How would you have defended yourself in this instance?

[GEM]

Why do people assume that they can beat the crap out of two people so easily? One thing I picked up in the Insights DFK class, is that 'unarmed punks' can produce a knife and slice you significantly quite quickly.

That was from a demo when a big guy said no one messes with me because I'm so big. The smaller instructor stood in front of him in a fake confrontation and in a flash 'stabbed' him several times in his physically fit belly.

Of course, if you have the spider sense, you can handle both with such happening to you.

 

[Titan6]

Your kids don't have to hate you. There are plenty of places to go to have fun with them where you can carry.

 

[tepin]

You should run from these guys...

 

[JWarren]

You should run from these guys...

That's one opinion.


-- John

 

[Z-Michigan]

Well after seeing the photos - I probably would have done option #1 at the time, followed by option #5 from that day onward. I was picturing people more like teenage punks, I guess.

Time to get a minigun carry permit... and call Dillon Aero. [No need to explain the NFA reasons why this won't actually happen]

 

[GRB]

I'm surprised to be in the minority here. From what little description there is, I think the father acted appropriately. He yelled at two teens for doing something clearly inappropriate, and illegal (albeit rarely prosecuted), to his 12 yo daughter. He did not (apparently) run after them, threaten them with a beating or any other assault, or intend to be dealing with a mob of 7 boys instead of just 2.

Yelling at them while seeking help and calling the police would have been beter, don't you think. As it was he stayed around long enough for the thugs to get help. Somehow it seems to me that his logic was not functioning as well as it might have done.

All the best,
GB

 

[tepin]

Keep in mind that ValleyFair is POSTED - NO GUNS! I dont read so well but most good folks do.

IMO: Shooting 5 of 6 would have been justified, if someone had come forward....

 

[brownie0486]

I'm fully aware that many would not be in a position to confront the perp who touched her due to health issues or lack of training, so their responses are probably appropriate for them.

I don't have kids, but if I was with my 12 year old niece and that happened, there would be immediate repercussions for the one who touched her inappropriately, probably starting with something verbal he'd understand immediately.

Would it be dangerous to confront him? You bet. The world is a dangerous place, get used to it or never leave home. I will not live in fear of going anywhere I want, when I want. Thats probably due in part because I worked some bad sections of major cities as an investigator and had to deal with it or not do my job [ read, not make the living I did ]. I chose to work that type of job and it's rubbed off that I'll not fear for going someplace like a fair for fear of what might happen or whats happened in the past.

Calling the cops wold summon a few officers who would take the report, question the perp/s and be on their way. It's a he said, she said at that point. They'll deny, you'll counter, the report gets written and everyone is likely told to move along with no further action.

This is his 12 year old daughter we are talking about. How is he being a "tough guy" by addressing the 2 people who just slapped his 12 year old daughter on the butt?

I agree, there are people who won't confront for fear of reprisal, and confronting ones actions on a 12 year old is not being a tough guy, it's being an adult that has a pair and isn't afraid to challenge when it's deemed necessary.

Look folks, we live in a country where the dirt bags get away with this kind of crap every day as they are rarely challenged by a citizen out of fear for their safety. These dirtballs have likely done this before, and probably worse and have not been challenged.

Back in the good old days of the 50's and 60's, more people would have immediately challenged such actions of another. Now today, we've seen society want to frown on confrontations at all costs. Thats one of the reasons they can get away with this type of action, they know they are unlikely to be challenged by anyone.

If you can't fight, call the cops. If you haven't got the stomach to stand up for whats right and whats wrong in this world, stay home and live in fear you might have to put up with something you don't like if you leave the house. This discussion and many answers here would have been a whole lot different if it was back in the day when people stood up for what is right, and hadn't been programmed that confrontation at any time is bad.

There are risks involved in everything we do. The guy was enjoying the day with his daughter. She has every right to be free to have fun, and not be molested or touched inappropriately while doing so in a public place. The dad paid the price, there were options he obviously didn't take prior to this incident. Thats his mistake here, not that he confronted the perp/s.

Brownie

 

[JWarren]

Well said, brownie0486.



-- John

 

[Dumptruck]

All of them posted 60k bond. Are you kidding me? If I approached a man with 6 of my buddies and stomped him like that, it would be because someone wanted to murder this poor guy. The amount of damage they did to him (potentially permanent) should be considered attempted murder.

 

[Dumptruck]

Also, I have been put in situations similar to this. I am a white guy dating a black girl and for some reason thugs can't deal with that concept. They think it is cute to come up and start trouble. I have actually had to show them my pistol when 8 guys threatened to beat me when my fiancee and I were in a parking garage.

