Illegal concealed carry in Illinois

[vito]

I live in one of the two remaining states in the country where there is no provision for legal concealed carry, unless you are a Chicago Alderman or someone with serious political connections. I'm not saying I carry, but if I did, and used my little S&W640 for self defense, what type of problem am I really getting into? I wonder what the likelihood of actually ending up with jail time is here in the land of Lincoln for an otherwise law abiding citizen?

 

[Sistema1927]

Hard to say. Here in New Mexico (prior to our CCW law), we had several cases where citizens dispatched criminals using concealed weapons, and to my knowledge none of them were charged with carrying since the shoots were "righteous".

Not so sure that Illinois would be quite so "enlightened". This is a choice you are going to have to make for yourself. Some would say "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six", but that sounds pretty hollow when you are locked up in the pokey for defending your life.

 

[illini52]

Very likely. Apparently you haven't lived in Illinois very long or are unfamiliar with the ridiculousness that occurs here. I'm sure others will chime in with the legalities.

 

[Don Gwinn]

It will vary greatly depending upon what part of Illinois you're in if and when such a thing happens. The reaction in Effingham will likely be different from the reaction in Cicero, for example. Chicago is right out.

If you do such a thing, you are violating the law of the land and hoping for someone's sense of decency (or crass political pandering) to win out. I will tell you frankly that I do not take that chance. I've been called a coward here more than once because of it, but I don't see it that way. The way I see it, I encounter a lot more police officers in my daily life than violent criminals, and I would only have to slip up once. Also, when I made my decision, I was careful to factor in the possibility that I would be caught with the gun without ever having been forced to use it. People always say "Concealed means concealed!" That's fine, but I drive an ambulance on a volunteer EMS squad.

Say your piece is perfectly concealed and no one would ever guess it's there--and then your tie rod breaks and you drive right into a tree. You wake up on a backboard being strapped down to a gurney. Where's your gun? Who has it? If it's still concealed on your person, how long until someone finds it? Remember, in this hypothetical, you don't have the weight of public acclaim for the hero who stopped a bad guy--you're just a guy who got unlucky and got caught carrying a gun.


I do fanny pack, but I don't really recommend it as a serious method of self-defense. I do it more or less so I can tweak politicians by reminding them that I carry a gun around in public without shooting anyone. I was drilling the draw-and-load-and-charge sequence at the range on Saturday and it only reminded me how impractical it would be to try it unless you were essentially ambushing someone who was attacking someone else.


Finally, remember that whatever you choose to do, THR does not condone illegal activities. Questions about laws and penalties are no problem. If the subject turns to the best ways to break the law, even a law as inane and harmful as this one, you'll have to conduct that conversation on your own time.

Good luck.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm from Chicago. If you're getting robbed, there's a non-zero chance that it's a Chicago alderman or a Chicago cop. Or maybe somebody from the public works department, like the guy who got stopped carrying an unregistered revolver, with the serial number filed off. He was a buddy of Duce Daley, so he not only got released, but got the gun back as well.

 

[DonP]

Don G. is right

Sad but true.

It's very likely that if you wind up getting caught, via an accident, a citizen spotting your carry piece, an angry "ex" turning you in, etc. that you will be "made an example of" by Lisa Madigan and/or the local police as well.

Look what happened to Hale DeMar (Wilmette?) when he shot a burglar in his own home when the guy broke in for the second time, and his children were in the home. They still persecuted and prosecuted the guy. I don't know that he ever got his gun back?

If you are in the Chicago city limits you can pretty much count on a full prosecution and felony conviction, because it's much easier to catch and prosecute an honest citizen than to catch a gang banger in Englewood.

In the eyes of Illinois law, you are every bit as much of a criminal, as the gang bangers in the Englewood community.

Your case will then be used by the Chicago Tribune, Blago and Daley, in editorials and press conferences, as another example of the "free flow of guns in Illinois" and be useful as an argument for the urgent need for more regulations and restrictions, including State Licensing of all gun owners.

That being said, it is a personal choice between the very real possibilities of losing everything you have in this world in a court or leaving this world.

Is it done by law abiding folk in Illinois? I'm sure it is, here and there. But every time it is they are taking a major risk for themselves and their families.

