Immediacy, ability, and intent.

[DonQatU]

Uh, AMS makes/sells electronics for air defense and air traffic control.

They also made the AMETS under Marconi. Sold those to the Iraqis in 1987! Don't believe me? Do a Google search "Marconi AMETS".

I don't see that they make fermentors, much less mobile fermentation systems.

They don't and never did! And they also never made the centrifuges and and drying ovens necessary to produce bio-weapons!

Besides, what was the point of this non-sequitor?

The point of this "non sequitur" is that those two mobile "bio-weapons labs"....... were more than likely mobile hydrogen gas generators for artillery balloons used with the AMETS that the Iraqis bought from Marconi!

Don

 

[Destructo6]

Uh, how much Hydrogen are they producing for balloons? The generators I've found were very small, 18"x18" and could supply 75lpm @ 35psi. The others were gigantic.

Of course, when you generate hydrogen from H2O, you also get...Oxygen, which would be necessary for a fermentation run.

Now, in your Guardian report, it claims that three teams of international experts examined the "mobile labs" and the third was "sharply split." It doesn't mention the conclusions of the other two.

Also, their list of suspicious incapabilities within the "labs" is itself suspicious.

The lack of any trace of pathogens found in the fermentation tanks. According to experts, when weapons inspectors checked tanks in the mid-Nineties that had been scoured to disguise their real use, traces of pathogens were still detectable.

That's usually called, "cleaning." At our ferm hall, we could run one product one day (actually a 48 hour run, but you get the picture) and run another the next with no danger of cross contamination.

The lack of an autoclave for steam sterilisation, normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production. Its lack of availability between production runs would threaten to let in germ contaminants, resulting in failed weapons.

Our fermentors, whether they were 15liter or 500+liter, steam-sterilized themselves. It would be kinda silly to disassemble 1000lbs of equipment, stuff it in an autoclave, pull it out, and reassemble it, all the while trying to keep it sterile.

A shortage of pumps required to create vacuum conditions required for working with germ cultures and other processes usually associated with making biological weapons.

Why would you need a vacuum? This thing was designed for handling suspected biological agents and it needs no vacuum.

Here's some more, and from a source, Federation of American Scientists, that the Guardian quoted.

In summary, Iraq declared the production of at least 19,000 litres of concentrated botulinum toxin (nearly 10,000 litres were filled into munitions), 8,500 litres of concentrated anthrax (some 6,500 litres were filled into munitions) and 2,200 litres of concentrated aflatoxin (1,580 litres were filled into munitions);

Iraq declared that it had decided to destroy biological munitions and the remaining biological warfare bulk agent after the Gulf war. An order for destruction was claimed to have been given orally, and no Iraqi representative seems to be able to recall an exact date for the order or the dates of destruction operations. The order was said to have been given some time in May or June 1991. All filled biological bombs were relocated to one airfield and deactivation chemicals added to agent fill. The bombs were then explosively destroyed and burnt, and the remains buried. A similar disposal technique was used for the missile warheads at a separate site. In late August 1995, Iraq showed to an UNSCOM team a location which it claimed to be a warhead destruction site. However, later on, Iraq changed its story and was unable to identify with any degree of certainty the exact location of warheads destruction operations.

Of the bacterial bulk agent stored at Al Hakam, Iraq stated that a similar deactivation procedure had been adopted. The detoxified liquid was emptied into the facility's septic tank and eventually dumped at the site. About 8,000 litres of concentrated botulinum toxin, over 2,000 litres of concentrated anthrax, 340 litres of concentrated perfringens and an unspecified quantity of aflatoxin, according to Iraq's declaration, were destroyed at Al Hakam.

