B.D. Turner
Member
I sprayed about 100 suspects with OC spray while working as a deputy. Our duty spray was 5.5% OC and worked most of the time. Most gave up the fight and a few just got mad and wanted to fight more.
I'm starting to second guess pepper spray
- Thread starter beardxxxd
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JW:Jeff White said:
Today has been a rough day at work. I gotta thank you for the inadvertant humor you stuffed into your post: "armed with sarcasm."
I had a buddy like that in college. Unfortunately, all his sarcasm got him was a beat-down by gangbangers and an arrest at the security checkpoint at the airport (pre-9/11). It seems that a cutting retort is no match for a knuckle sandwich or steel bracelets.Pepperspray:
It is a fine tool for what it is. I don't think I will add it to my already-laden belt any time soon. Also, places that are CCW-unfriendly also seem to be OC-spray unfriendly, too.
CCW Heroes:
Thanks, but no thanks. Maybe when I was single. Now that I have a family to care for & feed, I will have to be near 100% sure before interveneing in any altercation. I will, however, do my duty as a citizen and report what I saw to the best of my ability.
Sean Dempsey
Member
True Story... consider this:
My mom was set to marry a man named Bob. They lived in Southern California in the 1970's. Bob was a softspoken, gentle man who didn't carry weapons and had no real temper. Just a calm dude. Well, here is the story my mom tells...
One night, bobs friend needed a ride home from a bar, he was pretty drunk. Bob and my mom went to pick him up, and on the way out, his friend picks a fight some some Bikers.
The friend and the bikers start shoving, and Bob tries to intervene and get his friend out of there safely. Notice, Bob didn't try to "third man in", he was telling the bikers his friend was drunk and meant no harm, and they'd be on their way. He was doing his best to de-escalate the situation.
The biker pulled out about a 6" knife and ripped it through Bob's gut. Bob did not survive long. Both my mom and the drunk friend were uninjured.
To this day, my mom has never known why the biker killed Bob instead of the drunk friend. He was just the designated driver, trying to haul his dumbass drunk friend home.
Is it the same thing as what we are talking about? Not exactly. Should Bob have left his friend fight his own battles? Did Bob do anything he shouldn't have done?
Sad story. I don't think my mom ever fully recovered.
My mom was set to marry a man named Bob. They lived in Southern California in the 1970's. Bob was a softspoken, gentle man who didn't carry weapons and had no real temper. Just a calm dude. Well, here is the story my mom tells...
One night, bobs friend needed a ride home from a bar, he was pretty drunk. Bob and my mom went to pick him up, and on the way out, his friend picks a fight some some Bikers.
The friend and the bikers start shoving, and Bob tries to intervene and get his friend out of there safely. Notice, Bob didn't try to "third man in", he was telling the bikers his friend was drunk and meant no harm, and they'd be on their way. He was doing his best to de-escalate the situation.
The biker pulled out about a 6" knife and ripped it through Bob's gut. Bob did not survive long. Both my mom and the drunk friend were uninjured.
To this day, my mom has never known why the biker killed Bob instead of the drunk friend. He was just the designated driver, trying to haul his dumbass drunk friend home.
Is it the same thing as what we are talking about? Not exactly. Should Bob have left his friend fight his own battles? Did Bob do anything he shouldn't have done?
Sad story. I don't think my mom ever fully recovered.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
I went through the gas chamber 4 times. While my ability to fight was hampered and impeded, I was most certainly not incapacitated.
Our Study Group performed a test with Fox Labs spray. A retired, Vietnam era Air Force colonel volunteered. He was certainly past his mid-60's, maybe 70? I don't ask his age . . . its disrespectful. He was sprayed full on in the face, and was given instructions to attempt to fight if he could, to the extent he could, and the drill would end at his call. He was able to fight, with diminished capacity, but still managed to put his hands on the man who sprayed him, and could have still delivered lethal blows with a weapon.
It has its uses. I can't see it serving as anything more than a distraction while I hastily left the area.
Our Study Group performed a test with Fox Labs spray. A retired, Vietnam era Air Force colonel volunteered. He was certainly past his mid-60's, maybe 70? I don't ask his age . . . its disrespectful. He was sprayed full on in the face, and was given instructions to attempt to fight if he could, to the extent he could, and the drill would end at his call. He was able to fight, with diminished capacity, but still managed to put his hands on the man who sprayed him, and could have still delivered lethal blows with a weapon.
