I'm Surrounded by Antis - Help!

[forquidder]

perceptions

One question asks itself when I read this and that is; do your relatives generally view you now, and through the years, as a generally level headed individual who makes good decisions and can be trusted?
The whole situation seems to have gone into hysterics when, in my mind, it could have been handled in a more tight lipped, even handed way than it has. Your decision to carry is a personal one which is an extension of your own morals and beliefs, it is not a matter of consensus vote. The decisions over whether or not to carry into another persons house can be made with a simple, generalized discussion about that issue without implicating yourself. You made the decision to tell the people who don't neccesarily need to know and now you are paying for it. The only other person who might have been on a need to know basis would have been your wife and if she trusted your judgement through 32 years of marriage, I would think that your decision to carry would have been seen as a more natural progression than the apparent "off the wall" move that it appears to her (them) to be.
Concealed is concealed, physically as well as mentally. It appears you've gone too far in outing yourself to ever be trusted by them to make the correct decision on whether to carry anywhere. So it appears you have two choices, throw the CCW in the trash and put the gun back in the safe, or, carry according to your own conscience while respecting the wishes of the others who know on property where they have control and suffer whatever consequences aris from that. And if they ask in areas where they have no say, you don't need to answer, a wry smile will suffice.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

This is gonna sound really harsh. . .

My brother and daughter have declared their homes "gun free zones". They have a right to make whatever rules they want in their homes. But that means I would need to leave my gun in the Jeep when I visit them - or go without.

I'm a vet who's seen more than enough combat on three different continents, beginning with the Carter fiasco and ending with Bush, Sr. I spent a number of years wearing a federal badge and dealing with the nation's human sewage.

The day after September 11, 2001, I drew my own line in the sand.

Anyone who doesn't respect or honor my civil rights--and the Second Amendment is a big one that I exercise--along with my service and dedication to this country's freedom and security and the wounds and injuries I suffered in helping defend the country and the concept of freedom . . . those people simply cease to exist in my world.

I'm fortunate. The overwhelming majority of my family is staunchly conservative. The tradition for the menfolk is that you join the service after high school or you do some sort of law enforcement. Most of us did both. Bottom line is that in our family, you're expected to serve your country and do your part in keeping it safe, secure and free.

That thought extends to securing ourselves from attack by scumbag criminals or home invaders or burglars.

I do that by carrying a firearm and staying proficient with it--as does my wife.

Had my wife, when I met her, been anti-gun, we never would've made it to a second date--let alone the altar. Nobody on her side of the family, yankees they might be, refuses to let us in their home because we might be carrying a gun. They do not always carry, but they are staunchly supportive of the right to do so.

On my side of the family, there are two households in which the women married liberals and guns are not welcome. We haven't set foot in those households since 9/11 and will not. We do not exchange Christmas cards, phone calls or any other communications. The last time these two family units showed up at our bi-annual family reunion, very few other family members gave them the time of day.

They made their choice on how to think and how to live. I'm not bending my convictions in order to appease theirs.

Jeff

 

[Vermont]

I read some wise words from a member in another thread. I will try to paraphrase here. You want to carry a weapon so you can protect your family, so why would you risk losing members of your family by insisting that you will carry no matter how they feel about it?

I'd put it on hold for a while. Perhaps gentle persuasion over time will work. Until then, do what you can to be safe in other ways. The fact is, there is a minuscule chance you will need to use the gun and from what you've said here there is a very good chance that this will hurt your family if you continue carrying.

There is no good answer here. My advice is don't let this tear your family apart.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

This goes beyond a simple case of being anti-gun and anti-self defense. This is an issue of respect, power and control. Your wife and daughter are attempting to exert their power over you of familial affection/love in order to control you.

I maybe be a walking rectum but these people do not respect you. If the kids are grown I'd seriously consider splittin' the blankets 50/50 with the control freak wife and hit the trail.

 

[rainbowbob]

Will they out you to other parties because of their beliefs? It's a question you need answered for obvious reasons.

CB900F: I'm not sure what you mean by this? Why is that such a crucial question?

The answer is: My wife has already discussed this with my daughter, my daughter with her husband, my brother with his wife. They all think I'm the one that's nuts in creating this terrible problem.

 

[Hokkmike]

You want to carry a weapon so you can protect your family, so why would you risk losing members of your family by insisting that you will carry no matter how they feel about it?

Very good quote Vermont!

