Immediacy, ability, and intent.

[DRC]

Don???

"Yes, DRC, I understand that you're just repeating what you heard."

No, you obviously didn't since here's, and I quote, what you said:

"DRC, that's a very strange statement coming from someone who claimed "20 BM-21 warheads were found in Iraq filled with sarin and mustard"."

That says that I, Me, DRC claimed this when in reality I said that I heard on Fox News and then went and found links for you to look at and then I went and found more links from different sources with the SAME story and posted them as well.

"But, that information was incorrect. It's like the many other false reports on WMD finds in Iraq that have proved false."

Okay. Now maybe we're getting somewhere. If you would be so kind as to post your sources/links to prove your statement I will be happy to read them and respond accordingly.

Again I'm with Destructo on the fact that you've posted nothing to support your assertions and allegations. I and I'm sure many others are not going to believe the information just because you said it's true. Time for you to step up to the plate and prove something for a change.

The sky is plaid. I can even prove it. Just ask me.

Take care and if you're as good a shot as you are with viable information everyone should be quite safe

DRC

 

[DonQatU]

That says that I, Me, DRC claimed this when in reality I said that I heard on Fox News and then went and found links for you to look at and then I went and found more links from different sources with the SAME story and posted them as well.

- DRC

Oh, brother! I give up, DRC. If you want to believe they found BM-21 rockets filled with Sarin and mustard ready to use, FINE!


But.... THINK about it DRC! Wouldn't THAT have been the "smoking gun" the administation was (and still is) searching for? Wouldn't Ari Fleischer be talking about it night and day? Wouldn't it be more valuable for them to say the Iraqis had WMDs ready to deploy against US troops rather than trying to sell their bogus story about those "dual-purpose mobile hydrogen generator/mobile bio-weapons labs" turned over to us by the Kurds?

Don

 

[DRC]

Apology accepted

Seriously Don...

"DRC. If you want to believe they found BM-21 rockets filled with Sarin and mustard ready to use, FINE!"

I'm sorry if links to several different reports aren't enough for you. I'm also sorry that you have no information of your own to sunstantiate your claims. At least I was able to find the information I repeated to support what I had heard. Did the missiles contain what has been claimed? Well, it's been claimed and neither proven nor disproven so I'll ask you a similar question to the one you asked me: Don't you think that if this report was proven to be false that the media would be all over it and somehow trying to use it to discredit George Bush for trying to plant evidence and then got caught? People such as yourself want Bush to fall on his face so bad that you are willing to use any and everything to create (if nothing else) the illusion that he has and or will. Your posts in this thread are a testiment to that.

Sad. Truly sad.

To each his own I guess. It just amazes me that some people can't see their hand in front of their face under a 100 Watt bulb.

Take care and keep on keepin' on.

DRC

 

[DonQatU]

DRC, I'm not going to waste much time answering your post. Here's an article that might explain it to you better than I care to.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/steinreich8.html

Read it carefully. And read the entire article. Especially the part about those missiles you are talking about!

April 7: Fox, echoing NPR, reports that U.S. forces near Baghdad have discovered a weapons cache of 20 medium-range missiles containing sarin and mustard gas. Initial tests show that the deadly chemicals are not "trace elements."

[In the coming weeks, this embarrassing non-discovery is quickly stomped down the Memory Hole. The missiles were never mentioned again.]

Don

 

[DRC]

Um, Don...?

Is this your website? The website in and of itself has several things that I could debunk very easily. The tip off was this part:

"[In the coming weeks, this embarrassing non-discovery is quickly stomped down the Memory Hole. The missiles were never mentioned again.]"

I will agree that the missiles were never mentioned again on Fox but were by others. But the sight offers a date and then says "It's a lie" but doesn't back it up with anything and I haven't found anything to substantiate it's claims. So we're right back to square one again with me asking where's the proof they used to come up with the deduction? I will say that I'm asking this question legitimately. If the reports are false and there is proof that they are I would like to see them, but I haven't found anything proving or disproving this other than hearsay thus far. Just because someone says something was "stomped down the memory hole" doesn't tell me anything. Where's the information/proof of said statement. I was hoping there was something to the link you posted but alas I'm disappointed once again.

Thanks for trying though,

DRC

 

[ahenry]

Don, I am not interested in dialogue with you, since past conversations have proven to me that you have zero credibility or critical thinking skills. However, for the sake of those reading this thread I wish to make a comment.

Here's an article that might explain it [“false reportsâ€] to you better than I care to.
<snip>
Read it carefully. And read the entire article. Especially the part about those missiles you are talking about!

