I'm never selling a Rock River again!

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C J Atkins used a box stock RR SR to win the Presidents 100 in 2004 becoming the first junior to do so. His score of 298-15 is only one point off the all time record. The Pres 100 has been shot since 1903. If you do a search it says he used a Bushmaster. He did not and that caused a bit of problem with sponsorships but that is another issue. The report was wrong.

I guess he got the good one and they don't make em like they used to.

FWIW I don't have a RR.
 
You obviously don't have very much experience with AR15's. "Lego" AR15 or not, Colt is not the undisputed best AR15 manufacturer. They are good, I won't argue that. I never said they don't work... But they aren't the best... Many manufacturers can match and even exceed their quality.
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Thanks for your vote of confidence.

The names you mentioned are not AR15 MANUFACTURERS, they are ASSEMBLERS.

What your example of the three named individuals says is like saying Armand Swenson manufactured 45s or George Barris manufactured Chevrolets. They assemble 45s and build custom cars from parts or even whole products obtained elsewhere.

You may know what you like better in the world of AR15s, but it's obvious you don't understand much about the manufacturing industry.
 
Sure, most of them use a handful of the same contractors, but that doesn't mean that they don't have different QC standards or do any of their own work in house.

I work in the industry. I have a good grasp on how things work. ;)
 
I don't know what the big fuss about RRA is. They got this big following going back 3 years ago due to the fact that they were an accurate, well made AR for a low price. Those days are gone. They used to be $600 -$650 which is a touch above a kit, but with nearly Bushmaster quality.

That was the whole lure. The price was $200-$300 lower, but with nearly equal quality (and a great trigger). Still though, Bushmaster is better and offers chrome lining and 4150 steel as standard and more barrel profile options too.

Now that RRA is pricy, there's no attraction (for me anyways). Those that got in during the early days got the deal. Yet, the buzz about RRA has carried on. Quite a bandwagon. I feel it is somewhat unjustified, but to each his own.

I'm not saying they're junk. They are still among the higher quality AR's, but what made them popular isn't in play anymore (low price, high quality).

If anything, there are a lot of other better lowers out there. MEGA lowers are not only finished better (more uniform, thicker) but they are machined much better. Threads are much sharper and cleaner, chamfers and other surfaces are smoother and more uniform etc. Details that might not make a difference, or they might. Just making a point that in the world of lowers, the label of the roll stamp does not equate to top quality. I'm not talking out of my ass, my eye for detail and a set of calipers and various gauges forms my opinion.

Best thing RRA has going for it is the use of the Wylde chamber for increased accuracy and the 2-stage trigger, which I have and I love in a different rifle.
 
BigG said:
The names you mentioned are not AR15 MANUFACTURERS, they are ASSEMBLERS.
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Lewis Machine & Tool is not a manufacturer?

News to me. That's who forged the stripped lower in my LEGO set. I got the rest of the LEGOs from John Holliger at White Oak (who IS an "assembler," and a damned fine one, too). Turn up your nose if you wish.

Be proud of your Colt and its resale value. I'm proud of my Colts, though they're all handguns. As for my AR, it's not a car and I won't be selling it.
 
Armalite tried to get the U.S. Government to adopt the AR10. When that fell threw and the military went with the M14, they shifted gears and started work on the AR15. Once they had a working prototype they licensed the gun to Colt who then started producing the AR15 and won the U.S. military contracts starting with the Air Force in 1961. By 1963 the Army was ordering rifles for use in Vietnam.

Early Colt rifles were actually marked Armalite as was all the supporting literature.

Armalite went belly up and Colt continued with the M16 contracts for the military until FN started edging them out. Colt then developed the M4 with a patented feed ramp geometry and won the exclusive rights to manufacture the M4.
 
Sure, most of them use a handful of the same contractors, but that doesn't mean that they don't have different QC standards or do any of their own work in house.

I work in the industry. I have a good grasp on how things work.
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I accept your apology. Since you decided to crawfish, however, I doubt if you have much understanding. If you indeed sell AR15s then you sell what you can make a profit on because I doubt if you are a charity. Its no sin to peddle what you can get cheap but don't try to put it on a pedestal.

If you are talking about a guy who is a skilled AR15 mechanic. Heck, anybody can assemble one. The difference is Colt has better quality control in the parts. Whether you want to acknowledge that or not, there is a difference between the parts and if you are truly knowledgeable a brand X part is not "as good as a Colt."
 
