columbia Heights; Terry L. Arnold, 22, of Brooklyn Park; Andrew D. Shannon, 19, of Minneapolis; Anthony C. Gildersleeve, 20, Edina

These are legal adults and should know acceptable behavior.

Jim

 

[JWarren]

Add my vote in the same position as Z-Michigan.

I would have confronted them.

I don't expect anyone here to agree with me, and that is OK. But for the sake of this, I will explain my line of thinking.

There can be all the arm-chair quarterbacking that we want to do, but I know myself. I know that if I saw my daughter getting manhandled, I am going to confront them-- to the extent that they know that my daughter is in MY protection.

I don't have to threaten anyone. I don't have to throw a punch.

But I DO have a need to protect my family. Moreover, I want my daughter to KNOW that I will be there. I want my daughter to KNOW that I'll protect her.

Again, I am not saying I'd go in verbally threatening or becoming physical. But I will stand my ground and remove my daughter from the threat.

From my experience, often that is enough to be considered a "challenge" or "disrespect."

I can't do anything about that.

If they chose to attack me and I am-- as this story goes-- unarmed, I'll do my best to get my daughter and/or other family to run and get help. I'll do my best to defend myself. That's all I can do. I am a pretty decent fighter, but I also know my limitations. I know that anything I know is heavily mitigated by the sheer number of attackers.

I expect that I would do fairly well in defending myself, but unless security gets there, I'd end up in trouble.

And there it is. Not the best answer, and not something I am suggesting for others. But to thine own self be true.... I know me.


-- John

 

[Defensory]

Posted by springmom:
So, where is the "call 911 and report a sexual assault" option? Because that's what they did, and had the police been called, or security been called, things might have turned out a lot better for the dad...

Springmom hit the nail on the head. This is absolutely what the victim should have done.

As a woman herself, as well as a mother, I value Springmom's opinion more highly than internet tough guys, who think confronting and yelling at multiple young "toughs" you don't know is a "smart" way to handle things.

The victim handled it the "macho man" way, displayed no situational awareness whatsoever,and you see what that got him---a trip to the hospital in critical condition and possible permanent brain damage.

Then of course, he could've kept his mouth shut, took his daughter by the hand, then walked away and reported the incident immediately to police. Which would've saved him from a life-threatening beating, and the punks would've been dealt with by the police.

It's a no-brainer how he should've handled it.

 

[falnovice]

I think it is really easy, sitting here in a chair with a cold beer...safe...secure...calm...to monday morning quarterback this guy. "We" just didn't walk out of an amusement park, chatting with our kid about what was the best,...maybe yawning a bit cause it was a long day....when someone crowds our daughter and grabs her butt.
Yeah, sure. Everyone is going to be super calm and rational. Right.

My take,
I would have beat the everloving crap out of those two before they ever had the chance to call their friends. No macho, no bravado and no BS. I draw very few lines in the sand, but my wife and child are the big line. There aren't many things in life that make me go from 0 to violence but this is it.

I doubt very much this guy thought he was being macho....he was just doing what I think most guys would do in his situation. Though I would add my personal philosophy: If you aren't willing to fight, don't even THINK about yelling. If you ARE GOING to fight, then don't bother yelling.

 

[roo_ster]

Scum that lays a hand on family in that manner will be accosted and reprimanded and then reported to the authorities after moving to a (hopefully) more secure location.

If they decide to then gather up more scum and want to assault me, it is perfectly legal for me, in my state, to be effectively armed at the State Fair and to prevent injury to self and others.

 

[JWarren]

I doubt very much this guy thought he was being macho....he was just doing what I think most guys would do in his situation.

Agreed. Many toss out the obligatory "Internet Tough Guy" or "Macho" comments when they encounter those who -- for whatever reason-- would not act as they do.



-- John

 

[seed]

I do think this is a wonderful example of where the fair facility/company should be sued for failing to provide security. I personally believe that whenever lawfully carried CCW handguns are prohibited, the owner of the property should be held strictly liable for any and all harm to anyone legally on the property, who possibly could have defended themself if not for the CCW prohibition.

Excellent point Z-Michigan. Thought this should be repeated for those who may have missed your last paragraph.

Another thing which could help is the fair blocking the entrance to those who choose to look the part, much like bars are doing more and more these days. Where I live and work, the bars who post and enforce very simple (and effective) rules have virtually no problems versus the bars down the street who don't. These rules are basically tailor made to exclude "gangsta-wannabes" and include such things as no sports jerseys, no plain white t-shirts, no baggy or "urban-wear" clothes, no wife-beaters, etc. At first when these rules became popular, I was against most of them because I didn't like anyone telling me or anyone else how to dress. But judging by the success rate of drastic incident-reduction and by how many idiots/hard-core wannabes are turned away from these places and my opinion has forever changed. Now, more and more bars are adopting these types of rules and the thug-wannabes are slowly, but surely going elsewhere. And so is the unnecessary bad-vibes and violence they bring. Good riddance.

 

[ugaarguy]

Absolutely right the idea that a citizen thinks that they can be out after thug imposed curfew. Who did that idiot think he was that his tax dollars and entry fee to support an public amusement area entitled him to reasonable use during regular business hours. Moron probably assumes he can just go into any part of his community at any hour he has business there without permission from the local gang bangers

Let's look at reality. The police / sheriff's department can't be everywhere. If the amusement area lacks adequate private security don't pat the entry fee. Find a safer activity for you and your daughter to enjoy.

However, let's leave the tactics of the response, and rewind to some pre-planning or strategy if you will. You know you want to enjoy the location and would like to stay out late and enjoy the summer weather & activities with your daughter. You know the thugs rise with the moon. So don't go alone. Bring another family, whether it's your sibling(s) and their their child(ren), your daughter's friends and their parents, or whatever. Bring a co-worker, uncle, family friend, etc who doesn't have kids - an extra adult without a kid to monitor can be a big help. Get a map of the park before hand if possible, at the gate if nothing else. If the two families want to split and do different things that's fine, just plan for it. Meet at regular times at a designated place. Get those little FRS radios so you can alert the other group if trouble arises. Show the kids the security / customer service locations on the map, and make sure they know to go to one if they get split off from the group. Make the kids carry a map if applicable.

If trouble arises get the kids to the car or safe location and call the police on the cell phone immediately. If you have several adults have one group get the kids out of the park, and have one or two other adults hang back and keep an eye on the thug(s) from a distance so they don't get away.

Use the group to your advantage. Have the adults walk with the kids between them. This reduces paths for the thug(s) to approach the kids. Scan the crowd and watch their eyes. If you notice someone taking an interest in one of the kids alert the other adults. Change your route to get more space between you and them. Use brief but respectful eye contact to let the thug(s) know you're aware of their presence. Hopefully the group size makes the thug(s) move on. If it doesn't at least you have 3 or 4 adults, rather than the 1 against 7 odds this dad encountered.