It has its uses. I can't see it serving as anything more than a distraction while I hastily left the area.
I took a faceful of the evil stuff and I'd rather eat the butt out of a dead moose than to go through that again.
I'd rather get kicked in the manly area with a steel toed engineer boot wrapped in barbed wire.
That stuff just ain't right...
Biker
I'd rather get kicked in the manly area with a steel toed engineer boot wrapped in barbed wire.
That stuff just ain't right...
Biker
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Jeff was trying to save people a lot of trouble by pointing out the hidden pitfalls.
Squidward
Member
I've seen pepper Spray/OC etc not work too many times for various reasons. I'm not a big fan of it.
As far as intervening in someone else's situation; don't be a hero, be a good witness.
As far as intervening in someone else's situation; don't be a hero, be a good witness.
"If we allow ourselves to be marginalized to the point where we scare the public or just flat don't matter, RKBA is done. That's why I am so conscious of the public image we portray here."
I frankly think, with all due respect, that you're full of it on this issue.
The people working against RKBA don't care if you hunt ducks with a single-shot breakopen shotgun. They want it. They want it sawed in three pieces and tossed into a smelter. They want you in a gulag or at least prison, for presuming to own such a dangerous item in our advanced, civilized society.
They don't care how 'nice' or 'cultured' you are, they want you disarmed and out of the way. Being nice and sensitive won't save us, it will only embolden them. Now isn't the time to say 'be nice, kids, somebody that's out to get us anyway may use this against us'. They don't care about using our own words against us, they'll make them up if they have to. I refuse to give them the power to silence me by way of fear.
CCW holders aren't officers of the peace. They have neither the training (usually), nor legal obligation to intercede in violent situations.
HOWEVER: human decency requires us to intervene if we have the power. How much intervention is reasonable is up to the person in the situation, and they will be judged, whether by twelve or their own conscience.
If you want to do the right thing, consider deputization and LEO training. Otherwise, caution is the order of the day.
Also- I personally consider using pepper spray only a step above actually shooting someone. If the target has an allergy to the compounds, or is in frail health, their death is a very real possibility. Responsible use, therefore, remands this type of product to 'last resort' status, at least in my book.
I frankly think, with all due respect, that you're full of it on this issue.
The people working against RKBA don't care if you hunt ducks with a single-shot breakopen shotgun. They want it. They want it sawed in three pieces and tossed into a smelter. They want you in a gulag or at least prison, for presuming to own such a dangerous item in our advanced, civilized society.
They don't care how 'nice' or 'cultured' you are, they want you disarmed and out of the way. Being nice and sensitive won't save us, it will only embolden them. Now isn't the time to say 'be nice, kids, somebody that's out to get us anyway may use this against us'. They don't care about using our own words against us, they'll make them up if they have to. I refuse to give them the power to silence me by way of fear.
CCW holders aren't officers of the peace. They have neither the training (usually), nor legal obligation to intercede in violent situations.
HOWEVER: human decency requires us to intervene if we have the power. How much intervention is reasonable is up to the person in the situation, and they will be judged, whether by twelve or their own conscience.
If you want to do the right thing, consider deputization and LEO training. Otherwise, caution is the order of the day.
Also- I personally consider using pepper spray only a step above actually shooting someone. If the target has an allergy to the compounds, or is in frail health, their death is a very real possibility. Responsible use, therefore, remands this type of product to 'last resort' status, at least in my book.
Solid_Snake
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2006
- Messages
- 8
I apologize if this is a hijack reply, but the topic of pepperspray has been on my mind for a while.
I hike with my German Shepherd quite often, and I live in an area where coyotes roam, and some folks let their dogs loose. The coyotes I'm not too afraid of, because they tend to shy away, but I've had too many run-ins with loose dogs.
Luckily, my dog is huge and most other dogs will charge, then realize his size and slow down enough for me to squirt them with the water bottle I carry. I don't want to hurt these dogs, because it's their owners' fault that they are loose. However, I also don't want my dog hurt because of someone's else's irresponsibility.
I've searched online for proper sprays for this purpose, but I'm unsure of their effectiveness and potency. I maybe dreaming, but I'm looking for the best of multiple worlds:
1.) Something that will stop/deter a charging dog, while
2.) Not seriously damage that dog, and
3.) Has a stream compact enough not to cross contaminate my own dog.
Appreciated.
I hike with my German Shepherd quite often, and I live in an area where coyotes roam, and some folks let their dogs loose. The coyotes I'm not too afraid of, because they tend to shy away, but I've had too many run-ins with loose dogs.
