In an AR varminting platform, does barrel length affect accuracy?

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BringHomeTheBacon said:
I don't fancy paying 1,000's for a fine custom bolt-action rifle so I figure a good AR gun built for varmints would be feasible. A Buick was once a poor man's Cadillac. An AR built for the chuck field is a poor man's varmint rifle. The Ruger American is something of a Ford Pinto or should I say a Chevy Vega for lack of overall quality.
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I spent around $2,800 on my .224 Valkyrie AR, then put a $1,600 GoldenEagle 10-60x50 scope on it…:eek:

A contemporary, rack-grade bolt action will be cheaper and slightly more accurate. For offhand shooting of ground squirrels at 100 yards a Ruger American it’s a valuable weapon. They aren’t Dodge Omnis, or Pontiac Vibes, they are the Toyota Tacoma of rifles. Cheap, effective and just won’t die.

It truly is a shame you didn’t fire it one single time. Are they glass smooth benchrest rifles? Of course not, not for less than $500. But they are accurate, and you even had one.

As a varmint rifle, accuracy requirements are tight. A one MOA rifle can miss a ground squirrel at four hundred yards. The farther one shoots them, the more tight the rifle must be. 1/2 MOA is what I’d want. A ground squirrel in Michigan is four or five inches. At 200 yards a 2MOA gun can miss it by a whole body length and still not account for wind.
While Mean Point Blank Range is nice for something like a 30-06 on deer, varmints need wind calls, holds and a proper yardage. An inch and a half high or low is a straight miss on small things.
 
FWIW, I have an older Varminter with a fluted 24” Wildon air gauged barrel. When it was new I would have put it up against any AR that I’ve seen in person. With handloads it was truly capable of remarkable groups.

IMO, exceptional accuracy is barrel, ammo. Everything else is a distant second
 
redneck2 said:
FWIW, I have an older Varminter with a fluted 24” Wildon air gauged barrel. When it was new I would have put it up against any AR that I’ve seen in person. With handloads it was truly capable of remarkable groups.

IMO, exceptional accuracy is barrel, ammo. Everything else is a distant second
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I would limit my ranges based upon my rifle, loads, sight system, actual field shooting positions and shooter ability. Practicing on paper silhouette targets the size and shape of small animals would let me know precisely what my limitations are. Clint Eastwood once said a man has to know his limitations. A $1,300 Rock River Arms Varminter with cheap surplus 5.56 and my $100 Banner 3x9 scope with a cheap Harris bipod copycat might not make the cut for 500 yard chucks but might just do so at 250 yards. This same setup might be limited as a 200-yard squirrel gun. Only range testing and time can tell. I don't fancy peeing away money on top-drawer ammunition and motor scooter priced scopes and I have absolutely no handloading interest whatsoever. It sounds like long-range varminting might be a big money game for some here.
 
Demi-human said:
I spent around $2,800 on my .224 Valkyrie AR, then put a $1,600 GoldenEagle 10-60x50 scope on it…:eek:

A contemporary, rack-grade bolt action will be cheaper and slightly more accurate. For offhand shooting of ground squirrels at 100 yards a Ruger American it’s a valuable weapon. They aren’t Dodge Omnis, or Pontiac Vibes, they are the Toyota Tacoma of rifles. Cheap, effective and just won’t die.

It truly is a shame you didn’t fire it one single time. Are they glass smooth benchrest rifles? Of course not, not for less than $500. But they are accurate, and you even had one.

As a varmint rifle, accuracy requirements are tight. A one MOA rifle can miss a ground squirrel at four hundred yards. The farther one shoots them, the more tight the rifle must be. 1/2 MOA is what I’d want. A ground squirrel in Michigan is four or five inches. At 200 yards a 2MOA gun can miss it by a whole body length and still not account for wind.
While Mean Point Blank Range is nice for something like a 30-06 on deer, varmints need wind calls, holds and a proper yardage. An inch and a half high or low is a straight miss on small things.
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A straight miss or even worse, a wounding shot. A squirrel with one ear or leg blown off vs a dead squirrel. I would strive to limit my distances to preclude hold-over/under compensation. I would limit varminting to low/no-wind value days. Crosswind velocity nil preferred.
 
You can get great accuracy out of short barrels but longer ones generally give you more velocity.

Velocity helps you with trajectory, the further the target is from the bore.

So the answer is maybe.