 

[armoredman]

They are projecting thier fears of how out of control THEY would be if THEY had access to a firearm. I wish I had a quick easy answer, sir, butI don't. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[forquidder]

....

 

[RPCVYemen]

The only way to get someone to respect your opinions is to respect theirs.

I have never seen any forward progress with "I don't respect yours because you don't respect mine."

You don't have to agree to respect.

Mike

 

[rainbowbob]

I really appreciate the general support, good suggestions, and various view-points (everything from "hang up your guns" - to - "split the sheets".)

Believe me, I am taking it all under advisement.

Your wife and daughter are attempting to exert their power over you of familial affection/love in order to control you.

Perhaps, but I think it is not so much a control issue as the fact that they really do sincerely believe I am putting myself, and them, and my grandson, at grave risk. Not because they believe I am reckless, but because they believe I am misguided about the safety and advisability of CCW.

They can and do make the argument that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about since I don't have a life-time of LE or military training and experience.

I do have a couple of years of shooting, a great deal of research here at THR and elsewhere, a 6-hour course taught by LEOs on Personal Protection and the Use of Force, FATS simulator training, good target results at the range, etc. None of that is enough for them to even consider I am at least somewhat knowledgeable.

They are projecting thier fears of how out of control THEY would be if THEY had access to a firearm.

Yes...I think that is true. They know NOTHING about firearms and so they would in fact be unable to control one.

They also have unrealistic fears about guns magically going off and shooting someone with no provocation (e.g., if it is dropped or bumped). Additionally they seem to fear that a gun has other magical properties (like the ring in "The Ring") that turn good men evil by its very presence.

It is pretty hard to convince them of their fallacies, particularly when they refuse to listen to the facts and are, in effect, sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la-la-la-la".

Trying to talk to anyone who is certain they are right, and you don’t know what you’re talking about, so don't confuse me with the facts, is about is as much fun as: :banghead:

 

[lvcat2004]

I hate to say this...but.....if you've taught your daughter from young age to shoot, then she would've been on your side

It appears that your adult daughter is set in her ways, so I think the only options are:

1) don't carry around them
2) carry a small caliber firearm and nobody would know unless when you are saving your families or your life, in which case they will finally appreciate your judgment and foresight.

I have a Keltec P3AT in Desantis Nemesis holster in front pocket, and really, nobody knows....and I'm thin, live in Las Vegas with light clothing.

 

[Bezoar]

only reason your wife is going along with the children is because they are playing the trump card of "no get to see grand babies" if you got guns.

The options are either to keep your guns and kiss the family good bye, or to kiss the guns good bye with the ability to protect yourself.

Its a no win situation. The best you could hope for is to have a nice little pocket gun, Keltec say, anytime your in public with the kids.
Its too late to try to change the kids views on guns. State liscence asside.

 

[rainbowbob]

I hate to say this...but.....if you've taught your daughter from young age to shoot, then she would've been on your side.

I can't argue with that. Coming to this decision later (rather than much sooner) in my life is a major part of the problem. Now it seems like something weird and unnatural to them.

BTW, Ivcat, I carry a Chief's Special in a Mika pocket holster - so it is pretty discreet.

 

[misANTHrope]

I don't think that going with a pocket pistol is an answer in this situation. Perhaps if deep concealment had been operative from the beginning, it could have prevented the situation getting to where it is now. But the way things stand now, it doesn't sound like it'd be possible for him to get away with even a well-concealed gun, unless it means lying blatantly about it.

I'm a relatively young man in the grand scheme of things, but I learned many years ago that a relationship with lies at the core is seriously unhealthy. Thus I don't think that being deceitful about carrying is going to be the answer. A the very least, it would cause trouble within the marriage.

That leaves us with the two "truthful" options which have already been enumerated here- either disarm and risk losing the ones you love, or continue to arm yourself... and risk losing the ones you love. One loss is the permanent kind, the other is simply a loss of contact.

From my quarterbacking easy chair, I lean towards the latter option. But then, I'm not a parent or grandparent. I can't identify with the feelings that might accompany having no contact with a grandchild. I guess it seems to me, though, that by sticking to your guns, (sorry) you might just plant a seed of understanding that could bud one day.

In any case, I wish you the best in your situation. There are certainly no easy answers to be had here, and I don't envy your position...

 

[rbernie]

Perhaps, but I think it is not so much a control issue as the fact that they really do sincerely believe I am putting myself, and them, and my grandson, at grave risk. Not because they believe I am reckless, but because they believe I am misguided about the safety and advisability of CCW.