I can only hope there is a hell so the guys who did that to the father can pay the true cost for being the lowest form of human scum.

 

[onebigelf]

I have black belts in Tae Kwon do, Tang Soo do, Aikido, and belts in Issyn Ryu and small circle JuiJitsu. 7 on 1, you are probably going to lose without a weapon. Best bet is to permanently cripple the first guy you can get your hands on and hope the rest back off. Beating 7 guys, even with extreme amounts of luck is either the stuff of movies or requires extreme stupidity on the part of your attackers. I'm 6'4" and 230lbs, with a lifetime of training and experience. I wouldn't want to try it. That's why with all that martial arts training I still have a CCW. So that I can rely on the American Martial Art. ClickClick bang!

John

 

[springmom]

I take real issue with this. As a mother her job is not the same as a fathers. Have you raised any daughters? I have two of them who grew up healthy and well protected. Have you raised any kids? Have you taught them to bow down to bullies and accept being molested? If so may I have the CPS number in your area. Any man who would stand by and allow his baby girl to be molested is not a father. At best he is a sperm donor. At worst he is a neglectful parent. A father's safety and well being is totally irrelevant when it comes to protecting his child. Only the child's well being is relevant. It is not about being an internet tough guy. I read dads talking about their duty and responsibility, their obligation to their children. It is not about what should have been done. Any Father knows what was needed. The only thing open for discussion is how it should be done.

And I certainly respect your desire and intent to protect your daughters. The question is, what's the best, safest (for you AND her) and most productive way to do it? I may be just a mother, but I would want to get my daughter the heck out of there and away from these thugs and to safety. That doesn't necessarily mean leaving the park; it would be better to find someone doing security (around here, such folks are often off duty LEO) and get some backup.

Even a cop doesn't go into a fight with six guys without calling for help.

I don't know about y'all, but if you call 911 around here and say "my daughter's been molested and we're surrounded by the perps" I daresay you really WILL get a quick response. If you already have a off duty cop there on site, why would you ignore that resource and go it alone? It just doesn't make sense.

Finally, just a word about mothers and fathers. I daresay that any of my four children would tell you that their mother taught them every bit as much as their dad about defending themselves and standing up for themselves. It is unhelpful to indulge in stereotypical roles of Nurturing Mother and Guardian Father. In real life, a good mother does both, I did, and the implication that a mother does not is obnoxious.

Springmom

 

[brownie0486]

It is unhelpful to indulge in stereotypical roles of Nuturing Mother and Guardian Father. In real life, a good mother does both, I did, and the implication that a mother does not is obnoxious.

springmom,

Very few mothers are going to be anything but nurturing [ you did mean nurturing and not nutering [ as in nuetering ] right? You ma'am are exception, not the rule in that regard statistically.

It's not really a stereotypical statement at all by males responding here.

On another note, in the wilds, the females are more protective of their offspring than the males, but in our human world, thats not generally been the norm for eons.

Brownie

 

[springmom]

Brownie: *gigglesnort*. Fixed the typo. Freud could have a field day.....

But seriously, and not to take the thread too far afield (at least any farther than it already is, lol) I'd disagree. Moms will certainly fight back to protect their young when there is real and serious danger present. They're just not likely to mano-a-mano at other times. There was a lady here in Houston, not long ago, who died fighting with a guy who was trying to steal her car that had her baby in the back seat. I *do* think that you might be able to make the statistical case that moms are less likely to get into a situation where, were they a man, they might be inclined to use physical force. IOW, we tend to avoid trouble more, if possible. That too is a good and intelligent strategy and tactic

My point, to put it differently: it isn't specifically a manly thing to teach your children self defense, nor to defend them. It isn't NOT a manly thing to call the cops when faced with a crowd of thugs, or at least get backup from the security detail nearby. The best option was to find security (again, around here at least, that's going to be an off duty LEO for a situation like the OP's) and get backup. Go in alone and you're going to get the snot beaten out of you, and how do you protect your child then? What if this bunch, having cratered dad's head, decided their next project was the girl? See where I'm going? The child's safety is FIRST. Dealing with perps is SECOND. And to deal with the perps, get backup.

It's logical, it's smart, and dad might be walking around instead of in a hospital if he had.

Just to clarify: I didn't say it was typical of all you guys. I took issue with one post by one guy. That's all.

/sidetrack.

Springmom

 

[brownie0486]

I understand your thinking and agree with it completely.

Discretion is the better part of valor, sorta speak

Stay safe out there everyone.

Brownie

 

[doc2rn]

I am kinda in~tune with the rest.