Now, how in the world are you gonna tell us that what Lew Rockwell (that bastion of journalistic reporting) said, the sole extent of which is nothing more than an assertion that people forgot about the past report, somehow proves that those missile reports were false?! You should note that I am not saying those reports about the missiles are accurate, I am only saying that you have not even come close to providing credible evidence to backup your claims that those reports were in error. Personally I couldn’t care less what you think about this issue as I think your agenda is as clear as it is repugnant. However, I think it needs to be pointed that you enjoy making claims while you fail miserably at backing them up. Ironically you do exactly what you claim the administration and the media are doing regarding WMD in Iraq.


[Edit]
Hmmm,

Apparently great minds do think alike, but it looks like DRC is a little quicker on the draw.

 

[DonQatU]

You should note that I am not saying those reports about the missiles are accurate,

........ there you go DRC, not even your "sock puppets" are convinced by your claim.

I am only saying that you have not even come close to providing credible evidence to backup your claims that those reports were in error.

Well........ proove they aren't!

Seriously..... the administration hasn't found SQUAT! Please tell me when they have so I can be SOOOOOO embarassed!

Don

PS - The term "sock puppet" is patent pending.

PPS - ahenry, that article wasn't written by Lew Rockwell. I guess you didn't read it carefully and completely as I recommended!

 

[DRC]

I've figured it out...

Don is Kisar Sose`. That has to be it! That's the only explaination I can come up with for his evasiveness.

"You should note that I am not saying those reports about the missiles are accurate,"...

Don you forgot the three dots after you took what was being said out of context.

"...I am only saying that you have not even come close to providing credible evidence to backup your claims that those reports were in error."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Well........ proove they aren't!"

Sadly, I already have but it's either not sinking in or you're just not reading.

Remember those little dots there big guy that way you can keep things straight. ahenry said the same thing I did. I've said I heard a report, proved that the report existed and then asked you to provide me with information proving the report false since your assertion is that it is. You've not upheld your end...so by default I declare myself the winner and heavy weight champion of this debate.

Sorry I couldn't help it. This debate has become so ludicrous that it's funny to me. I'm making light of it because there's just nothing left to do with it.

ahenry,

Would that I had known that Don was as adamant about his own incorrectness as he is I would not have carried this as far as I have. He does amuse me though and honestly does seem to be somewhat intelligent, just misguided.

Thank you for the kind words and take care,

DRC

 

[DonQatU]

OK, DRC! You are on record saying there were approx. 20 x BM-21 warheads filled with sarin & mustard.

I can't prove that these nonexistant warheads didn't exist.

Give it a rest, eh? Let the President parade these as evidence of finding WMDs......... like the two artillery balloon trailers!

When you've dug yourself into a deep, deep, deep hole, DRC. The best advice is to stop digging!

Those 20 sarin and mustard gas filled warheads are NEVER going to appear. Because they never existed!

Don

PS - Reread the article!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/steinreich8.html

 

[SkunkApe]

I can't believe any rational man actually believes to this day that we found 20 warheads in Iraq filled with sarin and mustard gas.

 

[Paniolo808]

I cant Believe...

I have been readin these kinds of posts for quite some time now in disbelief. Im not a smart man, dont claim to be. But for the life of me i cannot see why anyone is taking sides with a dictator. I cant see why anyone would think this man is innocent until proven guilty.

innocent until proven guilty.


You would rather take the word of someone who has done horrible things to his own people than to believe your own countrymen. Your sticking up a defending a rapist, murderer,
someone who has brought his country to ruin, who openly hates even you, the one sticking up for him, and would just as well put a bullet in your head as shake your hand. Like i said im not a smart man but i think some people are lacking the ability to see this whole thing in 3-D.


Just my .2 yen take it or leave...the hell i care

 

[DonQatU]

I can't believe any rational man actually believes to this day that we found 20 warheads in Iraq filled with sarin and mustard gas.

You're right, SkunkApe! Don

 

[SkunkApe]

Paniolo808,

I can't speak for others, but I, for one, am not "sticking up" for Hussein. What I am doing is questioning and criticizing the words and actions of our own government.

We're supposed to be the good guys; I hold our governemnt to the highest standard. I will not tolerate being fed a line of lies and propaganda in an attempt to gain my support for war, no matter how evil the target.

And consider this: if you catch a man in a lie, do you assume that lie is the only lie he's ever told?

 

[SkunkApe]

You're right, SkunkApe! Don

Thanks, puppet master!

 

[DRC]

To be fair to Don...

Don,

I reread the "article" in the link you posted. First of all it's not an article, it's Dr. Dale Steinreich thoughts on some a web page which hardly equates to proof of anything especially since he offers none. After rereading the whole page I gathered nothing more than I did before except that Dr. Steinreich seems to be a conspiracy theorist.

"OK, DRC! You are on record saying there were approx. 20 x BM-21 warheads filled with sarin & mustard."