They can and do make the argument that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about since I don't have a life-time of LE or military training and experience.

I do have a couple of years of shooting, a great deal of research here at THR and elsewhere, a 6-hour course taught by LEOs on Personal Protection and the Use of Force, FATS simulator training, good target results at the range, etc. None of that is enough for them to even consider I am at least somewhat knowledgeable.

If you promised that all of your firearms would be securely locked in a safe during the duration of any visit by your grandchild, would your daughter allow your grandson to visit?

I'm willing to bet that the answer is, or shortly becomes, no.

I hope that I'm wrong.

 

[Green Lantern]

A small issue in the grand scheme of this giant cluster-you-know-what - but maybe you could point out to your brother and daughter how well the "gun free" zone worked in Columbine, Virginia Tech, ANY shooting in Illinois (in effect, as NO civvie is supposed to carry a gun in public there), etc etc etc...

I know you already said you don't wanna lie, but "concealed is concealed" may be the only way to balance keeping them happy and keeping yourself (and them) SAFE. However...

carry a small caliber firearm and nobody would know unless when you are saving your families or your life, in which case they will finally appreciate your judgment and foresight.

Ain't any guarantees on that LAST part there...

I kinda like the idea of asking your bro and daughter to put up signs to the effect that it's a gun-free home. Abrasive, yeah, but maybe it'll make them THINK as to WHY it's a bad idea to advertise that you don't approve of guns and/or harbor pacifist views...

However, as another poster has said, you gotta be careful they don't turn the tables on YOU - as they have already by not exercising very much discretion about keeping your CCW "CONCEALED."

This goes to ALL CCW holders: Once you tell someone you carry, you can NEVER, EVER, "un-tell" them! :wow:

Even though they're in "la-la land," you might do some research and hammer them with so much pro-CCW evidence that they about HAVE to start thinking about it. Maybe drop some $$$ on good-quality training classes (heck, we could ALL use that, right) to help make it harder for them to "project" their fears onto you.

OR, just do as they say and drop it.

OR, *discreetly* carry and ACT like you've dropped it.

OR, carry anyway and be open about it, and see if your daughter really thinks so little of you as to live up to her threats.

I'm listening to some Nightwish right now, you seem like a decent person and your daughter...not so much. Lyrics from "The Kinslayer" feel somewhat appropriate here:

Good wombs hath borne bad sons..

Talking with the Man Upstairs may be of some use too, I know that's what I'd be doing in your place!

Good luck, please keep us posted.

 

[jaholder1971]

You're surrounded by idiots controlled by emotion and not logic.

The daughter needs to be told you control your house and not her. She has the right not to enter it if she chooses. The wife has the right to leave as well if she doesn't like it.

BTW concealed is concealed. Unless she plans on posting her house with the legal gunbuster signs for your state you're under no obligation to deny yourself protection she is unable to provide.

I'd sever ties to the nutjob brother. Pacifists have done nothing throughout history but get people killed.

Some hard choices have to be made. I made similar choices and usually reason overcame emotion. On the other occasions it was a pleasant loss.

 

[savetheclaypigeons]

find what it was that sparked your interest in guns or made you want to carry and push that side. Also, a female pro-gun companion around your wife would do you wonders. Take a few people out to the range. Teach them that if safety is a priority guns can be enjoyed, not feared

 

[SuperNaut]

How many years did it take you to decide to CCW? Now you want your family to come around in an instant? I know that some on THR may have difficulty wrapping their heads around this idea, but there are other ways to defend yourself. Maybe less effective than a firearm, but you are kinda stuck.

It took me years to turn my wife from an anti into a staunch 2a advocate; slow and steady wins the race. You got a tight deadline or something?

 

[Zoogster]

Ha, the other day the news mentioned the Heller case (not as the Heller case, but as " Supreme Court considers whether D.C. residents can have handguns", as always trying to limit the importance or effect of the ruling just in case)
and I tried to explain it to the person in the room.

Thier reply? To instantly make excuses why D.C. is different, and since we have important politicians there like the president it makes sense to ban guns there! That way anyone found with a gun can be arrested in D.C. legaly able to stop a problem before something else is done.
That people in D.C. don't really need guns anyways because there is no place to hunt there! :banghead:

I instantly had about 10 differnet replies enter my mind.

