Greetings! I've read a bit from this forum about the 6.5 Creedmoor. If you wanted to step in power, what would you choose? I was looking at H&H Precision Rifles. They make a .25 MOA guarantee. Would a .300 Win Mag from them make much of a difference? I'd like your thoughts on caliber and manufacture please.
I'm looking for a long range target rifle
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sirgilligan
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Welcome to the forum.
May I ask a little history of your experience shooting firearms? What have you shot to date? If you haven't shot much, do you have a friend that does?
If I personally were going for flat shooting and didn't care about the cost or recoil a .300 Win Mag would be on my short list.
If you are going to try and achieve the .25 MOA guarantee you will need to use the exact ammo that they recommend. You will also want to consider loading your own.
Any info about your history with firearms might help others give better recommendations.
May I ask a little history of your experience shooting firearms? What have you shot to date? If you haven't shot much, do you have a friend that does?
If I personally were going for flat shooting and didn't care about the cost or recoil a .300 Win Mag would be on my short list.
If you are going to try and achieve the .25 MOA guarantee you will need to use the exact ammo that they recommend. You will also want to consider loading your own.
Any info about your history with firearms might help others give better recommendations.
Llama Bob
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The .300 win mag barely has a better long range trajectory than the 6.5 Creedmoor. It's got more punch for hunting obviously, but as a target rifle it wouldn't be a high choice for me. Too much recoil for too uninteresting a trajectory.
Typically if you're stepping up past the 6.5 Creedmoor, you're going to be looking at something with a bigger case in either 6.5 or 7mm. So 6.5-284, .280, .264 Winchester, 7mm Remington Mag, 7mm SAUM, 7mm WSM. Somthing like that.
There are more options farther up the power ladder, but those are pretty standard options. I excluded things like .30-06 and various .30 and larger magnums that really can't outperform the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor, or .243.
What you might choose depends heavily on whether you reload. Some of these calibers have next to zero factory support.
Typically if you're stepping up past the 6.5 Creedmoor, you're going to be looking at something with a bigger case in either 6.5 or 7mm. So 6.5-284, .280, .264 Winchester, 7mm Remington Mag, 7mm SAUM, 7mm WSM. Somthing like that.
There are more options farther up the power ladder, but those are pretty standard options. I excluded things like .30-06 and various .30 and larger magnums that really can't outperform the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor, or .243.
What you might choose depends heavily on whether you reload. Some of these calibers have next to zero factory support.
Marty B
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Rocky,
I just went through this same decision. I was considering rebarreling a savage that I had and a new stock. After some research I decided to just buy a Savage model 12 Long Range Precision in .260 Rem. I believe the .260 has slightly more case capacity than the Creedmoor, but I'm not positive about that. Also in my reading it was said that the .260 had less wind drift and less drop at 1000 yds. than the 300WM with 85% of the energy. I haven't done much research on those numbers, but read that several different places. Trigger on the LRP was GREAT right out of the box at about 12 oz. after some barrel break in it looks to show some great promise.
Hope this helps a little bit,
Marty
I just went through this same decision. I was considering rebarreling a savage that I had and a new stock. After some research I decided to just buy a Savage model 12 Long Range Precision in .260 Rem. I believe the .260 has slightly more case capacity than the Creedmoor, but I'm not positive about that. Also in my reading it was said that the .260 had less wind drift and less drop at 1000 yds. than the 300WM with 85% of the energy. I haven't done much research on those numbers, but read that several different places. Trigger on the LRP was GREAT right out of the box at about 12 oz. after some barrel break in it looks to show some great promise.
Hope this helps a little bit,
Marty
260rem and 6.5cm are ballistically equivalent. the difference is probably inside the noise of other factors like how fast your individual barrel is.
if you want a rifle to show your friends and to occasionally go out and shoot at a target 1000 yards to a mile away until you hit it and if that makes you happy, then the 300wm will do just fine.
if you want to shoot often, so that you become proficient in things like reading the wind, then the 300wm is one of the worst choices you could make. you'd be better off with something in the 6mm or 6.5mm short action cartridges.
if you want a rifle to show your friends and to occasionally go out and shoot at a target 1000 yards to a mile away until you hit it and if that makes you happy, then the 300wm will do just fine.
if you want to shoot often, so that you become proficient in things like reading the wind, then the 300wm is one of the worst choices you could make. you'd be better off with something in the 6mm or 6.5mm short action cartridges.
Llama Bob
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I agree with this - there's not really many GOOD reasons to step up from 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor, the various 6mm BR variants, .243, and .260.
6.5-284 is slightly more competitive at the 1000 yard line if you're shooting F class. Various hotter options are better for > 1000y, but if you're shooting at those ranges you should know what your options are and how to evaluate them for your specific application.