Well, since I have been thrown under the buss here a few times, I figure I can chime in my hay penny.

I have worked on an AR or two, even an M4 here and there. I was a recipient of a bunch of Colts that were badly out of spec and they told us they sat in the warehouse too long and that they were out of warranty. Pound sand, thank you very much. So dont sell me the song and dance that they are as good as it gets in parts and assembly. I had 82 out of spec E series barrels.

Rock River.:barf: Sure we started out with them, they worked well. But along the way they like so many others before them had a few successes and let the pursuit of greater profit margins get the best of them. Now they use sub-standard parts and do a shoddy job of assembly. I took this nice little armorers kit that Crane gave me and slapped a few gauges on a couple of guns the DOC brought to me to get fixed. They were out of spec in several areas. Sure the receivers and sights were ok, but they buy them from Stag, go figure. The stock is just one of my complaints.

That song and dance about the heavy barrel being more accurate it just so much crap too. We have benched Stags with the military taper and gotten clover leaf groups too. BFD. Use the wrong ammo and you wont hit the wall of a barn even if you are inside.

So for me here is the long and the short of it. I get a Stag, it goes out and I dont have to worry about the customer coming back crying cause I sold him a POS. If it does come back for some reason, Stag takes care of them. Period.

It is not rocket science for some monkey to put together a gun (despite the best efforts of my 18B's, I still have to round up spare parts and finish the job.... poor guys.:neener:). Heck, I do a pretty decent job myself. But if it is not milspec, it does not come into the store. For he!!'s sake, milspec is a minimum set of standards. There are lots of parts that exceed it. Being milspec is like getting your GED. Anybody should be able to do it. RRA doesn't.
 
The names you mentioned are not AR15 MANUFACTURERS, they are ASSEMBLERS.
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Umm check the forging marks on your "Colt" uppers and lowers. Colt farmed them out. So I guess they're just an assembler. Oh and that little mouse on your charging handle that isn't a colt marking either.
 
I accept your apology. Since you decided to crawfish, however, I doubt if you have much understanding. If you indeed sell AR15s then you sell what you can make a profit on because I doubt if you are a charity. Its no sin to peddle what you can get cheap but don't try to put it on a pedestal.

If you are talking about a guy who is a skilled AR15 mechanic. Heck, anybody can assemble one. The difference is Colt has better quality control in the parts. Whether you want to acknowledge that or not, there is a difference between the parts and if you are truly knowledgeable a brand X part is not "as good as a Colt."
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You accept my apology? For what? I just wasn't in a confrontational mood earlier today... I should have know that is what you are truly looking for though.

Don't mistake my agreeing with you that many manufacturers use subcontractors as a retreat on my position or as any kind of apology for anything... I don't even know what I could apologize for. For correcting your incorrect statement? I think I did people a favor by not letting your uneducated posting influence people. For that I refuse to apologize.

In fact, if you re-read my post you will see that I went ahead and mentioned the most important part was that different manufacturers have different QC standards and most of them also do much of their own work in house with parts AFTER the sub contractors got it through various phases of completion (something that varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and part to part)... Something you left out until this latest post where you state the same thing, only to say that Colt is the only one who has any kind of QC. THIS IS FALSE. Colt is not the only one who takes their own QC precautions. The precautions vary from manufacturer. Some make more of a difference that others.

You made it seem in your previous post that all manufacturers just get parts from sub contractors, put them together and sell them with their own roll mark w/o any kind of QC steps or additional procedures (and I called you out on that in my last post)... Now in this post you have backtracked...

You must have some reading comprehension issues. And I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you have struggled to be consistent in your points. Maybe someone hijacked your THR account...

You have assumed a lot in my postings here as well.

I don't care what knowledge you THINK you have... I know what I know from my own experience and in dealing in the industry. And no amount of you stating to the contrary will change that.
 
You sell sling mounts...
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Among other things... Not that it matters what else I sell. I fail to see how the fact that someone might sell sling mounts means that they are incompetent when it comes to AR15's. It proves nothing really, in and of itself.

I work in the industry, I go to the shot show, I know and speak to people at these companies, I have friends and acquaintances at various LE/military agencies who buy/test/field large amounts of AR15's. I also build/fix/shoot AR15's on my own as well. I spend quite a bit of my work and personal time keeping up on all things related to the AR15.

It's something that I am genuinely interested in. I have a just as much as a personal interest in it as I do a professional interest.

