I'm a bad shot :(
- Thread starter poetdante
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You're gripping too hard with your strong hand. Your finger tips shouldn't really be griping at all..it causes the gun to point left
Well now I'm confused...
I thought the strong hand gripped as high as you can, with the index finger above the trigger guard.
The supporting, left, hand has the meat of the palm by the wrist in the space that isn't covered by the right hand's grip, and the right hand finger tips are pressing into the left hand.The left hand fingers are such that when they are extended go at a 45 degree angle. Both thumbs go down range. Basically you want to grip so that if your right palm leaves the backstrap you can still pull the trigger with the support of the left hand pressing against the right.
I thought the strong hand gripped as high as you can, with the index finger above the trigger guard.
The supporting, left, hand has the meat of the palm by the wrist in the space that isn't covered by the right hand's grip, and the right hand finger tips are pressing into the left hand.The left hand fingers are such that when they are extended go at a 45 degree angle. Both thumbs go down range. Basically you want to grip so that if your right palm leaves the backstrap you can still pull the trigger with the support of the left hand pressing against the right.
Unless he is a big name shooter, $100/student should get you at least half a day.
I took a great class a while back for $130/day and Chris Costa only charges $235/day. I don't know how far Paducha is from you, but I can highly recommend OpSpec Training...tell Jerry, Hi from me
http://opspectraining.com/
I'm not sure why, I haven't written anything that says it shouldn't be high, I just posted that you are over gripping...gripping too tightly with your finger tips
Nope, it is the other way around. The left hand presses against the right hand's finger tips...the right hands finger tips just sit there on the grip panel
Yup, that is correct. I demo this all the time by opening my right hand, moving that thumb to the right side and firing a couple of shots
Oh wow looks great. Paducha isnt more than a few hours from me. Seems like I will be having a steady progression south haha. First the class near Shelbyvill with the link i posted. Then Paducha. And finally James Yaeger because when I vist my gf's parents they are only an a couple hours from his complex
Radagast
Member
conw:
Yep, squeeze trigger, work slide, balance coin, aim squeeze trigger, work slide...
Then start transitioning between targets with the coin balanced. I learned very quickly how jerky my transitions were, but smoothed them out after a while of doing this.
It's a good way of learning trigger control and the balance of the gun, does not cost anything and can be done for 10-15 minutes a night for months on end if needed.
Yep, squeeze trigger, work slide, balance coin, aim squeeze trigger, work slide...
Then start transitioning between targets with the coin balanced. I learned very quickly how jerky my transitions were, but smoothed them out after a while of doing this.
It's a good way of learning trigger control and the balance of the gun, does not cost anything and can be done for 10-15 minutes a night for months on end if needed.
Radagast
Member
You can shave two pounds off the double action pull by changing the hammer spring for one from the Beretta Cougar:
http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=104401
http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=104401
9mmepiphany
I will pay attention to my finger tips then! So, when I grip the fingers' tips need to be not so tight on the grip? Rather, the support hand needs to be pressing the strong hand's fingers into the grip? So if the left hand was not there then there would be little pressure on the finger tips against the grip? Right? Testing it out, it does feel a little smoother with dry fire
I will pay attention to my finger tips then! So, when I grip the fingers' tips need to be not so tight on the grip? Rather, the support hand needs to be pressing the strong hand's fingers into the grip? So if the left hand was not there then there would be little pressure on the finger tips against the grip? Right? Testing it out, it does feel a little smoother with dry fire
poetdante - first, kudos to you for asking about how to improve. You've been given a lot of good info, and kudos to chris in va (in KY ) for a generous offer for some 1on1.
That said, a compact gun in a snappy caliber is gonna be tough for the new shooter to shoot well, so be patient with yourself. If your budget allows it, maybe consider a Browning Buckmark or Ruger MkIII .22LR. A .22LR is an excellent training tool, and a lot of really good handgunners still shoot their .22LR quite a bit.