 

[Knucklehead2]

Having spent 35 years in NJ I understand your feelings.
Like me, you may someday move and your rights will be restored.
The thought of losing those rights should help your decision.
Indiana is a wonderful place to live.

 

[halfgone]

NPE

What you're talking about is an NPE, or Non Permissive Environment. Yeah, that's not going to get you far in this forum, but I know plenty of others where you'll do fine.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=6394

You'll have to register, but this is a good thread discussing this, although for the most part, the NPE these guys are talking about is central america, they'll still give you some good ideas.

HG

P.S. I lived in IL almost my whole life. Move.

 

[Trebor]

I do fanny pack, but I don't really recommend it as a serious method of self-defense. I do it more or less so I can tweak politicians by reminding them that I carry a gun around in public without shooting anyone. I was drilling the draw-and-load-and-charge sequence at the range on Saturday and it only reminded me how impractical it would be to try it unless you were essentially ambushing someone who was attacking someone else.

What's the latest on the legality of this method? I know there was a court case where someone was charged and it was alleged that this method did NOT actually meet the "Closed container" provisions of the transport law. I'm not in Illinois and I never heard the outcome of that case.

 

[isp2605]

"What's the latest on the legality of this method? (fanny pack carry)"

It is still not resolved. About 5 or 6 yrs ago when fanny pack carry in IL became a public issue my agency attempted to get a definitive ruling on the legality. We were trying to get a statewide ruling so the people of IL would know what is legal and what isn't. We contacted the IL AG's office who refused to take a position and said he would leave the decision to each state's attorney. There are 102 counties in IL and each has their own elected state's attorney, independent of each other and of the state. So we contacted every one of the 102 state's attorneys for their opinions. We didn't quite get 102 different opinions but close. Some said they fanny pack carry was illegal and they would prosecute. Some said fanny pack carry was legal and persons couldn't be prosecuted. However, the overwhelming majority gave the pat answer "bring each case to us and we'll decide on an individual basis." Very few wanted to go on record either way.
Since that time there is a new IL AG and quite a few of the state's attorneys have changed. I know of no agency who has updated the survey. However, in my dealings with numerous state's attorneys across the state I would surmise the response today would be nearly identical to the response we got 5 or 6 yrs ago. Whether a fanny pack carrier would be charged will depend which county it occurred. In one county you might be OK. The adjoining county may consider it a felony. It's not a good deal and one certainly takes a major risk carrying in a fanny pack in areas where one is not familar with the legal system and the state's attorneys feelings. Until there's a clarification in either the law or a more defined law is passed, I don't see all the state's attorneys or the IL AG coming out in 100% agreement statewide. Not much comfort I know.

BTW, for DonP, AG Lisa Madigan would not be the office to prosecute any of the cases. Prosecution would be handled by the state's attorney from which ever county the offense occurred. State's attorneys do not work for the IL AG nor do they report to that office. Every one of IL's state's attorneys are independent of the IL AG and are each elected by their county.

In response to Vito's question - it will depend on the county and state's attorney, and the circumstances of the case, whether you would be charged. However, be aware that it could be a felony and at the very least a misdemeanor depending on the circumstances if caught carrying. A felony could and probably would result in jail time and you would no longer be legally permitted to possess a firearm. A misdemeanor could get your FOID card revoked which, in effect, would have the same result as a felony conviction as far as possessing a firearm.

 

[HankB]

When I lived in Chicago, I spoke to a couple of Chicago PD members about this, including an uncle.

They told me every week the city had one or more "unexplained" shootings where a person was found shot dead at close range, but not robbed.

More often than not, the deceased had a lengthy criminal record for assault, robbery, rape, etc.

Yes, some were assassinations by rival gang members, but a significant percentage were probably the result of a bad guy trying to rob a person who was carrying illegally - a single woman, a shopkeeper, a small businessman, just a regular member of the public whose business took them into a bad or transitional area.