FL-NC
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Call me an old fuddy duddy, but with decent scope and ammo, and good fundamentals, a gun like a 700 5R in 308 will do sub MOA to 900 yards and beyond. Ammo data and availability is limitless in 308. Do you see yourself pushing out further? Do you want 300 win for terminal performance, or some other benefit?
Nature Boy
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What's your budget?
What targets will you be shooting at? Specifically.
Where does H&H Precision claim 1/4 MOA long range accuracy?
No commercial rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA at long range, in my opinion. A 1/4 MOA rifle (and ammo) has to shoot no worse than that to be so claimed. I know it's emotionally popular to claim rifle and ammo accuracy based on the smallest group fired. Problem is, equalling that is hard to do. Rifles and ammo shoot their tiniest groups just as often as the biggest ones.
Neither will the most accurate ones used in benchrest matches as well as those shot in prone position shoot inside 1/4 MOA. Once in a great while, the best of them will do that well, but it's more luck than anything else. All tested shots inside 1/2 to 2/3 MOA is the best one can realistically hope for, but then only with precision handloads and a custom built rifle.
Someone mentioned a Rem 700 5R in 308 will do sub MOA to 900 yards and beyond. If that's true, why are they not used to produce the best results in long range matches? Who tested several of them at 900 yards and beyond with no single group larger than one MOA?
The .260 had less wind drift and less drop at 1000 yds. than the 300WM with 85% of the energy? Not according to Sierra's software. The .260 has 10% more wind drift and about half the energy at 1000 yards. The .260's 140 grain bullets drop about 380 inches and the .300's 190 grain ones about 290 inches at 1000.
Where does H&H Precision claim 1/4 MOA long range accuracy?
No commercial rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA at long range, in my opinion. A 1/4 MOA rifle (and ammo) has to shoot no worse than that to be so claimed. I know it's emotionally popular to claim rifle and ammo accuracy based on the smallest group fired. Problem is, equalling that is hard to do. Rifles and ammo shoot their tiniest groups just as often as the biggest ones.
Neither will the most accurate ones used in benchrest matches as well as those shot in prone position shoot inside 1/4 MOA. Once in a great while, the best of them will do that well, but it's more luck than anything else. All tested shots inside 1/2 to 2/3 MOA is the best one can realistically hope for, but then only with precision handloads and a custom built rifle.
Someone mentioned a Rem 700 5R in 308 will do sub MOA to 900 yards and beyond. If that's true, why are they not used to produce the best results in long range matches? Who tested several of them at 900 yards and beyond with no single group larger than one MOA?
The .260 had less wind drift and less drop at 1000 yds. than the 300WM with 85% of the energy? Not according to Sierra's software. The .260 has 10% more wind drift and about half the energy at 1000 yards. The .260's 140 grain bullets drop about 380 inches and the .300's 190 grain ones about 290 inches at 1000.
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Marty B
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Quote from the Berger manual:
"When compared to the popular long range load of a 190 grain Sierra Match King pushed at 2900 fps, the 140 grain from the 260 has over 15% less wind drift and shoots slightly flatter. The 140 grain bullet has almost 90% of the 300 WM's energy at 1000 yards and yet generates 60% less recoil.
"When compared to the popular long range load of a 190 grain Sierra Match King pushed at 2900 fps, the 140 grain from the 260 has over 15% less wind drift and shoots slightly flatter. The 140 grain bullet has almost 90% of the 300 WM's energy at 1000 yards and yet generates 60% less recoil.
Llama Bob
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The 6.5s definitely have less wind drift in all configurations I care about. Drop, supersonic range and energy depend on which one you hot rod more. They're pretty similar.
That's the key point though, they're PRETTY SIMILAR at range, but one is a magnum that beats you up and steals the contents of your wallet, and the other is cheap and comfortable to shoot.
The only reason to shoot a .300 WM at long range is if you need terminal performance.
That's the key point though, they're PRETTY SIMILAR at range, but one is a magnum that beats you up and steals the contents of your wallet, and the other is cheap and comfortable to shoot.
The only reason to shoot a .300 WM at long range is if you need terminal performance.
Llama Bob
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I'm pretty sure he's talking about these folks:
H+H..............................................as in Holland and Holland?
http://hhprecisionrifles.com/
Which appear to have nothing to do with the Brits.
Offfhand
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Never sell the .300 Win Mag sort for long range accuracy, especially if you're shooting against one. The rubber hits the road in actual competition and over the past four decades and longer the .300 WM has probably won more Wimbledon and Leech cups at Camp Perry and other LR competitions than other calibers combined. Attached is photo of the .300 WM target rifle Jim Cloward built for me nearly 40 years ago. Cloward himself won the Wimbledon in '76 with a similar rifle. I've shot many LR matches with it, including two Perry 1000 yd.shoot-offs. Shilen barrel is still good but a few years back I switched to a hot "barrel burning" 3200 fps+ 6.5 wildcat. Slower calibers won't cut it when the wind blows off Lake Erie.