No one in their right mind hold say blankety that barrel length doesn’t matter because they would all call you a fool to build a 7.5” .223 for picking off dogs over 300 yards away. It just looses too much, even to a 16” barrel, that would also be a less than ideal length for those targets at that distance.

That said, if I was only going to have 1 upper to do everything .223 for me, I might accept the less than ideal long range barrel length and the too long for CQB 16” barrel.

Despite not being ideal for either job, you could make a worse compromise for both tasks.
 
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jmorris said:
You can get great accuracy out of short barrels but longer ones generally give you more velocity.

Velocity helps you with trajectory, the further the target is from the bore.

So the answer is maybe.

No one in their right mind hold say blankety that barrel length doesn’t matter because they would all call you a fool to build a 7.5” .223 for picking off dogs over 300 yards away. It just looses too much, even to a 16” barrel, that would also be a less than ideal length for those targets at that distance.

That said, if I was only going to have 1 upper to do everything .223 for me, I might accept the less than ideal long range barrel length and the too long for CQB 16” barrel.

Despite not being ideal for either job, you could make a worse compromise for both tasks.
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The accuracy doesn't change with a proper load for the barrel length, though the range may certainly change due to the change in velocity, which isn't really the same thing.

 
I started varmint hunting at about age 15, as practice for deer hunting. I only had one centerfire rifle at the time...a .30-06! It was a bit loud and not easy on my 15 year-old shoulder. The scope was a 2.5 Weaver...not the best, but the best I could afford at the time. If we didn't know the range, we'd shoot a hair low, ...sometimes the 125 grain bullet, after bouncing off the ground, would still have sufficient mass to get the critter. Missing high means NO chance to get that one.
 
A RRA Varminter will make a fine groundhog rifle with a decent scope and good handload. I have an older one that was a NRA Hipower match rifle in its earlier life. PA just legalized semi-auto's for varmint hunting last year, so I never had a chance to take it out hunting.

Figure a groundhogs head is about 2 1/2 to 3", vital body area on a big hog might be 4 - 6". How far you can hit that depends a lot on you. Shooting from a comfortable sized round bale isn't much different than from a bench with a good rest.

Ground hogs have been on the endangered list in these parts the last 5 years or so. Coyotes?
 
Picher said:
I started varmint hunting at about age 15, as practice for deer hunting. I only had one centerfire rifle at the time...a .30-06! It was a bit loud and not easy on my 15 year-old shoulder. The scope was a 2.5 Weaver...not the best, but the best I could afford at the time. If we didn't know the range, we'd shoot a hair low, ...sometimes the 125 grain bullet, after bouncing off the ground, would still have sufficient mass to get the critter. Missing high means NO chance to get that one.
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That's how I started out too. Back in the day groundhog hunting was touted as a way to practice for deer season. Stalking to within deer rifle range was encouraged. In those days not many people owned a dedicated varmint gun.
 
BringHomeTheBacon said:
I don't fancy paying 1,000's for a fine custom bolt-action rifle so I figure a good AR gun built for varmints would be feasible. A Buick was once a poor man's Cadillac. An AR built for the chuck field is a poor man's varmint rifle.
Click to expand...

Circling back on this comment:

Building or buying an AR to equivalent performance standard costs more than building or buying a bolt gun. I’ve built hundreds of AR’s and dozens of bolt guns, the logic of it proves out in practice. At every price point, a shooter gets more performance for their dollar spent on a bolt gun than that spent on an AR. Even worse value spending money on non-AR semi-autos.
 
Laphroaig said:
A RRA Varminter will make a fine groundhog rifle with a decent scope and good handload. I have an older one that was a NRA Hipower match rifle in its earlier life. PA just legalized semi-auto's for varmint hunting last year, so I never had a chance to take it out hunting.

Figure a groundhogs head is about 2 1/2 to 3", vital body area on a big hog might be 4 - 6". How far you can hit that depends a lot on you. Shooting from a comfortable sized round bale isn't much different than from a bench with a good rest.

Ground hogs have been on the endangered list in these parts the last 5 years or so. Coyotes?
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I aim not at the head but center of mass.
 