And since the bad guy carefully chose a time and place where there were no police around to nab him for trying to rape or rob someone, well, that just meant there were no police around to nab the intended victim for shooting the bad guy. Unless the shooter became a Charles Bronson wannabe and did the same thing over and over (which AFAIK just didn't happen) the odds of their being caught and prosecuted were low . . . especially since, at that time, finding the person who shot a known bad guy wasn't a particularly high priority for CPD.

Note that if caught after such a shooting, the law would probably treat a young & attractive 5'6" 110 lb female rape target rather differently than it would treat any guy. In Chicago today, expect to be charged with everything from terrorism to a hate crime.

 

[Sam Adams]

And since the bad guy carefully chose a time and place where there were no police around to nab him for trying to rape or rob someone, well, that just meant there were no police around to nab the intended victim for shooting the bad guy.

A good reason to use a revolver, where you don't have to deal with anyone finding spent shell casings that would help to prove a case against you...hypothetically speaking, of course.

I lived in NJ until 5 1/2 years ago - I never carried illegally, for fear of getting caught while doing something else (auto accident, etc.). I diligently tried to avoid areas where it was dangerous (as I do now, in Texas, where I can and do carry legally), but it was just a roll of the dice (as is life in general). I did have a bunch of magazines in excess of 15 round capacity, but those were at home and I didn't think that there was much risk of getting caught (and having the charges stick). Not so with a loaded carry weapon.

The best thing that someone can do in this situation is to move, if he/she is able to do so.

 

[Soybomb]

I think Don brings up an excellent point. In these threads theres always alot of people who say "concealed means concealed" but they forget theres plenty of other ways for others to find out about your gun other than you pulling it. Sometimes I have to get on the floor at work and things will fall from my pockets at the weirdest times. Shirts ride up. I've been an ambulance after a car wreck more than I've been robbed....its a shame you have to play a numbers game with your life if you don't want to be a criminal but thats Illinois for now.

 

[Don Gwinn]

ISP2605 and I have been round and round on this before, and I'm sure he's going to heave a sigh at having to read my stuff again, but here's the quick and dirty version:

Fanny packing is unsettled in the sense that there's been no definitive legal ruling on using a fanny pack specifically. The reason I choose to do it is that, as I see it, all the evidence we do have points to its legality. To wit:

1. Legal precedent. In Bruner v. Illinois, a woman was found to be legally carrying her unloaded pistol--and she had only dropped it into her purse. That wouldn't satisfy the wildlife code, but it's hard to see how it's any different than a fanny pack under the UUW statute. I am aware of no precedent to the contrary.
2. The law itself--it's pretty clear to anyone but a lawyer getting paid to argue the other side. The UUW statute clearly states that you can transport your gun unloaded in a closed container with a FOID. The Wildlife Code adds only that the container must be made specifically to hold a gun. The Illinois State Police state the same thing in their pamphlet, "Transport Your Gun Legally in Illinois."
3. Recent legal tests--although there's no recent precedent, there have been several fanny packers charged with UUW and not one conviction. Vana Haggerty refused several plea offers and the charges were dropped an hour before the scheduled beginning of her trial. John Horstman was badly mistreated much farther north. After the charges were dropped, he sued and won a large cash settlement for his pains.

We're getting a bit far afield, though. Choosing to fanny pack is a lot easier decision than choosing to carry a loaded gun concealed in Illinois, and that's saying something, because as ISP2605 demonstrates, an awful lot of people are still unconvinced that fanny packing won't land them in prison.
Choosing to carry a loaded pistol in Illinois is a much bigger deal. There's not going to be any discussion about whether it's legal or not, only whether you get charged and at what level.

 

[Soybomb]

I could be mistaken but I don't think ISP is commenting on its legality as much as that its a crapshoot if you're going to be arrested and charged for uuw which is going to be a hassle even if it was later determined you were within the law.