Luckily, my dog is huge and most other dogs will charge, then realize his size and slow down enough for me to squirt them with the water bottle I carry. I don't want to hurt these dogs, because it's their owners' fault that they are loose. However, I also don't want my dog hurt because of someone's else's irresponsibility.
I've searched online for proper sprays for this purpose, but I'm unsure of their effectiveness and potency. I maybe dreaming, but I'm looking for the best of multiple worlds:
1.) Something that will stop/deter a charging dog, while
2.) Not seriously damage that dog, and
3.) Has a stream compact enough not to cross contaminate my own dog.
Appreciated.
michaelbane
Member
When I was jumped eight years ago, there were people standing around that could have done something, but didn't. A woman driving by pulled over and started honking her horn, scaring away the attackers. You bet I was upset that nobody else had the decency to try to help me.
While there are a lot of instances where you can't tell who started what, there are going to be some "obvious" situations. Being a good samaritan is not the same as vigilanteism.
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ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Koobuh
You will note that Jeff said
He's not addressing the people infected with political rabies here.
He's addressing the normal, everyday, don't-even-know-there's-a-fence-to-sit-on people. The people who go along with their daily lives worrying about the car repairs and mortgage and Tommy's college tuition. The people who, when you ask them about the 2nd Amendment, kind of squint and say, "hadn't really thought about it."
Those people. They hear the rabid lunatics somewhere in the background noise, along with stock prices and the latest reason America is overweight. If those people are introduced rationally, their ability to reason will filter out most of the rabid frothing they hear from the emoti-droids.
If their introduction to the world of pro-RKBA is some all-camo, over-caffinated, uber-tacticool, under-literate, swaggering attitude monger, the rants of the rabid are going to resonate more with them.
Appeal to their reason.
We're not going to save those already committed to stupidity. Most of them are beyond salvage. They are not our audience.
The guys who have never had to think about the rape of their girlfriend/wife/daughter, the ladies who have never had to think about the carjack/kidnap of their defenseless child, the retired couple who never really worried about their neighborhood: these are your audience.
They vote. Respect them.
You will note that Jeff said
He's not addressing the people infected with political rabies here.
He's addressing the normal, everyday, don't-even-know-there's-a-fence-to-sit-on people. The people who go along with their daily lives worrying about the car repairs and mortgage and Tommy's college tuition. The people who, when you ask them about the 2nd Amendment, kind of squint and say, "hadn't really thought about it."
Those people. They hear the rabid lunatics somewhere in the background noise, along with stock prices and the latest reason America is overweight. If those people are introduced rationally, their ability to reason will filter out most of the rabid frothing they hear from the emoti-droids.
If their introduction to the world of pro-RKBA is some all-camo, over-caffinated, uber-tacticool, under-literate, swaggering attitude monger, the rants of the rabid are going to resonate more with them.
Appeal to their reason.
We're not going to save those already committed to stupidity. Most of them are beyond salvage. They are not our audience.
The guys who have never had to think about the rape of their girlfriend/wife/daughter, the ladies who have never had to think about the carjack/kidnap of their defenseless child, the retired couple who never really worried about their neighborhood: these are your audience.
They vote. Respect them.
Sean Dempsey
Member
I'd have done something in your case. If I had a gun, might have pulled it if it looked like severe injury was going to occur. I definitely would have done something to try and stop the attack.
Your story is 100% different than the example above of a "dude" beating on his woman outside a bar or something. That I wouldn't stop. I lived next store to a family that was pretty violent and had the police there multiple times. I would never stop them. One night, the husband severely beat the wife, she had to be taken away to the hospital. Should I have done something, I could hear them screaming? Well, they were a drug family running meth, and both were later charged with manufacturing. What if I had knocked on the door to see what was wrong?
You never know. If you can't tell what is going on - get the police there.
I think Jeff's attack was not meant to be personal, but it is a knee jerk reaction to some people who think a CHL is a license to play cop. Wannabes are scary and usually get themselves or other people hurt. I know 2 people who got hurt trying to break up a fight, one injured (bullet to the neck) and one stabbed to death. If your not a trained law enforcement officer, then your a civilian, always get the pros involved first. If you know the person/situation, or if someones life is definately in danger, then by all means help out. With todays tech simply yelling, "leave him/her alone, I called the cops" and taking out your cell phone, will at least stop most altercations.
Running up to a scene, without knowing what is going on and spraying all parties involver with OC, does not seem smart.