Varminterror said:
Circling back on this comment:

Building or buying an AR to equivalent performance standard costs more than building or buying a bolt gun. I’ve built hundreds of AR’s and dozens of bolt guns, the logic of it proves out in practice. At every price point, a shooter gets more performance for their dollar spent on a bolt gun than that spent on an AR. Even worse value spending money on non-AR semi-autos.
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Except for the cheesy Ruger American Ranch, I don't know of any $1,000-something bolt gun chambered for 5.56 and especially one that can handle .223 equally well. The RRA Varminter I'm contemplating has a Wilde chamber that can handle both 5.56 and .223 equally well. I like to able to choose between 5.56 and .223 based upon getting the better deal in bulk. That an AR can handle all that cheap bulk surplus 5.56 makes it a good long-run bargain. Again, if I were chuck hunting with cheap surplus NATO rounds, I would limit my shooting range in the field accordingly as necessary. I don't ever expect match-grade accuracy from an ammo can full of Chinese 5.56 from "Joe Smith's Army Navy Store". It's one of those getting what you bought type of deals. Long-range accuracy costs money.
 
 
Demi-human said:
I don’t know if anyone using a 26 inch barrel for home defense.;)
As an aside, neither of my HD-able rifles have iron sights. If the Red Dot fails, like you say, it’s close enough I won’t need it.
.
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I tried a 10.5" upper without sights at close range, just out of curiosity. I wasn't even on paper, FWIW.

John
 
BringHomeTheBacon said:
I don't know of any $1,000-something bolt gun chambered for 5.56 and especially one that can handle .223 equally well.
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Buy any 223 chambered bolt gun, pay $75 to have it throated to Wylde, and it’ll eat any 5.56 ammo you shove into it.

You can even throat it yourself if so inclined.

BringHomeTheBacon said:
Long-range accuracy costs money.
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Guys love to say this online, but it’s not true, especially for the relatively simple standard of precision you’re describing for this rifle.

Not casting any stones at the RRA Varminter, nor at the idea of precision AR’s in general (I own a bunch of my own, and have built hundreds of them for customers, so Lord knows I like the idea), but don’t imagine false boundaries in your calculus here. For the same performance downrange, you are NOT saving money to buy or build an AR, the AR will cost more and shoot worse.

Equally, asking one horse to excel on two courses isn’t terribly sensible, but your “precision” objective isn’t terribly demanding. Any 18-20” AR with a decent barrel and trigger, and a free floating handguard can do both of the tasks you’re needing.
 
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When my buddy and I started hunting woodchucks, we used our .30-06 hunting rifles, around 1960. I only had a 2.5X scope on mine and he had a 4X. We both were pretty equally accurate, but he, being a bullseye shooter often didn't get the shot off before the chuck went back down in his/her hole. Once, on a cloudy day, we spied a woodchuck from a hillside, just behind a farmers cow barn who let us shoot chucks, (since cows can step into a chuck hole and break a leg). Anyway, we spied a chuck standing vertical, about 600 yards away and down about 200 feet below our position. It was a cloudy day, but we managed to take a bead, about 2 1/2 feet above the chuck. We each fired (prone with a rest I made from 1/2" copper pipe) and missed, but the chuck remained standing. My turn again, and I elevated to about 3 1/2 feet above and fired. I saw a flash in the scope, about where thought the chuck was and was instantly elated...then the flash got bigger and we heard a loud 60-cycle hummmm and the electric transmission line that we hadn't seen, due to it being a cloudy day and the fact that the power line was nearly invisible against the grass background. The power company wasn't impressed, even though we borrowed the farmer's phone and called the CMP Line Foreman out on a Saturday to repair the line. We couldn't have hit that line if we were trying to, but we were fixated on the woodchuck, about twice as far away and below the lines. Besides, the power line was cutting across an open grazing pasture, following an old trolley line bed. (The company smartened-up a few years ago and relocated the line to where they can maintain it more easily.)
 
Skylerbone said:
https://www.opticsplanet.com/aero-p...upper-receiver.html?_iv_availability=in-stock $505.74

https://www.cdnnsports.com/ar15-custom-upper-16-556-pencil-bfi-m4-handguard.html $199.99

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...ul-acs-l-edition-black-no-magazine-39607.html $229.99

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-5-56-nitride-mpi-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-516446953.html $69.99

$1005.71 with budget room for a nice trigger and charging handle. Or just buy that RRA and consider the Bushmaster upper as a $200 SD/HD option.
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Is that aero-precision upper varmint-grade? What MOA or minute of woodchuck are we talking about here? Are BCG and charging handles swappable between uppers? Does the PSA lower have a woodchuck-grade trigger?
 