Current Capabilities
Iraq has medical, veterinary, and university facilities where biotechnical research and development can be carried out. Some of these facilities likely are staffed by former members of Iraq's biological warfare program. Much of the laboratory equipment is dual-use and could be used for biological agent development. Iraq has the equipment, raw materials, and know-how for bulk production of biological agents for weaponization and the means of delivering the agents. With the equipment Iraq is known to possess, 350 liters of weapons-grade anthrax could be produced each week, according to Iraq's own production figures.
The capability to perform BW R&D exists at the University of Baghdad and other universities and at various pharmaceutical facilities. A BW agent production capability could be re-established in a matter of weeks to months utilizing equipment at pharmaceutical facilities such as Samarra Drug Industries. Production, however, would be at a much reduced and limited capacity and unsafe compare to dedicated BW plants. In order to reproduce the entire BW system as it existed on 15 January 1991, including the facilities at Salman Pak, Abu Ghurayb, Taji, Latifiyah and all the destroyed bunkers, Iraq would need to spend 100-200 million dollars and 5-8 years. However, the complete BW system was a multi-facility R&D and production system with redundancy and back-up capabilities. Additionally, not all the bunkers would be required to store a militarily significant amount of BW agent. Iraq could re-establish a significant BW capability with dedicated labs, containment facilities, storage and filling capacity without duplicating the prewar system. Such a BW system without the prewar redundancy and back-up could be built within 3-4 years for less than 100 million dollars

Read the whole thing...
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/bw/program.htm
and the Guardian version:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4686547,00.html

 

[DRC]

Exceptional information Destructo6.

Destructo,

I'm glad you posted this information. I now have a better understanding of what these units are and do.

The sad part about this whole ordeal is that there are people that just don't understand the "immediacy, ability and intent" posed by Saddams regime.

We know that Iraq had and has the "ability" to create WMD and cannot account for all that were "destroyed" or even the exact location of where some were destroyed.

We know that Iraq wants occupation in other territories (Kuwait comes to mind) as well as the total anihilation of Isreal and has very anti-Amreican sentiments (although to what degree is anyones guess) Iraq also had no quams with selling what they produced to those that truly hate everything about the US so there's the "intent" to do us harm wether direct or indirect.

The immediacy? Well that's anyones guess as well. When will the next hurricane hit Florida? We don't know but if we did and we could prevent it shouldn't we do so? When will the next tornado hit? No one knows but it could happen later this afternoon or even the next five minutes, but it's going to happen at some point in time. How much risk is one willing to ignore or take?

Here's a scenario that might hit home for some while others remain hopeless

Hypothetical:

There's a guy that wants to kill someone and that someone knows it, but he can't do it without a weapon.

The killer comes to me and says "I'll pay you whatever you want if you will build me a weapon to kill this guy with."

I know the intended victim of the killer and don't much like them either so I agree and begin building the weapon.

The intended victim finds out what's going on and comes to me and tries to make me stop building the weapon, so I tell them I will just to make them go away (but of course I keep building I just do it when they're not looking or when they're asleep)

The intended victim finds out I haven't stopped building the weapon so they call the cops on me and the cops come over, but I know they're coming and I move all the components to my neighbors basement in the dead of night so they won't be able to tell what I had or where (plus I have a good friend that knows about cleaning up messes, if you know what I mean? The cops get there, don't find anything, so I throw them out because they got nothing on me and it's my house darnit!

When alls going on elsewhere I finish building the weapon and sell it to the killer. The killer has the intent as well as the ability, but he's patient and will wait until the oportunity is better to make sure his goal is met. The victim will be dead and the killer will be long gone in whatever capacity is necessary.

I got paid to arm the killer even though I was found out, told to stop building the weapon and investigated when I didn't.

Would Iraq push a button and launch a missile attack against us? I doubt it because that poses a clear and present danger not to mention a declaration of war AND we would know where it came from. No, it's much more effective to send some radical to this country and get them a nuclear device to wear under clothing. Talk about a mobile assault unit, what could be more mobile or precise than a guy or gal walking around with a device strapped to their person? The best part; who would know where it orginated from or who was responsible? That's why terror is what it is. Immediacy doesn't enter into it; it's done when it's convenient and effective not to mention at random.