At the end of the day, shooting accurately is really pretty simple - align the sights and pull the trigger without disturbing the sights, though actually doing that well isn't quite as simple. One reason why it doesn't seem simple is because we spend a lot of time trying to identify all the things we need to do to accomplish that good shot. Truth is, there are only the 2 things I just mentioned. We do well, then, by looking within ourselves with brutal honesty to identify and dump all the things we do that aren't those 2 things. The list is generally long, but very subtle. IOW, focus on, and only on, the 2 fundamentals 1 shot at a time. Not the target, not your last shot, or your next shot, not some "need" to shoot a good group, not the recoil, the blast, or the guy next to you, etc.
Someone called?
Coin Drill, Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nES4A0rd1ak
Coin Drill, Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI
) for a generous offer for some 1on1.That said, a compact gun in a snappy caliber is gonna be tough for the new shooter to shoot well, so be patient with yourself. If your budget allows it, maybe consider a Browning Buckmark or Ruger MkIII .22LR. A .22LR is an excellent training tool, and a lot of really good handgunners still shoot their .22LR quite a bit.
At the end of the day, shooting accurately is really pretty simple - align the sights and pull the trigger without disturbing the sights, though actually doing that well isn't quite as simple
. One reason why it doesn't seem simple is because we spend a lot of time trying to identify all the things we need to do to accomplish that good shot. Truth is, there are only the 2 things I just mentioned. We do well, then, by looking within ourselves with brutal honesty to identify and dump all the things we do that aren't those 2 things. The list is generally long, but very subtle. IOW, focus on, and only on, the 2 fundamentals 1 shot at a time. Not the target, not your last shot, or your next shot, not some "need" to shoot a good group, not the recoil, the blast, or the guy next to you, etc.788Ham said:
Someone called?
Coin Drill, Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nES4A0rd1ak
Coin Drill, Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI
RetiredUSNChief
Member
For the "could be the gun" issue:
Eliminate this by doing some bench rest shooting. Sit down at a bench and support your arms on something steady so that you can hold the gun as steady as possible. Concentrate on maintaining your sight picture and slowly squeeze off several shots. If they're going where you're aiming (or very close), then it's not the gun.
Or have someone else more experienced shoot your gun and see how they do.
As for you being a "bad shot"...for someone who has only been shooting a month, you ain't doing badly at all. Some people can't hit the side of a barn when standing inside the barn with the doors shut.
Some one-on-one instruction would do you a world of good, whether it's professionally obtained by a paid instructor or from some obviously experienced shooters at the range. It's a starting point.
For new shooters, there's little more discouraging than not being able to hit the target, or not doing very well, after putting hundreds of roundsdownrange. So take the time to reward yourself by occasionally setting up conditions wherein you DO make some reasonably good shot placements. Everybody wants to be able to shoot well standing up, unsupported...but don't knock sitting down at a bench and resting your arms occasionally. It's not easy to shoot well standing up, especially for beginners. And move your target closer, too.
And don't think moving your target closer is, somehow, "cheating". It's not. If you're not able to put all the rounds in the target at whatever distance you're currently shooting, then all those missed shots constitute occasions which provide you with no physical evidence of how you're shooting because there are not holes in the target to illustrate. Where those holes are say a lot about what you need to correct in your habits.
In summary, in the absence of face-to-face instruction I'd recommend moving your target closer and doing some bench shooting to prove to yourself that you CAN hit your target close to where you are aiming and prove to yourself that it's NOT the pistol.
Then move to standing up.
Oh...and buy lots of ammunition. Lots and lots and lots of ammunition. Because nobody gets good without shooting a lot.
(You don't have to buy it all at once, though...but even when you're not shooting, pick up a box or two occasionally at the store and add it to your stash. It adds up and eases the sticker shock by spreading it out over time.)
Eliminate this by doing some bench rest shooting. Sit down at a bench and support your arms on something steady so that you can hold the gun as steady as possible. Concentrate on maintaining your sight picture and slowly squeeze off several shots. If they're going where you're aiming (or very close), then it's not the gun.
Or have someone else more experienced shoot your gun and see how they do.
As for you being a "bad shot"...for someone who has only been shooting a month, you ain't doing badly at all. Some people can't hit the side of a barn when standing inside the barn with the doors shut.