 

[isp2605]

You are correct Soybomb. I'm just relaying info that as an agency we tried to get a definitive answer and the answers we got were clear across the board.
Now that I'm retired I'm free to give my own opinion where someone wouldn't construe it to be official policy of my agency. I believe fanny pack carry is legal in IL - PROVIDED - the weapon is unloaded and the fanny pack is specifically designed to be used to carry a firearm so that portion of the Wildlife Code is covered. However, that still would not give a person the authority to carry in certain places and within certain distances of some locations. That is where one would have to be very careful so they don't get tricked up in one of those places.
If you do elect to fanny pack carry, and you happen to get caught in an IL county where the state's attorney is of the opinion that it's illegal and he decides to prosecute, just be prepared for a long hard row ahead of you. Even if you'd happen to draw a sympathetic jury it's not going to be a cheap fight. And since the IL AG refuses to take a position, or at least the former IL AG, then one should not expect any judges to be hearing defense motions quoting an AG opinion. The only thing the defense would be is the interpretation of the statutes, which given the various opinions of the state's attorneys thru out the state shows they don't all agree on what the statute covers. One also has to be very careful placing all their faith and freedom in cases that never made it to trial. Those have no bearing in court. Same with cases where someone was found not guilty. While a defense attorney might introduce a previous case in an argument, every case is different and can't be considered a blanket get out of jail free card.
My warning is if deciding to fanny pack carry in IL just be aware of the wide diversity of opinions that vary from county to county and that there is no definitive legal ruling at this time. It could land a person in jail, even if overnight awaiting bail, and subject them to some steep legal fees. It's a decision each person needs to make for themselves but it needs to be an informed decision.

 

[lamazza]

When I lived in that city I carried everywhere, it saved me from getting mugged twice. Daley has some real big ones to claim its not needed and the police will protect you.

 

[NukemJim]

isp2605,
First thank you for your service as a LEO. It is not something I would like to do.
2nd I realize that ISP does not make the law.

But how the heck is a citizen who is trying to be law abiding find out what is or is not legal ?

It is difficult to obey the law when you cannot find out what it means.

Are there other areas of the law in Illinois that are this unclear or is this type of FUBAR with laws only common in firearms law?

NukemJim

 

[isp2605]

"But how the heck is a citizen who is trying to be law abiding find out what is or is not legal ? It is difficult to obey the law when you cannot find out what it means."

That's why we tried to get an agreed upon opinion from either the IL AG or the state's attorneys. Even tho I'm not speaking for the ISP I can say that this is the general feeling = nearly every person wants to do right and obey the law. It is the very small % that don't care, will do whatever they please and no law will make any difference in their decisions. But most people are good, honest, hard working people who just want to obey the law, whatever the law is. No law has ever been written, at least that I've seen, where afterwards someone can't think up an exception or something that wasn't considered when the law was enacted. It makes it tough on the honest citizen and it's tough on the LEO when he has an state's attorney in one county who says to arrest and in another county who says let them go and yet another county who says "D'uh got me. I'll decide later." These people are politicians and being politicians they don't want to alienate any portion of the population. So instead they stradle fences and try to be everything to everyone. Wish I had an easy answer. I guess we elected them, we can hold their feet to the fire for answers.


"Are there other areas of the law in Illinois that are this unclear or is this type of FUBAR with laws only common in firearms law? "

There are some others.
Personally, I don't think its unclear. Even tho my opinion doesn't matter at all, I believe there is a loophole which permits fanny pack carry when done in compliance with existing laws. However, I do believe when the Unlawful Use of Weapon laws were passed the legislature didn't envision something like the fanny pack loophole. Since the legislature has been so consistent in not passing CCW for IL I believe their intent with the current UUW was not to permit something like the fanny pack carry. They just didn't conceive of the loophole when they wrote the law. Got to remember that very very few of our legislators have been die hard gun people. But now that the loophole has been brought to their attention, to fix the loophole will mean the legislators will have to come out even more publicly on such a hot button issue as CCW. That is an issue most legislators would soon not discuss if they can avoid it.
It's just good ole IL politics as usual. Disgusting ain't it!

 

[vito]

I really appreciate all of the good comments. If it wasn't for my job I'd try to leave Illinois for a friendlier environment, such as Texas where I lived for many years. I just recently received both my New Hampshire and Pennsylvania non-resident licenses to carry concealed, and while it doesn't do anything for me in Illinois, they do cover me in Indiana and North Carolina where I travel to occasionally. I served in the U.S. Army for 24 years, including a tour in Vietnam, and I was always proud to serve to protect our freedom and way of life, and I find it ironic that now that I am retired from the military, I could be considered a dangerous criminal merely for wanting to be able to defend myself, my wife, children or grandchildren. I don't believe that fanny pack carry is very useful, so it comes down to whether or not I am willing to risk jail time in return for a small measure of safety. I do know one thing, however, I will not be a helpless lamb who counts on the government to protect me and mine.