Take care and thanks again for the information. Maybe one day people will use some common sense and understand the realities of all of this. Hey, I can dream can't I?

DRC

 

[buzz_knox]

I guess the "Inspector Clouseaus" are smarter than Rush Limbaugh made them out to be!

The actual inspectors (not the higher ups you see on TV) were hired by the UN based on their diversity, not their prowess. They are given a short course on how to swab things and hand the samples in. They aren't trained in what to look for or how to conduct inspections.

 

[DonQatU]

Destructo6, before, I go into the other inaccuracies in your previous post, I urge you to go back and check the information {with picture} you posted on the Captair "Pyramid". You intimated that vacuum pumps would not be needed in a "mobile bio-weapons lab".

Why would you need a vacuum? This thing was designed for handling suspected biological agents and it needs no vacuum.

By this "thing" ....you were referring to the Captair Pyramid. But ......the following is from the Captair site:

The captair pyramid enclosure is designed with an internal nozzle (fig.1), itself connected to an external connection valve (fig.2) that will be hooked up by the analytical laboratory to a vacuum pump equipped with a microporous filter membrane. The suspicious powders discovered inside the enclosure will now be found on the membrane in order to be analysed. This entire operation is performed under negative pressure, which insures the protection of the environment.

Needs no Vacuum, eh?

More after I watch the evening news. Don

 

[Destructo6]

You didn't read that very closely, did you? The pump is only required when you're doing an analysis (phase 3), in order to pump the "suspicious material" through a trapping membrane. Then, you'd analyze what is caught on that membrane. I would hope the Iraqi lab techs would already know what they put inside the pyramid.

To innoculate a shaker flask inside the pyramid a vacuum is not necessary.

 

[DonQatU]

I would hope the Iraqi lab techs would already know what they put inside the pyramid.

And I'd hope the Iraqi techs would also know how to safely move the "contents" of the "fermentation tank" to the centrifuges and drier ovens........ without vacuum pumps!

But, ........ OOPS! The centrifuges and drier ovens are also missing from these "bio-weapons labs!

Well, at least there wouldn't be a lot of wind and dust blowing through those "labs"! They have those roll-up canvas sides that really take care of that problem!

Don

PS - If the Iraqis took so much care to "hide" their other WMDs, why didn't they just put some Semtex on these "fermentation tanks" and blow them into unrecognizable scrap metal?

Nah! Let's just abandon these trailers (after they've hid everything else) and let the Kurds turn them over to the US!

Yup! That's the ticket!

 

[Destructo6]

You've never used a fermentation vessel, either, have you? You don't need a vacuum pump to remove the sup. The vessel is pressurized...open the valve at the bottom and the sup comes squirting on out. Attach a hose to the spigot and it goes wherever the hose leads it.

I don't think anybody ever said that these "possible mobile labs" were capable of manufacturing the dried type of product needed for long-term storage. If they were planning to use the the wet stuff, they'd probably need to use it rather quickly and it would make sense to have production mobile.

and you're all wet...again.

 

[DonQatU]

I don't think anybody ever said that these "possible mobile labs" were capable of manufacturing the dried type of product needed for long-term storage. If they were planning to use the the wet stuff, they'd probably need to use it rather quickly and it would make sense to have production mobile.

Excuse me if, I laugh! Now they are "possible mobile labs" !

Anyone who reads this, and knows a bit about the subject, must know who's talking crap!

Don

 

[gunsmith]

I for one was glad we did not wait

for five Iraqi Republican/Feyadeem to slip over Mexican
border with N.B.C weapons.
But if I had my way,I would declare war on every country
that the 9/11/01 perps were from,also the Palestinians
for dancing with joy in the streets at the news of thousands
of Americans dead.
Then I would put every anti gun politician on trial for threatening
the National Security,and hang the bureaucrats who introduced
the laws prohibiting Americans from bringing their guns on board planes......

 

[DRC]

Please forgive me, but...

Don???