Some one-on-one instruction would do you a world of good, whether it's professionally obtained by a paid instructor or from some obviously experienced shooters at the range. It's a starting point.
For new shooters, there's little more discouraging than not being able to hit the target, or not doing very well, after putting hundreds of roundsdownrange. So take the time to reward yourself by occasionally setting up conditions wherein you DO make some reasonably good shot placements. Everybody wants to be able to shoot well standing up, unsupported...but don't knock sitting down at a bench and resting your arms occasionally. It's not easy to shoot well standing up, especially for beginners. And move your target closer, too.
And don't think moving your target closer is, somehow, "cheating". It's not. If you're not able to put all the rounds in the target at whatever distance you're currently shooting, then all those missed shots constitute occasions which provide you with no physical evidence of how you're shooting because there are not holes in the target to illustrate. Where those holes are say a lot about what you need to correct in your habits.
In summary, in the absence of face-to-face instruction I'd recommend moving your target closer and doing some bench shooting to prove to yourself that you CAN hit your target close to where you are aiming and prove to yourself that it's NOT the pistol.
Then move to standing up.
Oh...and buy lots of ammunition. Lots and lots and lots of ammunition. Because nobody gets good without shooting a lot.
(You don't have to buy it all at once, though...but even when you're not shooting, pick up a box or two occasionally at the store and add it to your stash. It adds up and eases the sticker shock by spreading it out over time.)
MrBorland
I just got some .22lr in but I don't think I can justify getting a pistol in that caliber just because it's hard to get (hell, Cabelas was charging $16/50rds of some match 22lr and that's the only kind they stocked. So I try and buy online but most deals are gone before I can get to them). That being said, I rented a revolver and took some shots, it wasn't bad from a snub nose
Oh and I see you have the penny on the barrel, does the penny go on the barrel or the front sight? My sight is as a slight forward angle towards the muzzle so it's tricky but if I can keep it on the barrell well that would be easier haha.
RetiredUSNChief
I'm not really discouraged. More like, motivated to become better. I love shooting and hitting a pre-determined target is what drives me. If it were steel, I'd be happy to just hear it ring. But at the same time I'm not happy with simply hitting anywhere on a huge piece of paper lol. Somewhere between punching holes and a tight shotgun pattern is my goal. And I know the people at the range getting these results have decade's worth of experience on me, hell there was a guy next to me with a laser and a red dot and his shots were all over the place like mine!
I actually DID move the target closer, to like 7ft. and my shots were WAY worse. ALL of them were too low.
As for the ammo, I bought 1000 rounds of Fiocchi 170gr but it's a snappy round! Also, doesn't like to initially feed into any pistol I run it through. I switched over to my stock of 500rds of re-manufactured ammo, which is better. I will add, both the Fiocchi and the Freedom Munitons rounds are so CLEAN. The casings look almost new when I shoot them haha. I can see them immediately on the ground when scavenging (note the Fiocchi are the G.F.L headstamps not the FC). I intend to keep a rotating stock of 500 rounds min so next month I will add another 500 rounds of either FreedomMunitons or Georgia-Arms (26-30 cents per round re-manufactured ammo) unless someone else can recommend cheap .40 lol
I just got some .22lr in but I don't think I can justify getting a pistol in that caliber just because it's hard to get (hell, Cabelas was charging $16/50rds of some match 22lr and that's the only kind they stocked. So I try and buy online but most deals are gone before I can get to them). That being said, I rented a revolver and took some shots, it wasn't bad from a snub nose
Oh and I see you have the penny on the barrel, does the penny go on the barrel or the front sight? My sight is as a slight forward angle towards the muzzle so it's tricky but if I can keep it on the barrell well that would be easier haha.
RetiredUSNChief
I'm not really discouraged. More like, motivated to become better. I love shooting and hitting a pre-determined target is what drives me. If it were steel, I'd be happy to just hear it ring. But at the same time I'm not happy with simply hitting anywhere on a huge piece of paper lol. Somewhere between punching holes and a tight shotgun pattern is my goal. And I know the people at the range getting these results have decade's worth of experience on me, hell there was a guy next to me with a laser and a red dot and his shots were all over the place like mine!