BigG claims to simply be a "gun enthusiast with a lot of gun experience, not somebody who learned about guns by playing video games." (was this some kind of assumption on his part that I learned about guns from video games?) Good for him. Does this make him an expert because he didn't learn about guns from video games? Does he deserve a medal?

I mean, this isn't even the point... He said Colt was the best out there (false) and backed up his love for Colt by stating that "LEGO" AR15's (as he called them) don't hold their value (false again as well as irrelevant to the discussion).

You don't even have to be an expert in the industry to call BS on that... ;)

Colt makes a fine weapon. I will even say one of the better ones, but to say that Colt is definitively above all the rest and has no equal is just false. That was my original point and I stand by it.

If he really wants to prove his point, he could provide examples of how exactly Colt is better, what they do, what that procedure/materials used means and how it is beneficial to do it, how it applies to real life (examples are good, preferably first hand), and then prove that nobody else takes those kinds of precautionary measures. Somehow I doubt we will get to read about that from him.
 
Can I step in?

We've had this discussion before..........

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=303250

I've been in RRA's shop, they don't do any manufacturing at all. Most if not all of their parts are brought in from the outside. About all they do there is some finishing and hand fitting.
They use a couple of small local machine shops for the machining of upper and lower receivers etc..........
I agree with an earlier post, RRA has lost it's luster. No longer lower priced and complaints of lower quality.

Colt is a high quality manufacturer of quality AR-15s. If you're going the complete gun route you'd be hard pressed to do better than Colt.

And yes, Colts at the very least hold their value, people are willing to pay for quality.

I'm not saying you can't hand select parts and build a top notch quality AR, you can and I have. That's not being discussed here.

John Hollinger @ WOA and WOP is more than an assembler, he turns his own barrels among other things, which is way more than I can say for RRA.
 
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Apparently some get pretty serious about this.

I was shopping and a major part of my decision weighed upon the noises
made by all moving parts. I was able to assume my own belief, that some
brands- made sounds (and feels) which I disapproved of.
I listened to most brands mentioned here.
Few made sounds which I really liked.

I narrowed my interests down to two,
then eliminated one by political beliefs.

Ya'll have a nice day.
 
Quote:
RRA stripped lowers here are $139 and no wait!

I meant direct from RRA.

From the time I place my order until they arrive in the shop takes 4-6 months.
Now I am a small shop and only order a dozen or so at a time, so am probably low on their radar. But the same order with Double Star, CMMG, or DPMS I have in my hands in 4-5 days.

Try www.anvilarms.com, really nice Teflon finish, nice color and really nice fit. On par with MEGA, and better than the newer RRAs. Usually no wait.
 
I'm not saying you can't hand select parts and built a top notch quality AR, you can and I have. That's not being discussed here.
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Well, technically, if you include it in all of the "LEGO" discussion, then it is (or was) being discussed by some...
 
Among other things... Not that it matters what else I sell. I fail to see how the fact that someone might sell sling mounts means that they are incompetent when it comes to AR15's. It proves nothing really, in and of itself.

I work in the industry, I go to the shot show, I know and speak to people at these companies, I have friends and acquaintances at various LE/military agencies who buy/test/field large amounts of AR15's. I also build/fix/shoot AR15's on my own as well. I spend quite a bit of my work and personal time keeping up on all things related to the AR15.

It's something that I am genuinely interested in. I have a just as much as a personal interest in it as I do a professional interest.

BigG claims to simply be a "gun enthusiast with a lot of gun experience, not somebody who learned about guns by playing video games." (was this some kind of assumption on his part that I learned about guns from video games?) Good for him. Does this make him an expert because he didn't learn about guns from video games? Does he deserve a medal?

I mean, this isn't even the point... He said Colt was the best out there (false) and backed up his love for Colt by stating that "LEGO" AR15's (as he called them) don't hold their value (false again as well as irrelevant to the discussion).

You don't even have to be an expert in the industry to call BS on that...

Colt makes a fine weapon. I will even say one of the better ones, but to say that Colt is definitively above all the rest and has no equal is just false. That was my original point and I stand by it.