"Excuse me if, I laugh! Now they are "possible mobile labs" !"

Usually people put things in quotes when it is being quoted by them but was said by another sos not to plagerize. I could be wrong but I'm not. I'm not sure who originally said "possible mobile labs" but the quotes would imply to me that it wasn't Destructo. Just FYI

"Anyone who reads this, and knows a bit about the subject, must know who's talking crap!"

So let me get this straight, Destructo obviously has a vast knowledge of these units and has evidently operated such (I would assume it is part of his job to handle this equipment or was at one time) You seem to have a veried knowledge of said equipment, moreso the knowledge of pieced together tidbits of information that you "think" you have an understanding of without any practicle application but perhaps with some deductive reasoning. So with that in mind you believe that anyone reading this thread will think that you know what you're talking about and that Destructo is "talking crap"??? Truly amazing. I don't know what to say to that type of logic. Seriously, I haven't the mental faculties to comprehend how you came to that conclusion.

I must be an idiot because I'm gonna have to go with Destructo seeing as he seems to know what he's talking about. I will also answer your rhetorical question by saying as I see it the one "talking crap" is the one who wrote the line, not the other way around.

Take care and remember "ignorance is bliss"

DRC

 

[DonQatU]

So let me get this straight, Destructo obviously has a vast knowledge of these units and has evidently operated such (I would assume it is part of his job to handle this equipment or was at one time)

Good question DRC! So let me ask Destructo a few questions right now for the record!

Hey, Destructo! Were you ever involved in the production of Anthrax (or other bio-warfare "stuff"? When? Where? In what capacity?

You "OK" with that, DRC?

Don

 

[DonQatU]

Thank-you, Destructo!

I don't think anybody ever said that these "possible mobile labs" were capable of manufacturing the dried type of product needed for long-term storage.

Oh..... so I guess that means they would have to use the product almost immediately! That would also make it pretty hard for dispersal.....doesn't it?!!!

Those of you who believe this might want to look at the evidence from the Hatfill case!

Destructo, please forgive me. But you obviously don't know what you're talking about! Glad DRC and others like him do!

Don

 

[Destructo6]

Again, Don, you display both your ignorance and laziness.

Oh..... so I guess that means they would have to use the product almost immediately! That would also make it pretty hard for dispersal.....doesn't it?!!!

If "immediately" in your sentance means in the neighborhood of months and years rather than minutes or hours, yes. I've found little that gave a hard time from production, since viability depends on quite a few factors, but none implied that it would be worthless almost immediately.

THE FIRST STEP IN THE PRODUCTION OF CLOSTRIDIUM VAC- CINES. SUCH AS TET????, IS TO PRODUCE LARGE QUANTITIES OF THE TET???? TOXIN. TO ACCOMPLISH THIS, LARGE QUAN- TITIES OF CLOSTRIDIUM TETANI ARE GROWN IN FERMENTERS. AS CELLS DIE AND BURST, THE TET???? TOXIN IS RELEASED INTO THE MATERIAL IN WHICH THEY ARE GROWING. THE NEXT STEP IS TO PUT THE GROWTH MEDIUM-CONTAINING THE TOXIN-INTO ANOTHER CONTAINER TO WHICH FORMALDEHYDE IS ADDED. THE FORMALDEHYDE INACTIVATES THE TOXIN, MAKING IT NONTOXIC BUT STILL CAPABLE OF PRODUCING AN IMMUNE RESPONSE. (A TOXIN THAT IS INACTIVE BUT THAT CAN STILL PRODUCE AN IMMUNE RESPONSE IS CALLED A TOXOID OR AN ANATOXIN.) THE FORMALDEHYDE-TOXIN MIX- TURE IS STIRRED, AND, AT VARIOUS INTERVALS, SAMPLES ARE TAKEN OUT AND INJECTED INTO MICE. WHEN NO TOXIC OBSERVED IN THE MICE, THE TOXIN IS CONSID- INACTIVE AND READY FOR USE IN PRODUCING VACCINE.