I actually DID move the target closer, to like 7ft. and my shots were WAY worse. ALL of them were too low.
As for the ammo, I bought 1000 rounds of Fiocchi 170gr but it's a snappy round! Also, doesn't like to initially feed into any pistol I run it through. I switched over to my stock of 500rds of re-manufactured ammo, which is better. I will add, both the Fiocchi and the Freedom Munitons rounds are so CLEAN. The casings look almost new when I shoot them haha. I can see them immediately on the ground when scavenging (note the Fiocchi are the G.F.L headstamps not the FC). I intend to keep a rotating stock of 500 rounds min so next month I will add another 500 rounds of either FreedomMunitons or Georgia-Arms (26-30 cents per round re-manufactured ammo) unless someone else can recommend cheap .40 lol
Good advice above. I will echo that a compact .40 is a tough gun to learn on. in my experience you'd be much better off with a 9mm as you learn to shoot.
Much of learning to shoot is managing the sound in your ears and the movement of your hands. I learned to deal with these factors by relaxing (mentally and physically) into each shot. You need to expect the recoil and mentally adjust to the sound of your gun and those around you.
As a new shooter you need to worry less about accuracy and more about the feelings and sensations that accompany each shot. Try closing your eyes intermittently during a range session and really experience what the sound and feel of each shot are like. If you do this you'll find that many bad habits are created by negative anticipation, and not the actual shooting of the gun.
And finally, accuracy comes with practice, practice and more practice. Give yourself time to learn how to shoot well. Lower your expectations for awhile and have fun!
Much of learning to shoot is managing the sound in your ears and the movement of your hands. I learned to deal with these factors by relaxing (mentally and physically) into each shot. You need to expect the recoil and mentally adjust to the sound of your gun and those around you.
As a new shooter you need to worry less about accuracy and more about the feelings and sensations that accompany each shot. Try closing your eyes intermittently during a range session and really experience what the sound and feel of each shot are like. If you do this you'll find that many bad habits are created by negative anticipation, and not the actual shooting of the gun.
And finally, accuracy comes with practice, practice and more practice. Give yourself time to learn how to shoot well. Lower your expectations for awhile and have fun!
More practice will definitely be done. I just was hoping for some "diagnostics" for the stray shots. It used to be I was placing all my shots in center of mass but lately they have gotten more...erratic. It happened when I tried to apply the proper rules listed above. Don't get me wrong, number one priority right now is having fun while shooting, I was just concerned that I was getting progressivly worse is all. The pictures uploaded in my post are in chronological order over a 2 hour period (taking breaks to harvest brass between groups of shots).
The general concensus is that I need to go see a pro, or as Chris in Va offered to go with me and maybe have him analyze my technique.
I would shy away from buying a 9mm, not because it's a 9mm, but because it's another caliber I need to keep an eye out for good deals on. Maybe I will get an HK USP when I can afford it lol.
The general concensus is that I need to go see a pro, or as Chris in Va offered to go with me and maybe have him analyze my technique.
I would shy away from buying a 9mm, not because it's a 9mm, but because it's another caliber I need to keep an eye out for good deals on. Maybe I will get an HK USP when I can afford it lol.
The Bushmaster
Member
Nobody shoots 10 "X"s the first time out. Not even me. By the way. Why spend good money lining a "pro's" pockets when you have all the pros you need right here. Most important thing to remember is this is a fun sport. Shoot to enjoy yourself and don't shoot against anyone. Only against yourself.
Switch to bullseye targets and get away from silhouette targets.
Bench rest 5 shots per target until you have figured out the trigger pull and whether the gun will even shoot to point. Use the target shooting graph on the bullseye targets. Shoot at 10 to 15 yards and extend that as you get better. When you are shooting in the black at 25 yards start shooting off hand at 10 to 15 yards again. Set your grip and don't change it during the pulling of the trigger and start increasing the pressure on the trigger [only] slowly.