Running up to a scene, without knowing what is going on and spraying all parties involver with OC, does not seem smart.
Jeff White wrote:
The reality is, that few of these situations are so clear cut that you can be 100% sure you're making the right decision when you decide to intervene. And in most of those cases, staying out of it and being a good witness is the best course of action.
With all due respect (and much respect is due) and acknowledging what seems to me to be logical points that are solidly supported, I do not believe 100% certainty is the appropriate standard of proof for choosing to intervene. First of all because you can never reasonably be 100% certain. Second, because if you ARE 100% certain, then you are going to get blind-sided because you are almost certainly missing something.
That said I am glad you are bringing this up. I am not carrying (China's CHL laws make California look like Texas . . . do I mean Texas?) but I am a firm believer in the duty of the strong to protect the weak. It makes good sense to look real carefully at the circumstances before you stick your neck out.
THAT said I see that the above quote does not specifically state to wait until you are 100% sure. I simply thought it did.
I'll BET new CCL holder tend to feel like saving the world! Many got it to be prepared to intervene in evil. Good ideals but idealism untempered by experience ALWAYS makes a mess. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Cook
The reality is, that few of these situations are so clear cut that you can be 100% sure you're making the right decision when you decide to intervene. And in most of those cases, staying out of it and being a good witness is the best course of action.
With all due respect (and much respect is due) and acknowledging what seems to me to be logical points that are solidly supported, I do not believe 100% certainty is the appropriate standard of proof for choosing to intervene. First of all because you can never reasonably be 100% certain. Second, because if you ARE 100% certain, then you are going to get blind-sided because you are almost certainly missing something.
That said I am glad you are bringing this up. I am not carrying (China's CHL laws make California look like Texas . . . do I mean Texas?) but I am a firm believer in the duty of the strong to protect the weak. It makes good sense to look real carefully at the circumstances before you stick your neck out.
THAT said I see that the above quote does not specifically state to wait until you are 100% sure. I simply thought it did.
I'll BET new CCL holder tend to feel like saving the world! Many got it to be prepared to intervene in evil. Good ideals but idealism untempered by experience ALWAYS makes a mess. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Cook
Pepperspray is effective for what it is. It produces pain and seriously impairs someones ability to see. However consider that in prisons gaurds are armed with peppersprays that are several times stronger than anything you can legaly own as either a civilian or is used by police. They have stuff up around 30% capsaicin that can cause almost immediate involuntary vomiting and defecation to be used in riot type situations, but routinely use 10-15% solutions for most fights etc. Mere civilians are limited to a max strength of from around 2%-5% in most states. Police tend to have around a 5-10% stength and thier sprays are off limit to most civilians.
That said prisoners routinely continue to stab and kill eachother while being drenched in shower fashion from fire extinguisher sized canisters that perform just like the bear repellant (felony to use on humans) canisters you can purchase. They may be in excrutiating pain for hours afterwards and even have thier skin peel off similar to serious sun burns, but it didn't stop them in the moment when filled with adrenalin. Keep in mind these are strengths that are many times above anything you can legaly buy.
The main advantage of pepperspray is in legaly blinding someone that poses a threat. Unless your going to be around a few minutes later the additional effects of the spraying are not likely to significantly help you. A police officer on the other hand that can back away for a couple minutes while the intense burning goes above the thresh hold of the supsect and he becomes non combative is another story.
If you do use pepperspray be sure to change locations from where the suspect last saw you as thier ability to reaquire your position will be severely hampered.
Also keep in mind the misleading strength % on canisters. Often they refer to % of oleoresin capsicum, simply meaning amount of oil of suspension, not amount of the capsaicin. A 5% OC can be weaker than a 2% OC especialy if they mix additional vegatable oil in thier product (or use chili varieties not as hot as possible due to higher yield) in the manufacturing as that counts as OC too. Look up the definition of oleoresin and capsaicin.
That said prisoners routinely continue to stab and kill eachother while being drenched in shower fashion from fire extinguisher sized canisters that perform just like the bear repellant (felony to use on humans) canisters you can purchase. They may be in excrutiating pain for hours afterwards and even have thier skin peel off similar to serious sun burns, but it didn't stop them in the moment when filled with adrenalin. Keep in mind these are strengths that are many times above anything you can legaly buy.