I would have made it very hard the offenders to escape, but I would have contacted LEO as I secured my daughter's safety.
This is why I carry 24/7 -365.
I would also like to quote my favorite Mod

1911Tuner
Moderator
Shoot/No Shoot

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Compelled to respond, even though it's probably best that I stay out of this type of discussion.

First...Anyone who has known me here knows that I'm not a banning moderator. Second...I absolutely believe in the right to self defense and defense for those within my sphere by whatever means necessary. Third...
I believe strongly that there is a responsibility that comes with what essentially the power of life and death, and that power should be wielded
justly and carefully.

If I believe that I or anyone in my household is in immediate deadly jeopardy,
I will not hesitate. If I feel that anyone is only there to steal, and either complies with my demand to stand still...or if he/she/they turn to run...or
otherwise stand down, I will not fire. Killing is a serious thing...even if "He needed killin'." It's just too damned hard, and...as a poster on the thread that got this started remarked...it will have a deep and lasting effect on you...even if he DID need killin'. Even if there is absolutely no choice in the matter, you'll find yourself agonizing and wondering what you could have done differently. Wishing that it COULD have been different. You'll find yourself raging at a dead man, asking him: "What the hell was wrong with you? I had a gun pointed at you and you kept coming! Why didn't you stop?
Why did you make me do that to you?" And finally, you'll find yourself hating him for the position that he put you in, because his worries are over...but yours just keep eating at you.

People...This ain't a joke and it sure ain't Hollywood. Please, consider carefully this power that you hold in your hand...and not just the legal implications.

 

[Big Del]

Once again it kind of sickens me that in a crowd of people know body stepped in to break it up. Somebody slapping my daughter in an offensive way is going to be very hard to turn the other cheek. In this case it may could of been a hate crime? That is a pretty severe beating there should be some real charges filed.

 

[LongRider]

I do respect you stance my post was not directed to you. It was a response the snide internet tough guys crack. Regarding you I assume you are a great mom and a woman. You posted what I believe is correct and appropriate for you to do. If in fact it was possible to do that. I found no fault with anything you said. Sounds like what I would want my wife to do. At the risk of continuing to be obnoxious in my world men & women are not the same mentally emotionally physically or spiritually so we have different roles in life. IMO you and my wife will never be as suited to dealing with a pair of thugs physically as well as a man. My role is different than what what I would ask of my wife. As soon as my child gets groped I have something to say. As you said my wifes job is to retreat to a safe spot and dial 911. Unlike the victim in this scenario as stated in my original post I am much better prepared my .45 is not the only tool in my tool box. That does not mean to say both parents don't teach their children to stand up for themselves that is NOT what I said. Nor as I said was any of my post directed at you

I don't know about y'all, but if you call 911 around here and say "my daughter's been molested and we're surrounded by the perps" I daresay you really WILL get a quick response.

Around here my experience is that people called 911 when my niece was being mauled and dragged into a van. LEO arrived in a half hour. She was found four days later in a dumpster covered in blood urine and feces. After she had been raped non stop by a group of gang bangers for four days and nights in every one of her orifices. They stuck guns in her mouth, rectum and vagina as well as lit cigars cigarettes and knives. They cut and burned her all over her body, She was a stunningly loving young woman when they did that. It took years over a decade for her to get whole again. Less time than they spent in prison. So no I won't ever wait for LEO to show up. If I believed that LEO could prevent all crime like this I would not carry a gun. Since I don't believe that I do carry 24/7 365 as does my niece who seems to think LEO will be half an hour away when she needs them and four days late

n this case it may could of been a hate crime? That is a pretty severe beating there should be some real charges filed.

They got charged with third degree assault the lowest possible felony assault there is. I can not post what I think about that

 

[Big Del]

You can bet some one called 911 as soon as they saw conflict. It is pretty obvious LEO's couldn't get there in time. The fact that they were hanging out in the parking lot tells me they weren't scared enough of the consequence. That is the kind of stories some people need to hear that these are real cases and people get hurt. That is why I get upset when people say it's not there job to defend other people there out for number 1.

 

[brownie0486]

There are those who will take a stand and help others at risk to themselves in situations like this, and those who won't lift a finger to help anyone risking their own necks.

It's part of the problem this society has developed over two generations. One problem is criminals hardly ever pay the ultimate price for their actions so they are more brazen to act criminally [ the courts don't do squat anymore where sentencing is concerned and the criminals know it ], the other is we have bred so many PC people into the world that don't have the decency to step up to the plate and help those in need thinking- [ it's not my problem and let the cops deal with this ].