Am I an expert? Nope. BUT...I am better then most and not as good as some.
Switch to bullseye targets and get away from silhouette targets.
Bench rest 5 shots per target until you have figured out the trigger pull and whether the gun will even shoot to point. Use the target shooting graph on the bullseye targets. Shoot at 10 to 15 yards and extend that as you get better. When you are shooting in the black at 25 yards start shooting off hand at 10 to 15 yards again. Set your grip and don't change it during the pulling of the trigger and start increasing the pressure on the trigger [only] slowly.
Am I an expert? Nope. BUT...I am better then most and not as good as some.
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I need the pro's keen eye to tell me what I most likely am doing wrong and how to fix it. As my old bio professor said, you don't know what you don't know .That being said, I went here first because this way I get dozens of professionals! If I could upload high resolution video to show exactly how I grip and shoot, I would. I will do my best to see if my cell phone's camera is up to speed.
I only use the bullseye because that's what my range has. They have one that has 5 circles on it but that one was way worse. That's why I put either small 1-2inch circles or larger, 8 inch circles. Will upload some pics of those this week.
As for bench rest, do I just rest my elbow on the table or does the pistol need to go into a grip/base like rifles do? Because the bench is really narrow at my range.
I only use the bullseye because that's what my range has. They have one that has 5 circles on it but that one was way worse. That's why I put either small 1-2inch circles or larger, 8 inch circles. Will upload some pics of those this week.
As for bench rest, do I just rest my elbow on the table or does the pistol need to go into a grip/base like rifles do? Because the bench is really narrow at my range.
The Bushmaster
Member
Just rest the pistol on something that is not able to move and hold the pistol with two hands. All you need to do is be able to steady the pistol.
Come on guys...Keep it simple. This is not advanced science here.
Come on guys...Keep it simple. This is not advanced science here.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Bench rest in a fashion that is comfortable and enables you to hold the pistol rock steady.
I say "comfortable", because if it's uncomfortable you'll always be trying to adjust something, even unconsciously.
When I bench rest with a pistol for the purpose of checking pistol accuracy, I generally sit at a table and, with the pistol in a two-handed grip, prop the meaty part of my hands on something sturdy, like an ammo can, and keep my elbows planted on the table. This way my forearms are as rock-steady as I can make them with things anchored at three points: Hands on the ammo can and two elbows on the table.
You can make some adjustments to this as you see fit, provided it's comfortable. Like resting the bottom of the pistol frame or trigger gauard on something sturdy as well.
Generally, what you find out when you do this is that your pistol is shooting fine...which means the shooter sucks and not the pistol.
But that's good...because you've eliminated one possible cause of your problems. With the bench rest as a reference point, you can now systematically work to figure out what your problems are by shifting things around and seeing how that affects your shooting.
The major factors which affect accuracy are, in my opinion: grip, trigger pull, and stance.
Stance is nothing more than providing a stable shooting platform with your body.
Grip is how you hold your weapon in your hands.
Trigger pull is finger placement on the trigger and learning to maintain your sight picture as you squeeze.
They're all interrelated, of course...but you can see how you can start to break things down from your starting reference point (bench shooting) to see how changes affect your shooting.
I say "comfortable", because if it's uncomfortable you'll always be trying to adjust something, even unconsciously.
When I bench rest with a pistol for the purpose of checking pistol accuracy, I generally sit at a table and, with the pistol in a two-handed grip, prop the meaty part of my hands on something sturdy, like an ammo can, and keep my elbows planted on the table. This way my forearms are as rock-steady as I can make them with things anchored at three points: Hands on the ammo can and two elbows on the table.
You can make some adjustments to this as you see fit, provided it's comfortable. Like resting the bottom of the pistol frame or trigger gauard on something sturdy as well.
Generally, what you find out when you do this is that your pistol is shooting fine...which means the shooter sucks and not the pistol.
But that's good...because you've eliminated one possible cause of your problems. With the bench rest as a reference point, you can now systematically work to figure out what your problems are by shifting things around and seeing how that affects your shooting.
The major factors which affect accuracy are, in my opinion: grip, trigger pull, and stance.