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Belted 30 caliber magnums were no longer favored for NRA long range prone matches back in the 1990's when good quality 26 caliber match bullets were available. The winningest round in such events since then has been the 6.5x.284 round in spite of its 800 round barrel life compared to 1200 for the 30 caliber magnums. The most accurate of all of them are equal; all test shots inside 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards. Once in a great while, one will put 5 shots in a couple of inches. Seldom, if ever will one do that well again.
I ran Berger's software for 30 caliber 190s leaving at 3000 fps from a .300 Win Mag and 26 caliber 140s leaving at 2700 fps from a .260 Rem. Here's their numbers at 1000 yards:
30 cal 190, 1475 fps, 918 ftlb, 7.66" drift/mph
26 cal 140, 1387 fps, 606 ftlb, 7.94" drift/mph
I ran Berger's software for 30 caliber 190s leaving at 3000 fps from a .300 Win Mag and 26 caliber 140s leaving at 2700 fps from a .260 Rem. Here's their numbers at 1000 yards:
30 cal 190, 1475 fps, 918 ftlb, 7.66" drift/mph
26 cal 140, 1387 fps, 606 ftlb, 7.94" drift/mph
That could be your issue Bart. Just about everybody in the PRS crowd shooting 140 hybrids from a 260rem is in 2850 fps range. I'd be surprised if any were under 2800. Heck I'm shooting a 6.5x47 excruciatingly slow at 2790 and my 260 load is 5 more grains of powder
Offfhand
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Quoted from above post"
"Belted 30 caliber magnums were no longer favored for NRA long range prone matches back in the 1990's"
Then how come I and a lot of other top shooters were winning LR matches with belted magnums then? Several of us, including myself got the ball rolling for 6.5 over the course back then but still picked up the .30 magnums for long range. Attached is photo of 6.5 wildcat that was a LR game changer about 2000. I no longer shoot prone but this round has been a winner at 1000 yd BR. For comparison that is a .260 Rem on left.
"Belted 30 caliber magnums were no longer favored for NRA long range prone matches back in the 1990's"
Then how come I and a lot of other top shooters were winning LR matches with belted magnums then? Several of us, including myself got the ball rolling for 6.5 over the course back then but still picked up the .30 magnums for long range. Attached is photo of 6.5 wildcat that was a LR game changer about 2000. I no longer shoot prone but this round has been a winner at 1000 yd BR. For comparison that is a .260 Rem on left.
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Thank you sirgilligan. The H&H gun I believe was right at $3,800. That would be ok. A friend told me once that the difference between 1st & 2nd, in time, was in fractions of a second but the payoff was tremendously different for 1st. I imagine the law of diminishing returns also applies to guns. How does money buy you accuracy? I mean, will an extra thousand dollars buy you a 1/4 MOA? The 6.5 seems like a good way to go. Who makes these that I can compare to H&H's? And Their 1/4MOA guarantee. By the way, they were advertising this on the Sportsman's Channel. As long as I'm here, what should I look for in a long distance scope? I see Night Force and Vortex on several of the shows and commercials. If memory serves, optics can rival the cost of the gun. And I've never loaded bottle neck cases but I think this old dog can learn a few more new tricks. Thank you folks.
Of course, some 30 caliber mags were used to win the long range matches after the 26 caliber ones became the favorite. "Favorite" doesn't mean "only" cartridge used. I don't think the 300 Win Mag has won the most times in all the long range NRA matches since they started in the early 1870's when the Leech and Wimbledon Cup ones originated. The .30-06 may well have won the most since the early 1900's. No belted magnum won any until 1935.
If the 260 can shoot 140's out at 2800 plus fps, then so can the 300 Win Mag shoot 190's out at 3200 fps. As long as nobody agrees on a specific peak pressure that's confirmed by SAAMI spec test equipment, we all can load way past proof cartridge levels.
If the 260 can shoot 140's out at 2800 plus fps, then so can the 300 Win Mag shoot 190's out at 3200 fps. As long as nobody agrees on a specific peak pressure that's confirmed by SAAMI spec test equipment, we all can load way past proof cartridge levels.
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USSR
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When I was shooting 1,000 yard F Class about 10 years ago, the .260 was the most commonly used cartridge. With the right powder (usually H4350), the 139 - 142gr bullets were capable of 2800fps easily while staying within SAAMI pressure specs. Although, I started out shooting with a .30 caliber, I quickly switched to the 6.5mm and found I needed 5 MOA less "up" while enjoying less recoil.
Don
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