BringHomeTheBacon said:
Is that aero-precision upper varmint-grade? What MOA or minute of woodchuck are we talking about here? Are BCG and charging handles swappable between uppers? Does the PSA lower have a woodchuck-grade trigger?
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Probably around 1 moa with good ammo it really likes. Probably 2-4 moa with 5.56 bulk ammo.
 
JShirley said:
I tried a 10.5" upper without sights at close range, just out of curiosity. I wasn't even on paper, FWIW.

John
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I have been practicing at LiveLife’s point shooting. I find I am just about as successful at seven yards transitioning across steel plates with an AR pistol as a Ruger MkIII or Buckmark.

Admittedly these are just rimfire weapons. I’ll have to imagine a centerfire rifle to be a bit more to manage, as I won’t be trying it that close.;)

BringHomeTheBacon said:
Does the PSA lower have a woodchuck-grade trigger?
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Any AR can have any type of trigger you wish. It’s only another two small pins to replace it. Any trigger can be learned. It isn’t as big a blockade to precision hunting as is sometimes made.

A nicer trigger adds expense though.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
The accuracy doesn't change with a proper load for the barrel length, though the range may certainly change due to the change in velocity, which isn't really the same thing.
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If the barrel is what dictates the resulting velocity, that allows achieving the accuracy goal at a given range or not and reducing it, gets you further from said goal, I contend it is the barrel length that allows one to prevail over the other in accuracy.

On the flip side there is also an argument against barrels longer than needed, introducing harmful harmonics. To that end there are some that make barrels as short as they feel they can get away with and even install them in a fashion that is trying to stretch them to reduce the phenomenon.

They are generally only for 100/200 yard games though.

996CD074-C844-4D2E-8C88-F14A42C5275A.jpeg
 
Demi-human said:
I

A contemporary, rack-grade bolt action will be cheaper and slightly more accurate. For offhand shooting of ground squirrels at 100 yards a Ruger American it’s a valuable weapon. They aren’t Dodge Omnis, or Pontiac Vibes, they are the Toyota Tacoma of rifles. Cheap, effective and just won’t die.

It truly is a shame you didn’t fire it one single time. Are they glass smooth benchrest rifles? Of course not, not for less than $500. But they are accurate, and you even had one.

.
Click to expand...

I have a Ruger American Ranch. I appreciate how light and handy it is. I don't appreciate that I can't get a quick follow-up shot, because it won't feed if I try to work the bolt rapidly. I'm hoping a chamber polish might help, but a rifle shouldn't be incapable of feeding ammo quickly
 
I have heard they sound like a zipper when being operated.:eek:
I’d talk to LoonWulf about it. I believe he had worked a few over. I think it’s more than just bore paste as a lapping compound for the bolt.

But as far as the accuracy prerequisites, forum members here vouch for their accuracy and usability, at this lowest of price point. A point much lower than a “Varmint AR”.

However, I also pray at the alter of Savage, also known for not the smoothest of bolt throws, I guess, so it’s not like I’m advocating for Ruger anything.;)

But now I fear we stay a little from the topic at hand.
 
I will say that, what you call what you hunt and where matters.
My woodchuck is huge. I can hit that with a 1911pistol at fourty yards. I don’t kid, she’s well fed. I have no idea by who…:oops:
Our ground squirrels are smaller than our chipmunks around here. 4-5” and skinny. That takes a lot more precision. Any AR is capable of the former at 200, not all of them can do the latter. Regardless barrel length.


So, @BringHomeTheBacon , what AR are you thinking of getting?:)
 
Demi-human said:
I will say that, what you call what you hunt and where matters.
My woodchuck is huge. I can hit that with a 1911pistol at fourty yards. I don’t kid, she’s well fed. I have no idea by who…:oops:
Our ground squirrels are smaller than our chipmunks around here. 4-5” and skinny. That takes a lot more precision. Any AR is capable of the former at 200, not all of them can do the latter. Regardless barrel length.


So, @BringHomeTheBacon , what AR are you thinking of getting?:)
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I have my mind on the Rock River Arms. LAR-15 Series. It is a varmint rifle right out of the box. Varmint trigger and all. Not the cheapest pea-shooter out there. Here is where the decisions really get tough:

1/8 twist or 1/12 twist (available only in a 24" barrel) ?

16" barrel?
18" barrel?
20" barrel?
24" barrel? (1/8 or 1/12)

no 22" barrel available


https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=78


Scope: my Bushnell Banner 3x9
Ammo: the cheapest .223 or 5.56 I can get my mitts on
Bipod: the cheap Harris clone I already have
 
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