The main advantage of pepperspray is in legaly blinding someone that poses a threat. Unless your going to be around a few minutes later the additional effects of the spraying are not likely to significantly help you. A police officer on the other hand that can back away for a couple minutes while the intense burning goes above the thresh hold of the supsect and he becomes non combative is another story.
If you do use pepperspray be sure to change locations from where the suspect last saw you as thier ability to reaquire your position will be severely hampered.
Also keep in mind the misleading strength % on canisters. Often they refer to % of oleoresin capsicum, simply meaning amount of oil of suspension, not amount of the capsaicin. A 5% OC can be weaker than a 2% OC especialy if they mix additional vegatable oil in thier product (or use chili varieties not as hot as possible due to higher yield) in the manufacturing as that counts as OC too. Look up the definition of oleoresin and capsaicin.
beardxxxd
Member
this is why i dont post much here.. (and the internet forums in general)
it always turns into a pissing match over who knows more or people taking everything as a personal attack..
i ran into "confusion" over pepper spray.
thank you for those that gave some info and opinions. ( right or wrong)
im the most sarcastic person in the world.. and i enjoy someone posting nonsense and getting a laugh out of it.. but please when you come onto the internet please leave you overly filled testorone balls at the door
have fun here guys, and learn something from others info and opinions.
thanks again.
it always turns into a pissing match over who knows more or people taking everything as a personal attack..
i ran into "confusion" over pepper spray.
thank you for those that gave some info and opinions. ( right or wrong)
im the most sarcastic person in the world.. and i enjoy someone posting nonsense and getting a laugh out of it.. but please when you come onto the internet please leave you overly filled testorone balls at the door
have fun here guys, and learn something from others info and opinions.
thanks again.
kungfuhippie
Member
Remember the last episode of Seinfeld? They were thrown in jail for breaking the "good samaritan law" while they watched, video taped and made fun of a fat guy get car jacked at gun point...What an episode.
the local gun shop has peper-gel it looked in the picture like a very thick coat of orange gel would cover the BG. Would this be more effective? I have to agree with the comments that CCW's should not play superman, but should be good people, if I can tell what's going down and help I will, even with out my CCW. But I'm not superman, don't wanna be superman (except for the xray vision).
the local gun shop has peper-gel it looked in the picture like a very thick coat of orange gel would cover the BG. Would this be more effective? I have to agree with the comments that CCW's should not play superman, but should be good people, if I can tell what's going down and help I will, even with out my CCW. But I'm not superman, don't wanna be superman (except for the xray vision).
I have not seen it myself, but I can deduce logicly that it would be less effective immediately. Simply because pepperspray has to absorb into the skin (and mucus membranes) before it becomes active, this is rapid, but the more gel like it is the larger the molecules and the slower its absorbtion and less intense the immediate pain, though once effective it would likely be more difficult to remove, but that does not really help in self defense. The smaller the molecules which lead to faster dermal penetration, the thinner the substance and less viscous it is likely to be. More of the active ingredient, and less of the non active ingredients the more immediate it is likely to effect someone. Of course there is ingredients that can help to open the pores of someone making the main ingredients penetration more rapid, camphor,menthol, alcohol, ether etc are non toxic pore opening ingredients that I think would increase its effectiveness. Gel and thickening agents however would be counterproductive. It needs to absorb fast, not stick to you like napalm
kungfuhippie
Member
can-o-napalm would work better than pepper spray
That makes sense gel=less effective.
That makes sense gel=less effective.
sparky2726
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2006
- Messages
- 67
LMAO GR8COOK, I have spend more time than I care to think about in a 6'x9' cell fogged full of OC. You learn to work through it.
Oh the joys of working at a supermax.
Sparky
Oh the joys of working at a supermax.
Sparky
Manedwolf
member
I'd think they can scoop it off and whip it back at you.
I prefer Fox Labs OC. From everything I've heard, while most other brands can be a weak, anemic squirt from a can that might sting their eyes, THAT brand is sheer liquid hell. I've heard of at least one case where a lady got an attacker with it, and the cops found him pushing his face in the snow, screaming.
Works for me.
kungfuhippie
Member
ROTFLMAO All BGs should have this wonderful expirence
Maybe a gun with a built-in pepper spray so when the seasoning doesn't work the main course can fill them up
michaelbane
Member
I saw a product a few years ago that was almost "built in". It was an attachment, like a light or laser. They had both a pistol and a long gun version. I wish I had bookmarked the website.
kungfuhippie
Member
not sure I'd want to have to draw my pistol to spray someone, it was a joke. Not surprised someone make it.
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