No one can tell me that some people saw that father getting his head caved in with the boots. I'll explain it this way, without bravado or any internet commando intentions in the least---------

I see two guys, let alone 6 in any act that is life threatening to another person, I'm going to step up to the plate and interject myself in that scenario. It's the way I was raised, it's the way I've lived, and it's the way it should be IMO.

Oh ya, I'll also be fully armed [ gun, reload, long blade concealed on my waist ], as always and to hell with signs stating something I deem necessary in this world banning me from potentially defending myself in such a scenario as this.

I get into it where I'm not supposed to be armed, I'll suffer those consequences later, but right then, I'm not going to fear interjecting myself into that scenario to prevent some dirt bags from killing another. I've worked the streets helping people as a PI for 28 years until four years ago, and I was a duly sworn LEO for 9 years as well working the streets. My career has been helping others since 1977. It's what I would hope someone else would do if that were me on the ground, and right or wrong, I'll not let a "gang" of criminals beat another.

Yup, I've been injured in these types of interjections in the past [ not like this particular scenario, but enough of them to know I'll act on another's behalf in a heartbeat if I feel it's necessary to prevent serious injury or death to another. I don't turn the other cheek, I tend to get right into it when it seems the right thing to do and to hell with the consequences of the outcome to those turds.

Remember, disparity of force people. You have a right to defend yourself or another person from great bodily harm or death. It may not be the wise choice, it may not be what the PC world would want, but I can live with myself that I've not walked away from situations that endangered the innocent people who haven't the ability to do it themselves like this dad. It's just the way it is, right or wrong politically, I don't think any jury of my peers would find me guilty of interjecting on the dads behalf, even if a few of them left in body bags as they should have in this situation.

The world disgusts me with all the PC BS that people have been fed so long in this country to the point of making people morally impotent. I fought for this country a long time ago. I did that voluntarily out of an ideal that good men don't sit idly by and watch the world around them go in the crapper. The ideals this country were founded on are the same ideals I live by, unfortunately, there are less of my type now than in past generations. Too many people are of the mindset to let someone else deal with the bad things that happen in life, it's not their problem. Unfortunately they are wrong, it's everyones problem, and this scenario playing out proves how impotent most have become to potential violence.

More importantly, it makes great points of the idea I should be able to defend myself at all times anywhere, at anytime, because the cops can't be there for me, and by the time they get there, it could be too little, too late for the victim.

Not on my watch, ever----------

edited to add: I think Springmom has valid points about the childs immediate safety the priority. I also think for most people, 911 is the answer along with extrication from the area if possible without confrontation at the scene. It is situationally dependent based on your own set of circumstances like age, general physical health, training, experience on the streets, etc. Each has to choose what they feel they can do to help, and do everything possible to help another person like the dad. How I'd handle it is based on my experiences and doesn't necessarily mean it is the right thought process for others.

Brownie

 

[LightningJoe]

I doubt my adrenal glands would give me any choice in this scenario. I suspect I'd just freak out. If nothing else, I promise they'd never forget me.


PS I wonder if I'd remember I had a gun on me?

 

[rrruuunnn]

i read in a pepper spray handbook when using a pepper spray against multiple attackers spray a cone or fogger type pepper spray in a semicircle or full circle to create a barrier taking wind direction into account. my pepper spray gives 15 seconds of fog. i have a baton pepper spray with the safety dismantled and clipped to my pocket so i'd would have at least successfully sprayed one of them.

i have my platic knuckle on my key chain. no one knows what that is on my keychain.

 

[VARifleman]

The poll poses a rare situation for me as there really isn't anyplace other than courts, K-12 schools, and airports in VA that I can't carry, and I don't go to any of those 3.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a
governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer
under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security
officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the
security officer's employment, the security officer violates a
provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or
outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for
use by the public that is located in a county with a population of
more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface
area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is
open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has
security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not
include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry
a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e)
is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under
Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony
of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1214,
§ 2
(h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b)
and (c) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the
offense, was:
(1) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section
411.201, Government Code; or
(2) a bailiff designated by the active judicial
officer and engaged in escorting the officer.

Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1222,
§ 5
(h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections
(b)(1), (2), and (4)-(6), and (c) that at the time of the commission
of the offense, the actor was:
(1) a judge or justice of a federal court;
(2) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section
411.201, Government Code; or
(3) a district attorney, assistant district attorney,
criminal district attorney, assistant criminal district attorney,
county attorney, or assistant county attorney.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.

So, unless notified under section 30.06, concealed carry of a firearm in an amusement park by CHL holders is legal in Texas.

What would I have done in this situation? I would have looked for the nearest security guards and pointed the offenders out, while calling 911. And I'd be biting my tongue not to say something worthy of starting a fight to the offenders.