Stance is nothing more than providing a stable shooting platform with your body.
Grip is how you hold your weapon in your hands.
Trigger pull is finger placement on the trigger and learning to maintain your sight picture as you squeeze.
They're all interrelated, of course...but you can see how you can start to break things down from your starting reference point (bench shooting) to see how changes affect your shooting.
HighExpert
Member
Dry fire. Make sights stay aligned all the way through. 3-5 thousand times and you will hit what you aim at.
When you distill down accurate shooting, this is really what it is all about. Stance, breath control and grip fall far below these two in importance. The only time I even think about my breathing is to remember to breath before starting a stage in competition or when checking for zero off a rest.MrBorland said:
That confirms that the issue is slapping/snatching the trigger due to anticipationpoetdante said:
Because he should be able to straighten out his grip and trigger press issues in about 20-50 rounds...then he will be able to use the rest of his ammo/time to practice the correct techniques.The Bushmaster said:
Just look at how many post it took to convey the correct grip pressure/vectors in this thread. In person, I can do that with a quick demo and tweak the needed correction in about 6 shots. Teaching trigger press is a completely interactive process. I teach it in a series of 2 shots between tweaks, while objectively observing the process. Until a client learns what a correct trigger press feels like, they are unable to self-correct
SC Shooter
Member
One thing that help me was to use a laser on my little P22. I really highlighted how shaky my hands were, and aas a result, it force me to concentrat on just that. Then when I was able to get that undercontrol, I was able to see what what in my sights, a compared to where the light waas on the target. It really taught me to focus on the actual shooting.
+1
All this grip advice is good. But a good grip is mainly going to help you shoot faster, not more accurately.
When shooting a compact 40, you may HAVE to grip it pretty darn tight. And furthermore, there's nothing wrong with gripping a gun tight, even a death grip. So long as you can consistently break the trigger without shaking the gun, your grip can not be too tight. The grip that works for you, with that gun, might be different than what works for the top competetion shooter that uses a glock or a 1911.
If the sights aren't moving when you dryfire, have a friend put a snap cap into a random position in each mag. I bet the sights will move a bunch. A small 40SW pistol can be challenging even for an experienced shooter.
Here's another exercise that's even easier. Load just one bullet in each magazine. Knowing that you are not "trying" to get the sights back on target after your shot, you might avoid the flinch that you have likely developed. Also, it will give you a slower pacing. I know that after a relatively short number of shots with a G27, I will start to develop a flinch. Everyone gets "tired" at some point when shooting a high recoil handgun. It just happens, and then the shots start to spray. With a higher recoil gun, this point can be reached quite soon.
This brings up another point. After the first 30-40 shots, if you haven't improved, take a break. Shooting a high recoil gun is a little like smashing drives at the range. If your shots are spraying all over the place by the end of a small bucket, you're not really practicing anymore. You're just wearing down your body and ingraining bad habits.
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While a tight grip isn't always horrible, the problem is what it introduces to the shooting equation with newer shooters who haven't quite go the trigger press down yet.GLOOB said:
A common by-product of a tighter grip is the tightening of the shooting hands fingers as the trigger is pressed...causing low hits on target. Another common occurrence is adding pressure from the strong thumb to the frame, thereby closing the pocket formed in the web of the hand and causing shots to push left
I might argue that this occurs mainly when you're trying to shoot fast followup shots, double taps, and whatnot. It's your body trying to keep the sights on target, to where your hand is counteracting the recoil before the shot breaks. When shooting one shot at a time, you remove this from the equation. You can work on the grip later, after you've mastered the whole shooting without flinching part. You should be able to shoot the bullseye out with any grip. Also, depending on the gun, sometimes a death grip is the way to go. It all depends on how the gun fits your hand. My G21 is my favorite shooter, because of the fit. The sights don't move, no matter how hard I squeeze down on the grip. Trying to fix someone's grip in the blind just might be counterproductive. If he can consistently dryfire without moving the sights, grip wouldn't be my main priority. If he can't dryfire, then yeah. Work on the grip.
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