If he really wants to prove his point, he could provide examples of how exactly Colt is better, what they do, what that procedure/materials used means and how it is beneficial to do it, how it applies to real life (examples are good, preferably first hand), and then prove that nobody else takes those kinds of precautionary measures. Somehow I doubt we will get to read about that from him.
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I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing on the Colt issue. It is the "I work in the industry, I know what I am talking about" statement. That kind of stuff comes across as pompous, and I don't think helps further your point in the post. With that kind of statement I would expect you to say are the production manager for ________ Firearms. But going to SHOT, selling accessories, knowing LEO/MIL doesn't put you one single step above anyone else.
 
You know, the Internet is a wealth of information - also a wealth of hype and opinions. In between the muck and mire, facts tend to pop up and conclusions can be drawn based on the filtered experiences and opinions of others, sprinkled with some facts as well.

Long before I was blessed with this wealth of information, I was looking at AR-15's in a mom and pop gun shop. One, a Bushmaster - the other a Colt. The first thing I noticed was the build. The brand new Bushmaster felt "rattley" - the Colt felt tight. The Bushmaster looked like it had a fair to midland paint job, the Colt looked uniform and parked perfectly. The feel of the Colt was just...well...right. I bought it. Through the years, my Colt has been side by side on the bench with many a make - from Bushmasters with their plastic trigger guards, to some really nice looking RRA's and Stags. To me, (and others), to Colt stands out - cosmetically and in terms of accuracy and reliability. It just works and looks the part too. Everything fits, nothing rattles and it's more accurate than I am by a long shot.

My Colt National match is gone now, being enjoyed by a friend who as well appreciates this fine rifle. I've been itching for another and have been doing some reading. Even points made on this very thread, (including my own thank you) are a valid tool in making a choice. So too are threads listed below:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

My choice will likely be another Colt. To me, it's money well spent. I have my own preferences, but certainly will not judge those who endeavor to buy or build the nicest rifles they can - we're all brothers in the end after all. I do know however if anyone asks me for my opinion, RRA will be low on my list and Colt will always reign supreme....
 
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing on the Colt issue. It is the "I work in the industry, I know what I am talking about" statement. That kind of stuff comes across as pompous, and I don't think helps further your point in the post. With that kind of statement I would expect you to say are the production manager for ________ Firearms. But going to SHOT, selling accessories, knowing LEO/MIL doesn't put you one single step above anyone else.
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I don't claim to be above anyone. All I am saying is that I know people in this business and deal with them. I speak with them. Just because I am not the production manager for __________ firearms doesn't mean I haven't spoke with that person.

That is all it takes to get the skinny on the subject, and that is my point. Any person can speak with the people at Stag, Colt, RRA, LMT, etc and get this information for themselves... This information isn't all exactly closely guarded, or super secret.

It would be similar to as if someone said, "The real estate market is bad" or something. Well, you don't have to work in real estate to know that, but people who work in the industry (loan officer, appraisers, agents, investors, etc..) would know it as well as anyone...
 
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hags said:
John Hollinger @ WOA and WOP is more than an assembler, he turns his own barrels among other things,
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Thanks, hags. He also tunes triggers, wins matches, answers newbie questions with patience and care, and gives customers world class equipment at an amazing price.

If ever you read something by me that seems to slight or disparage John Holliger, it's either a failed attempt to emphasize by understatement or a simple failure to type all of the words that I should.

Oh, and what does Colt have that no one else has? It's simple: they own the only mine from which can be dug the Magic Pixie Dust that goes into Colt's steels. Grind up a Colt and run it through a mass spectrometer: you'll see that it's true.

Magic Pixie Dust makes Colts shoot straighter, look prettier, be cooler, hold their value longer and yes: Cost More.

Magic Pixie Dust just makes a Colt better. ;)
 
Thanks, hags. He also tunes triggers, wins matches, answers newbie questions with patience and care, and gives customers world class equipment at an amazing price.

If ever you read something by me that seems to slight or disparage John Holliger, it's either a failed attempt to emphasize by understatement or a simple failure to type all of the words that I should.

Oh, and what does Colt have that no one else has? It's simple: they own the only mine from which can be dug the Magic Pixie Dust that goes into Colt's steels. Grind up a Colt and run it through a mass spectrometer: you'll see that it's true.

Magic Pixie Dust makes Colts shoot straighter, look prettier, be cooler, hold their value longer and yes: Cost More.

Magic Pixie Dust just makes a Colt better.
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No problem, I couldn't agree more about John.

Now, about the second half of your post............
 
Mr. Holliger is currently building an upper for me. Unfortunately I want something weird (.30 HRT) so it's going to be another 2 months or so.
 
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