In this case, simply omit the Formaldehyde for some nasty bugjuice.

WITH CURRENTLY AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY, PILOT-SCALE FERMENTERS OPERATED ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS COULD PRODUCE ENOUGH TOXINS OR LIVING AGENTS EACH DAY TO LETHALLY CONTAMINATE HUNDREDS OF SQUARE KILOME- TERS.

Pilot scale fermentors were my experience. To the best of my knowledge, we only produced genetically engineered E-coli. Since you seem to know it all, Don, what is the difference between an E-coli fermentation and that of tet???? or botulism, or ...?

Oh, and add a few smiley faces, so you can appear to be playing with the kid gloves.

PS, apparently the filter pics up "a-n-u-s" so any tet??? should be, well, you know.

 

[DonQatU]

since viability depends on quite a few factors,

And those would be? How long could you keep the spores viable? Equipment needed?

And dispersal?!!!!! There it IS Destructo! The smiley face again!

See you've avoided the questions on associated equipment.

Vacuum pumps (not needed that stuff just jumps out of the "fermentation tank" into the delivery system by itself)? Drier? Centrifuge? Canvas sides on the trailer?

Heck...... they could have been making beer in that "fermentor" (as you call it). But they weren't. It was designed and used as a hydrogen generator.

It's ridiculous to think the Iraqis were so careful to dispose of all their WMDS, but they just decided to leave a cleaned tank (with no autoclave built-in or otherwise) to be turned over to the Americans by the Kurds.

Hey, Destructo! Send me a picture of that "fermentation tank". I'd really like to see that giant mother! I'd love to see if it looked more like a fermentation vessel or the hydrogen generator it was designed to be!

Oops! Smiley face again! Sorry! Don

PS - What happened to the rest of the WMDs?!!!

 

[DRC]

Don, why do you do this to yourself?

Don,

You're so amazingly wrong about everything so far that it isn't funny. I'm seriously concerned about you ending up in a bell tower with a high powered evil black rifle or something to that effect.

I'm reading your post to me and you can't even discern between a statement and a question. I felt sure that Destructo had hands on experience with the equipment in question but didn't know to what extent (an assumption on my part but based on pretty decent facts to back it up) but I never asked a question. "He is." is a statement. "Are you?" is a question. The question was asked of you and meant more like "Surely you're not serious?" I hope that helps but if not let me know and I'll be happy to help you with some of the remedial aspects of grammar.

Also your question was assinine. What these pieces of equipment do and how they operate has little baring on what is being produced in them since the process remains pretty static if I'm reading Destructos information correctly. If I may; it would be like talking about a blender (in a very loose sense) It's operation remains the same and the finished product is still frapet when you're done. The only differnece is what comes out of said blender. Since Destructo has worked with fermentors I believe he is considerably more qualified to tell us what they produce and how better than you could ever dream of. Kind of like you being more qualified to give out misinformation than I; I would never want to over step my bounds by trying to do so.

In my opinion, I believe that there is no point in continuing any further with you Don and will simply let it lye. Let those reading decide who and what they believe and hopefully the many can understand logic and truth over fiction and fabrication.

Enjoy doing whatever it is you do and take care,

DRC

 

[DonQatU]

Thinking about it...... I would guess that Destructo probably worked in some Health Department or the testing facility of some food processing company.

Nothing wrong with that. BUT way different than a bio-weapons lab! Don

 

[DonQatU]

In my opinion, I believe that there is no point in continuing any further with you Don and will simply let it lye. Let those reading decide who and what they believe and hopefully the many can understand logic and truth over fiction and fabrication.

DRC, that's a very strange statement coming from someone who claimed "20 BM-21 warheads were found in Iraq filled with sarin and mustard". What does Destructo have to say about that story?

Don

 

[DRC]

Don. Try to understand...