Wrong again. I'm on record as having said I heard the report about said missiles and then referrenced and linked to the reports to substantiate what I had heard and read. The question I posed to you is can you prove your statement that they didn't exist? No you can't and no you haven't.

As to giving it a rest I will be happy to as soon as you stop misquoting, misrepresenting and taking things out of context in an attempt to support a false assertion. Until then I'll be right here to show others the reality of the whole thing.

Skunkape,

I cannot believe that any rational person would believe that these things didn't or don't exist when nothing definitive has been offered up as evidence to the contrary. Think about it this way, if I decide these missiles do and did exist then it's based on the same "facts" and rational that one would use to determine that they do not. The difference presently is that I can reference supporting information which says these weapons were found but no information has been brought forward saying they didn't other than "I know a guy that knows a guy that said they never existed."

So the contention from the opposition is the reports were fabricated, if you or anyone else has information to support this I'm more than willing to accept it if it's viable and not hearsay. Not once in this entire thread have I said that what you or Don is saying is incorrect, I've merely asked that it be proven with something of substance but there's been nothing so far.

Well, I will leave you gentlemen to it. It's been intresting if nothing else,

DRC

 

[SkunkApe]

DRC, some WMDs may in fact exist in Iraq. But its obvious that even if they do, we haven't found them yet. For crying out loud, even the Bush administration concedes they haven't been found yet.

Let me get this straight. Do you actually believe that that the United States found chemical and biological warheads in Iraq?

 

[DRC]

Skunkape

"Let me get this straight. Do you actually believe that that the United States found chemical and biological warheads in Iraq?"

What I believe with regard to Iraq and the current war is that WMD will be found and that no, President Bush did not lie to sell this war (an assinine assertion in and of itself). What I believe with regard to this report of 20 missiles being found is that it's been neither proven nor disproven to be true or false as of yet. What can be proven thus far is that the reports exist and I didn't just make it up and that there is a possibilty that these missiles are what was reported since it's not been proven false.

The sad part is that at this point the burden of proof isn't my problem since I've posted the proof necessary to show the reports exist. The burden of proof lies with Don or yourself to offer up some proof that these reports are false. Neither of you have done so. If I were to agree with you and say that these reports were false and the 20 missiles didn't ever exist I would be basing that on specualtion only just like you and Don are doing now. Did I say you're wrong in your assessment? No, I did not. I've said over and over that you haven't and can't prove the reports are false and that is my assertion.

I think part of the problem right now is that I'm looking for information and you and Don think I'm arguing to hear myself talk. What I would like to see is the information you have to support your ideas that these reports are false. If they are false, they're false but lets have more proof than "I know a guy who knows a guy..." Where are the retractions? Where are the contradictory reports? Where are the CNN reporters jumping on this to lambblast this administration? I do find it somewhat strange that this report didn't go any farther than it did, but not from a "Their all liars" perspective but rather from an "uneasy" perspective. My thinking is that there is more to it and it needed to be kept quiet and taken out of the lime light for a more ominous reason.

My thoughts? I think there is much not being said presently in order to keep from causing a panic. I think that many of the materials and products in question have ended up in the hands of the wrong people and that some are closer than we think they are presently. So if no WMD are ever found will I breath a sigh of relief? Nope. If that were to happen I'm afraid I would be in some distress wondering who had them. There are some classified report that I'm waiting to be declassified. If those materials prove my case will I gloat? No. I will become more concerned.

Take care gentlemen,

DRC

 

[Esky]

DRC, yer doin' just great.

It may seem like you're talking to yourself, but not true- I hear ya. And I agree, but haven't chimed in because you're saying it better than I could!

One small thing to consider-

If there were truly no WMDs in Iraq, and the whole thing was a lie to get us into a war, well...

Don't ya think that France, Germany & Russia would have said so publicly? Loudly and to whoever would listen?

But that's one thing they didn't stoop to, I reckon because their own intelligence services said the same thing as Mr. Bush's.

Sorry I can't provide a link to what was never said... it's like the dog that didn't bark, and that's what was strange.

Esky
who knows that ALL politicians always put positive spin on what they're trying to do....

 

[DonQatU]

If there were truly no WMDs in Iraq, and the whole thing was a lie to get us into a war, well...

Don't ya think that France, Germany & Russia would have said so publicly? Loudly and to whoever would listen?

Uh, Esky, I guess you must have missed this while you were watching the pep rally on FOX!

SAINT PETERSBURG -- Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday criticized the US-led coalition for failing thus far to uncover any of the weapons of mass destruction Washington has accused Iraq of harboring.

Putin, referring to the US-led coalition that invaded Iraq on March 20, told reporters: "Had I been in their place, I would wish I had found something. It is strange that nothing has been found yet."