I mentioned a ban in DC does not really matter, anyone from all the surrounding states can have a firearm and can transport one there anyways. That if someone is planning to use them for an illegal purpose that will get them life in prison or death another law is not going to stop them.
That it mainly benefits criminals because they will simply have loaded firearms, both long arms and handguns as well as other items anyways, and can then have the advantage over those who follow the law.
That D.C. has had such a ban since the 70's and is one of the most dangerous parts of the country.
That hunting has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd. The 2nd actualy exists to protect the citizens from those politicians in the government and thier agents.

Needless to say they wanted to hear none of it. Guns are okay for this person and they own some, but D.C. is different, and they were willing to support any gun control there.
I was baffled.

They quickly jumped to the defense of the D.C. gun ban simply because it exists, and then created reasons and built thier logic at the time to support it.
This person though does the same thing for other laws. If they already exist the explain them by looking for some logic, and then using that to justify them. If it is already a law, there must be a reason, and therefore it is valid. :banghead:

Its no surprise though. The UK was once the firearm capital of the world. Carrying a pistol in a pocket was something a prim and proper English gentleman did.
Now they shriek in panic at the thought of someone carrying a pocket knife over there, and if someone even so much as believes a person has one the police will stop and check them with no legal hurdles.

 

[TwitchALot]

He does live in the real world - he's a judge who sees all kinds of bad stuff every day. He replied with the old "Violence is NEVER the answer!" routine.

"Saying violence is never the answer is as silly as saying it is always the answer. But if you insist it's never the answer, I'd like to see you tell everyone here that if they were being raped, robbed, beaten, or attacked, you wouldn't do anything about it. You wouldn't even call the police for them, because you know they would use violence IF they got there in time, and violence is never the answer. :Wait: Well?"

But the family members I'm dealing with here are absolutely convinced that I am putting THEM at increased risk by carrying a firearm in their presence. They are certain that if I draw a weapon in a robbery attempt for example, I will be escalating a simple, relatively safe little robbery into a gun fight. Innocent lives (mine, theirs) will be lost needlessly. If only I hadn't insisted on CCW. I've brought this horror into their lives unbidden!

Yes - they actually believe if you give the robber what he wants - they will be on their merry way with no harm, no foul. I agree there may be times when "giving it up" is the right thing to do. But sometimes it will end badly and it is hard to know how will it go.

You want to deal with anti-gun people, you have to have the right tools. I guess these guys forgot to go to criminal school or missed class that day.

Do I resign myself to CCW when I am alone and hope nothing bad ever happens when I am with my family?

I say no. Let's suppose you ignore what I just said and something bad does happen. Will you be able to live with yourself?

My brother and daughter have declared their homes "gun free zones". They have a right to make whatever rules they want in their homes. But that means I would need to leave my gun in the Jeep when I visit them - or go without.

They have all gone so far as to say that nobody should have to be in the presence of an armed man without that person's knowledge. They believe I should assume everyone feels as they do and that every home is a "gun-free zone" unless other-wise posted.

I'm a big fan of rights, so I would say either you respect their wishes, disarm, or don't visit. If they don't tell you anything, however, and just let you in, there's no reason you should disarm yourself. If it's not a stipulation of entering the house, it's not "assumed." Of course, if they do find out, you'll probably have to leave or disarm, but you know what they say about concealed weapons.

Should I be asking everyone I come in contact with if they mind that I am CCW? My host at every party I attend? The manager of my Uncle's nursing home? The people where I work part-time?, etc, etc.

No.

You didn't need a gun for 30 years"..."What is the matter with you?"...etc.

"Yeah, and I hope it stays that way. What's the matter with me is that I'm not a statistic yet and I'd like to keep it that way. I don't want you to be a widow, I don't want to be a widow, and I don't want anyone in our family to get hurt, which is why I want the means to protect you guys."

Aside from all the needless drama...they REALLY believe they are at greater risk in the presence of an armed man than with an unarmed man. As WRONG as that is - they have a RIGHT to their beliefs. Do I have a right to make them (in their minds) less safe?

"So if a police officer walked by you, you'd run away (police officers are armed- make sure they know this)?"

Not because they believe I am reckless, but because they believe I am misguided about the safety and advisability of CCW.

They can and do make the argument that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about since I don't have a life-time of LE or military training and experience.

"I may not have a life-time of LE or military experience, but the guys who trained me do. Do you think the people I trained under, who have X years of LE experience and Y years of military experience have a vague idea of what they're talking about?"