I repeated what I have heard on the news and read.

http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1223246
http://www.acsa.net/bioterror/895392_asp.htm
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/040703_nw_iraq.html
http://www.ondragonswing.com/journal/gaggle/archives/001026.html

Hopefully these links will at least solidify the fact that I am "repeating" and they are "saying". There have been no retractions, no definitive confirmations and no disprovals. These are just four links and four different sources, but there were 11 pages of search results on google.

Enjoy,

DRC

 

[SkunkApe]

Don, ...I'm seriously concerned about you ending up in a bell tower with a high powered evil black rifle or something to that effect.

- DRC

Stay out of there, Don! The bell tower is mine. Mwuhahahaha!

-The sock puppet of vengeance

 

[Destructo6]

I worked for the world's largest Biotech company. If I'm not mistaken, "genetically engineered E-coli" isn't used in food processing. Another mistake you could have avoided if you'd simply bothered to read.

It is rather pointless to continue since Don doesn't bother supporting his assertions before moving on to the next and ignoring valid responses.

His whole argument seems to be based on little mor than one erroneous Guardian report. Keep it up Don, your credibility can only go up.

 

[DonQatU]

I repeated what I have heard on the news and read.

- DRC

Yes, DRC, I understand that you're just repeating what you heard. But, that information was incorrect. It's like the many other false reports on WMD finds in Iraq that have proved false.

I'm not mistaken, "genetically engineered E-coli" isn't used in food processing.

- Destructo

Uh, yes, Destructo, I know that E-coli isn't "used" in food processing. But they do have people who test for it. Sorry if you felt I was challenging your bonafides!

Sure you didn't work at Fort Dietrich?!!!

I'm still waiting for pictures of that "fermentation tank" found on the Iraqi "mobile bio-weapons labs" ......or at least a description thereof. You said it weighed 1,000 pounds...... where did you pull out that information?

And no....... it's not just based on the one Guardian article. In fact, I didn't even know about the Guardian article until you mentioned it. Thank-you.

This whole "mobile bio-weapons lab" thing is just a variation of the administration's "anodized aluminum tubes for uranium enrichment centrifuges" whopper. That one didn't go very far either before people figured it out.

Stay out of there, Don! The bell tower is mine. Mwuhahahaha!

- Skunk Ape

OK, OK! You can have the bell tower. But I keep Esmerelda! And I get to say when the scalding grease is poured on the angry crowd below!

That IS the bell tower you're referring to ...... isn't it??!!

Don

 

[Destructo6]

I have no idea how much their vessel, whatever it may be, weighs. My point was that fermentors are large and unwieldy, so disassembling them, autoclaving, then reassembly is silly. You'd end up contaminating the thing in the process. The fermentor acts as an autoclave itself.

About the only parts you take off the fermentor while cleaning are the sensors (O2 and Ph), filters, and small lines that could have been contaminated by a foam out.

Here's a place with some Gi-normous fermentors, but they come in all sizes (even 1 liter versions). We probably had some of these over in the manufacturing building, but I tried to stay away from there as much as possible: donning the bunny suit is not my cup of tea.

http://www.altieri.it/fermentors.htm

They offer dryers, too. Maybe you could put together your own little facility.

 

[DonQatU]

My point was that fermentors are large and unwieldy, so disassembling them, autoclaving, then reassembly is silly. You'd end up contaminating the thing in the process. The fermentor acts as an autoclave itself.

Destructo, would you agree that IF this "fermentor" didn't have autoclave capabilities, that it was most likely just what the Iraqis said it was........ a hydrogen generator for artillery balloons?

No smileys. Serious question.

Don

 

[Feanaro]

Let us look at this situation in a different way, shall we? You see a man beating his child and it only seems to get worse. It seems as if he will kill him soon. Do you stop him or leave him be?

Now replace the child with thousands of people and beating with killing, raping and torturing. Replace man with Saddam Hussein. And replace you with you and a bunch of US military troopers.

Is that all there is to it? Of course not. If we attacked Saddam for that then why not China or some such other nasty nation?