Speaking after talks with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and French President Jacques Chirac, Putin said that until Iraq's alleged weapons were found, the US-British coalition's objective "has not been achieved."

"Even in its dying throes, the regime did not use weapons of mass destruction. We still don't know that it had any," he said.

Well, Esky is that PUBLIC Enough for you?

Don

 

[DRC]

Don...?

Aren't these the same countries we've more or less cut off relations with due to their lack of support, obstruction and dirty little fingers with regard to documents showing the sale of banned materials from these countries to Iraq? Isn't Putin, whom GW thought was a strong ally, the guy that surprised us all by his non support? And don't all these countries have oil intrests in a country that we liberated and are being cut off from those intrests?

Do you have any idea how much money these countries have to lose if they cannot get their contracts honored? Their already failing economies will be so far in the tank that it could cause a big ripple in the European economies in general. These countries are panicing and it shows.

As to the critisism by these people, I'll ask my same question that I've asked so many times of you, where's their proof? Just because they said it doesn't make it true just like when you say it doesn't make it true. I'm more willing to believe our guys than I am these other fellas from countires that stabbed us in the back but you believe whomever you will for whatever reason.

Esky,

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate any that read and can truly understand that there is a difference between rational thought and whatever one can classify the other thought as (if there is any thought put into it at all) To each his/her own I guess.

Thanks again and ya'll take care,

DRC

 

[Esky]

No, it isn't...

Don-

Sorry I wasn't clearer about it in my earlier post, but I really meant that BEFORE the Iraq campaign started, there wasn't ANY opposition to it from the governments of France, Germany, Russia, etc. on the basis that there weren't any WMDs. Those countries apparently didn't want war, (seems like they were doing pretty well financially, with all those little deals they had going with Saddam) and did everything they could possibly do (and more, considering that they were supposed to be our allies) to stop the US from going to war. Why wouldn't they have SAID, "Hey, Yank imperialists, there aren't any WMDs, we know for a fact that he got rid of them all!"

That's undoubtedly because their own intelligence services confirmed that Iraq had them... and for that matter, everyone knew, and there has been no dispute about it at all, that they had been used by Iraq previously; like when they used WMDs on the Kurds, in the Kuwait war, etc.

Personally, I don't give a rat's behind whether Saddam still had them or not, although the threat that they posed was real.

Unless and until he came clean & proved that he no longer had them, which he never did, for the safety of OUR country it had to be assumed that he DID have them, and would use them if he got the chance. He wasn't supposed to have SCUD missiles either, and it was a good test of our missile defense when he fired those 'non-existent' missiles at our base in Kuwait.

If in fact he HAD got rid of them, why the heck didn't he say so? Must like bombs on his head, I guess.

And for finding the missing WMDs- hey, this is a country the size of California, remember, and he had lots of time to hide things or smuggle them out to somewhere else. I reckon they'll be found eventually, and I can only pray (and I do!) that they aren't found when they are set off by jihadists in one of our cities.

Oh, and one last thing: I read the last... story? (who was it by/from? AP? Presse-France? CNN? It wasn't The Bleat, for sure!) you posted, Don, but all I get from it-- is that Putin merely said that the WMDs haven't been found yet; it still isn't known for sure that he had them; and that until we do know our objective hasn't been accomplished. That doesn't change anything, does it?

In fact the only 'criticism' in that story was put in by the unnamed reporter, in the first sentence: "Putin on Friday criticized the US-led coalition for failing thus far to uncover any of the weapons of mass destruction Washington has accused Iraq of harboring." but nothing Putin is quoted as actually saying comes out as criticism, only observations of fact.

Oh, and yeah, he found it "strange that nothing has been found yet." Me too. In fact it sorta looks to me like the 'reporter' put a heck of a lot of spin on the few words that Putin said, in order to get 'criticism' out of it. From what he was quoted as saying, I'd get the idea that Putin actually DID expect that WMDs would have been found by now, so I reckon that he too had been advised that Saddam did in fact have them.

I also find it strange that you are so adamant that Mr. Bush was 'lying' about all this. Personally, I reckon safe is better than sorry, and when you're looking at a murdering, torturing madman who doesn't like you and who has a history of wiping out people he doesn't like... well, I'd try to err on the side of caution. I'd assume the worst, and make plans accordingly; a good plan would be to disarm the madman, or to make absolutely sure that he isn't armed after all, regardless of what somebody else may think about it; and that's just what Mr. Bush did.

DRC-- just noticed your post while I was writing this one, looks like we're still on the same wavelength! And I agree once again! (Hmmm... maybe my tinfoil hat is leaking/picking up vibes....;-)


Esky
who's more interested in the Fox babes than the pep rally, if you really want to know 'the truth'