 

[ilbob]

I believe their intent with the current UUW was not to permit something like the fanny pack carry. They just didn't conceive of the loophole when they wrote the law.

This is just plain not so. On several fronts.

The wording that allows fanny packing was something added to the UUW statute well after the statute was written. It was a common sense thing because as written, you could not even take a gun to a range or to a gunsmith. Very clearly that was never the intent of the UUW law.

The NRA/ISRA got the exceptions for unloaded/encased/FOID card holder added to the law. During the debate on the law on the floor, a legislator asked specifically if this would mean someone could carry an unloaded gun around as long as it was in a case. The answer was "yes". (I am paraphrasing this so don't hold me to the literal wording of the exchange in the debate on the floor).

Very clearly, the legislature knew exactly what it was voting for and that it would mean that what we now call fanny packing would indeed be legal.

BTW, the fact that it is clearly and unequivocally legal does not mean you will not get arrested for it. Cops are human beings after all, and few are legal scholars. There is a good chance they will act on instinct and just lock you up. There is unlikely to be any dialog about what the law is. Once the cuffs are on you are going to jail.

 

[isp2605]

Sorry ILBOB but your info is absolutely not correct.
Nothing at all was changed in 24-1 to permit fanny pack carry and there's absolutely no mention of fanny pack carry in 24-1. In fact, 24-1 does not mandate the gun being encased. That is mandated by the wildlife code. The only thing that has changed has been people finally figured out how to apply the statute to fanny pack carry. Re-read 24-1. That statute has been the same for many many years, at least since the 70s when I began enforcing those statutes, and was not changed. This has been the statute long before fanny pack carry became an issue.
Your theory indicates the legislature passed the bill as a backdoor, quiet way to allow CCW is more than laughable. You indicate the legislature intentionally and with full knowledge would pass a pseudo-CCW bill in IL. Anyone who has dealt with IL legislature would know that hasn't been, and isn't, the case.
Sorry, but this is an area I've been very involved in, directly with legislature and others, for many many years. We deal directly with the legislature on a daily basis on issues such as this.

 

[ilbob]

Sorry ILBOB but your info is absolutely not correct.
Nothing at all was changed in 24-1 to permit fanny pack carry and there's absolutely no mention of fanny pack carry in 24-1. In fact, 24-1 does not mandate the gun being encased.

of course it does not say anything about fanny packs. It just says cased.

24-1.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
[...]
(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed
on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:
(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;
or

(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,
firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;

 

[isp2605]

That section has been in there for many years. Nothing new. I was teaching that in our academy long before anyone, particularly a male, would think of carrying a fanny pack in public.
If you ever talk to one of the legislators from years ago when these were passed you will find their intent was so you could transport a firearm to hunting, a shop, etc. They did not envision the "loophole" of people using fanny packs for everyday carry. When this statute was enacted people didn't carry fanny packs.
Don't think Mike Madigan and those legislators who have been around for ever intentionally put in the statute a "loophole" just so people could carry an unloaded gun in a fanny pack. Anyone with just a passing familarity with IL legislature would know that sure didn't happen and just doesn't make sense.

 

[goblues]

I heard a story not too long ago about a Missouri state trooper carrying off duty in IL due to HR 218 its legal to carry in 50 states for him. Anyways he stopped to assist a motorist in a crash, and when the Illinois State police got therer they arrested him still for carrying a gun, DESPITE federal law passed where LEO officers can legally carry.

Doesn't suprise me. Illinois thinks they are even bigger than the federal gov. Im sure they didnt press charges on him because of what federal law states, but still the embarassment of it is enough.

When they pass the law to carry in all 50 states if they do, I still prob wont carry in IL, just because chances are they will still haul your ass in anyways.

Everyone knows Chicago controls the entire state of IL. If Chicago didnt control the state we wouldnt see all the stupid laws IL has.