They also have unrealistic fears about guns magically going off and shooting someone with no provocation (e.g., if it is dropped or bumped). Additionally they seem to fear that a gun has other magical properties (like the ring in "The Ring") that turn good men evil by its very presence.

It is pretty hard to convince them of their fallacies, particularly when they refuse to listen to the facts and are, in effect, sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la-la-la-la".

"So if I were to leave my gun somewhere, and no one touched it, you think it would go off and shoot someone? How much money are you willing to bet on that, because my house is only two blocks away, my car is outside, and my wallet is in my pocket."

"If people went on mad killing sprees by touching guns, why haven't I gone on one yet? Why haven't millions of law-abiding citizens gone on one yet? Are you saying that you wouldn't have the self-control to not go on a killing spree by touching a piece of metal?"

 

[SupernovaNole]

You said something interesting:

Aside from all the needless drama...they REALLY believe they are at greater risk in the presence of an armed man than with an unarmed man. As WRONG as that is - they have a RIGHT to their beliefs. Do I have a right to make them (in their minds) less safe?

You have to ask yourself do they have a 'right' to make you (in reality) less safe?

Tough situation for sure. I would try to take them shooting and try to get them to appreciate the fact that you haven't taken this responsibility lightly. You've gotten training and educated yourself on the legal and moral responsibilities associated with ccw.

I don't know what I would do in your shoes but there is no way in hell I would take a threat from my daughter to withhold visitation with my grandchildren for any reason.

She may not agree with your political views but there is a line that should not be crossed and she has crossed it. Having not been in that situation I can't tell you how to respond but you can't let that one pass without repercussion because she may use that tactic in the future to get you to accede to her wishes in another context.

Good luck and I'm sorry you are going through this.

SupernovaNole

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Rights vs Rights

Robert wrote my main answer already, so I'll skip that part.

It seems you're willing to acknowledge their right to be irrational and behave like immature, badly informed folk while, on the other hand, they are unwilling to acknowledge your right to self-protection.

They are poorly informed and, using irrational reasoning, have reached an irrational conclusion. You won't win an argument with that.

Robert's right. It's about control.

There's nothing honest about an irrational fear resulting from bad facts and bad reasoning.

Your journey from ignorance to enlightenment, which led to your learning to shoot and getting trained to use the means of self defense, has taken you beyond the boundaries of their comprehension.

This is important: the data in their calculations is false data. The way they reason with it is less important. You will have to fix the false data first. The reasoning will be easier to fix once the data is right.

 

[Snapping Twig]

I used, but did not fire, a pistol in the defense of my then pregnant wife. We are - wife, daughter and myself - alive today because of it. Neutralize the male, rape the female, kill the witnesses scenario.

My wife and daughter know the value of an armed person against overwhelming odds as you can imagine.

My Mother and sister are both committed "progressives" and as such, they each told me I shouldn't have had the gun. I asked them what SHOULD I have done and they repeated that I shouldn't have had the gun.

I asked them if our deaths would have made them feel better and again they repeated that I shouldn't have had the gun and what about the other guy's civil rights? *%#@! So I ask you now as I asked myself then, why bother reasoning with them? They are lost in a world of their own creation, a world in which you don't fit. Do what you have to do.

I told my family that I make no apologies for our survival, I didn't feel poorly about scaring the two thugs away and that because a mature adult had a gun (me), no one got hurt ultimately. Surely this is a progressives fantasy goal. They just muttered about guns bad and all that, but didn't have the fire in their argument anymore.

Further, I informed them that any talk of progressive ideas and undermining of our philosophies to our daughter during her formative years was forbidden and would result in a long distance relationship between them and our daughter.

Daughter is 20 now, I put her through Gunsite (she did well) and she loves her Grandma and Aunt, but doesn't talk politics with them.

 

[rainbowbob]

If you promised that all of your firearms would be securely locked in a safe during the duration of any visit by your grandchild, would your daughter allow your grandson to visit?

I should make it clear that we have our grandson one or two days a week. He is truly the brightest light in my life - and he thinks I'm a rock star. Losing contact with him or the rest of my family is not an option to be seriously considered.

My daughter and her husband have made no ultimatums regarding my firearm other than insisting that I do not CC around her son. That is bad enough - but it's not like he, or they can't come over unless I clear the house of firearms. Since this fertilizer hit the portable cooling apparatus I have kept my snub locked in the bedroom closet when he is here, and I have the only key. A couple of other guns are locked in the garage.